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Thread: How-to nerf warriors, player suggestions

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    i still think making the tourney realms playable full-time just for arenas (they are set up strictly for pvp anyways) will be the best way to go about it. then you can have prot warrior dmg buffed and have less baked in threat on the live realms which will be the pve side. then you can have your pvp vendors and premade 80s for the tourney realms like it is now and have less dmg done by x class for y ability and have limited pve item access (maybe just certain weapons and offset items). the pvp jocks wont have to complain anymore about "omg why cant you nerf prot warriors?! they kill my mage too easy!" and blizz wont have to hear from the pve nerds saying "well, you cant nerf x class/spec because..." and post math comparable to einstein's theory of relativity on why you shouldn't nerf it.

    edit: Jon Pardo during an interview during the five year anniversary of wow--
    "If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game"

    I think this is a novel idea, but it'd probably never happen. I was gonna quote that interview too, he basically said if he could change anything it'd be to never institute arenas, that or institute it separate from the regular wow world, because of all of the balancing issues it creates.

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  2. #22
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    He also said or wait to release it as a more balanced whole.

  3. #23
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    Seems like the final result is a Warbringer nerf, at least for now. That doesn't really affect PvE much.
    World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> What Shall the Prot Nerf Be?

  4. #24
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    sigh... there goes any chance of enjoying a full arena of prot pvp.

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  5. #25
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    lame, now i go back to sitting in frostnovas for half a match all the time. brb leveling a mage...
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  6. #26
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    I don't seem to have much problems with prot warriors, unless I get my chaos bolt spell reflected, then I'm just gone.

  7. #27
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    The warbringer nerf will be an irritant in rare pve but not game-breaking. Sadly they're considering more:

    "We are also considering some changes to Shield Slam to where it won't affect players in normal tanking gear but it will affect the scaling of block value for those who are stacking it. This isn't guaranteed as we still want to make sure it doesn't have a real negative effect on PvE, but in turn we may have the threat caused by Shield Slam just straight increased. We'll see how this goes as we test it internally."

    We're already low dps tanks. I don't want to fall even lower.

  8. #28
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    i don't know where they are going with the shield block value penalty. most pvp prot warriors don't even use block gear.
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  9. #29
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    This totally blows. I didn't accumulate full block gear for damage shield, I also did it for good slams. I used to use it for heroics because full-block set was so good for threat, as it is right now I have to skip using block gear because most PUG players will out agro my threat in full block. The great shield slams helped this a bit, but now I get the feeling I might as well shard the whole set.
    Damn, I had 4 years to adjust to warrior always getting the shaft, but right now I'm very mad at this news.
    The anti-snare removal move is also very disappointing, although more understandable. I never pvp so I can't judge how OP it was, it certainly will diminish our possibilities in some PVE occasions, but since we're still mobile enough and I have EA as gnome it doesn't sound so bad.

    The only thing still gives me hope that this apparently intended block value diminishment is only yet theoretical
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  10. #30
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    Warbringer nerf is a hit to PvE as well. Can't they just add a "does not remove player-cast snares" check to it.

    I think the intention here is to make it easier to counter prot warriors, because there isn't really anything that counters them well as far as I understand (except prot paladins).

    Couldn't they make it easier to counter prot warriors by not letting Shield Bash and HS silence work on players to make things less ridiculous against casters? Stuns are annoying yes, but only casters get silenced after the stuns wear off.
    Last edited by Stengel; 01-09-2010 at 03:42 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    i don't know where they are going with the shield block value penalty. most pvp prot warriors don't even use block gear.
    No, it doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

    Additionally, as PvE Warriors already hit the DR curve and potentially the hardcap already with Shield Block active on SS (which is 25% of the time, at least) any change to this will be a flat reduction in PvE DPS, no matter what.

    Innate threat is not really the direction I feel like the Warrior community wants to go--quite the contrary.
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  12. #32
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    Going over the prot talents & abilities, I was considering what talents it were exactly that 'broke' PvProt. Granted that I don't have a whole lot of PVP experience, so I will be looking at this as potential points that do not nerf PvE further down the drain.

    * Imp Spell Reflect; Relatively useless in PvE, can be rather OP in smaller groups such as arena.
    Proposed Change; Give it an X chance on reflecting to cast SR on you again.
    * Imp Disarm: 10% damage is a lot when bursted down, yet there are plenty other ways to give this damage for PvE.
    Proposed Change: Changing it to crit chance (which is severely reduced by resi on high end arena) or make it 1/2% per application of sunder armor.
    * Conc. Blow: Although less of a concern than other items in this list, still powerful with a 5s stun. Alternative debuffs could be used to up PvE utility without making them OP in PvP
    Proposed Change: Target takes increased Thunder Clap damage.
    * Gag Order (+Shield Bash): This is probably one of the big killers. Unfortunately, it's one of the best tools in a tank kit as well.
    Proposed Change: First take off the Daze. There is Spamstring, Piercing Howl and range-closers enough to not having to Daze on Shield Bash.
    * Warbringer: Too high mobility according to all the PvP queue.
    Proposed Change: Remove either Charge or Intercept snare removal.
    * Devastate: If any nerf is done on damage, they should give use more damage on Devastate instead of threat to compensate.
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  13. #33
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    A not so hard solution to Shield Slam would be scaling it with defense in addition to SBV, similar to IBF or AD. With that in place, it might even be possible to remove the current diminishing returns / cap on the block value scaling. It would also help warriors scaling a bit better with stats, something they are currently not that good at.

  14. #34
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    Making a transference talent or some abilities scale based on Defense wouldn't be a terrible thing at all, considering that Defense continues to be a very valuable stat for Warriors and has increasing amounts on all tiers of gear.

    It would solve many problems with the PvP situation considering that PvE tanking gear is rarely--if ever--used to great effect in arenas.
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  15. #35
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    Making a transference talent or some abilities scale based on Defense wouldn't be a terrible thing at all, considering that Defense continues to be a very valuable stat for Warriors and has increasing amounts on all tiers of gear.

    It would solve many problems with the PvP situation considering that PvE tanking gear is rarely--if ever--used to great effect in arenas.
    Interesting idea, please keep coming up with this sort of stuff.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Going over the prot talents & abilities, I was considering what talents it were exactly that 'broke' PvProt. Granted that I don't have a whole lot of PVP experience, so I will be looking at this as potential points that do not nerf PvE further down the drain.

    * Imp Spell Reflect; Relatively useless in PvE, can be rather OP in smaller groups such as arena.
    Proposed Change; Give it an X chance on reflecting to cast SR on you again.
    * Imp Disarm: 10% damage is a lot when bursted down, yet there are plenty other ways to give this damage for PvE.
    Proposed Change: Changing it to crit chance (which is severely reduced by resi on high end arena) or make it 1/2% per application of sunder armor.
    * Conc. Blow: Although less of a concern than other items in this list, still powerful with a 5s stun. Alternative debuffs could be used to up PvE utility without making them OP in PvP
    Proposed Change: Target takes increased Thunder Clap damage.
    * Gag Order (+Shield Bash): This is probably one of the big killers. Unfortunately, it's one of the best tools in a tank kit as well.
    Proposed Change: First take off the Daze. There is Spamstring, Piercing Howl and range-closers enough to not having to Daze on Shield Bash.
    * Warbringer: Too high mobility according to all the PvP queue.
    Proposed Change: Remove either Charge or Intercept snare removal.
    * Devastate: If any nerf is done on damage, they should give use more damage on Devastate instead of threat to compensate.
    Some decent suggestions.

    Improved Spell Reflect - This wouldn't be bad since currently it isn't in many PVE tanking specs.

    Improved Disarm - Again, not in many PVE tanking specs for current content so this would also be fine. The increased damage component to this talent has yet to be worth it with since most mobs you would want to disarm can't be.

    Concussion Blow - There is really no reason to change this one. If they are going to change something, I would rather keep the threat/DPS and lose the stun. Obviously I'd prefer they just leave it alone.

    Gag Order - This is one of the more effective things we have in PVE, although less so for raiding. I don't have a problem with them putting heavy diminishing returns on it's affect for PVP - it should not change at all in PVE. If they can't figure out how to do that, leave it alone.

    Warbringer - I don't care that much about the snare removal at the moment. If Intervene still removes snares, great.

    Devastate - Don't support any changes to Devastate. This has always been a lackluster part of our rotation and was finally made decent.

    --

    Heroic Throw - could be made to have a chance to silence in PVP, no change is acceptable in PVE.
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  17. #37
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    For me, instead of preventing Warbringer from being able to break roots/snares with Charge and Intercept, I would be ok with a Juggernaut style nerf, increasing the CD on Charge to 20 secs or so. That would hamper Prot mobility without breaking it, but would have little impact on PvE (that I can see anyway).

    Another option would be to put Charge on the controlled stun DR list (along with Intercept, Conc and SW) to prevent players from using it so easily as the start of a kill setup.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Making a transference talent or some abilities scale based on Defense wouldn't be a terrible thing at all, considering that Defense continues to be a very valuable stat for Warriors and has increasing amounts on all tiers of gear.

    It would solve many problems with the PvP situation considering that PvE tanking gear is rarely--if ever--used to great effect in arenas.
    I've been a big fan of defense effecting our dmg output for some time now. However that would not help in this case. Why? Because the prot pvpers are actually wearing pve tanking gear in some of their slots. The common set up includes 2pct10, Signet of the Earthshaker and one or two other pieces of block value gear which have defense. From there they tend to gear the remainder of the slots with pve dps gear rich in armor pen (e.g. hellfrozen bonegrinder). From there they're gemming straight arp.

    It's a confluence of stats and the imba quality of the 2pct10 in the arena context that's the issue.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post

    It's a confluence of stats and the imba quality of the 2pct10 in the arena context that's the issue.
    But did that bonus not come about as a result of capping SS dmg, as a result of doubling block value in 3.2? Blizzard are creating their own future problems by applying quick fix solutions that bite them in the ass after the next patch in an attempt to balance everything (and correct past mistakes).

    As gear scales (and it always will) SS dmg wont due to the fact its level based, it was always going to fall behind. And the lack of SBV gear in 3.3 makes the 2p bonus necessary for pve, but its having the usual knock-on effect in pvp. I lose faith in Blizzard, they make changes and everything goes quiet, then a content patch throws everything out of kilter, arena players complain about imablance, and nerfs need to be made to shut them up. Which has a knock-on effect for pve warriors.

    For me, I would love to see the whole system redesigned, make pve gear invalid for pvp to prevent flavour of the month gimmick builds, that way after the classes are balanced all that needs to be done is balance the pvp gear they wear. Then skill, co-ordination and communication become the only imba things an arena team has.

  20. #40
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    A very obvious point that I've read elsewhere is that Warbringer has been in the game for over a year, and hasn't been considered overpowered until recently.

    Whatever it is that made prot overpowered must have been a recent change... hmm let's see:

    Quote Originally Posted by patchnotes for 3.2
    Protection
    • Devastate: Weapon damage and bonus per Sunder Armor on the target increased by 100%. This ability now requires a shield to be equipped
    I postulate that it was this buff that created a new breed of protection warriors in pvp, those maximizing Devastate damage (instead of Shield Slam).

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