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Thread: How-to nerf warriors, player suggestions

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    I've been a big fan of defense effecting our dmg output for some time now. However that would not help in this case. Why? Because the prot pvpers are actually wearing pve tanking gear in some of their slots. The common set up includes 2pct10, Signet of the Earthshaker and one or two other pieces of block value gear which have defense. From there they tend to gear the remainder of the slots with pve dps gear rich in armor pen (e.g. hellfrozen bonegrinder). From there they're gemming straight arp.

    It's a confluence of stats and the imba quality of the 2pct10 in the arena context that's the issue.
    It's still possible, it just depends on the scaling. They might have some defense, but not a whole lot.

    Some time ago, I would have agreed about making something like that a talent, but now I would only scale SS and maybe Devastate with it, like I suggested. It is just a band-aid until the defense stat is removed from the game in 4.0 anyway.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengel View Post
    A very obvious point that I've read elsewhere is that Warbringer has been in the game for over a year, and hasn't been considered overpowered until recently.

    Whatever it is that made prot overpowered must have been a recent change... hmm let's see:

    I postulate that it was this buff that created a new breed of protection warriors in pvp, those maximizing Devastate damage (instead of Shield Slam).
    Even then, that was a 3.1 buff, ie April time, and it still wasn't OP, even with a slow 1h wep. No one whined about Warbringer's snare/root breaker back when Prot had low dmg, but gear scaling and changing gear choices (to favour str, arp, crit etc) has buffed our dmg to the point where roflstomp classes cant cope as easily with us, which makes us OP hence the QQ. And coz there are many classes who are finding us frustrating = more QQ = inc nerfs.

    But Blizz always submit when pressured so we will likely be hammered. Either that, or this is a precursor to future changes to prot warriors incoming in cata (ie buffed damage but less control). They stated a while back that they intend to alter the rage mechanic so prot get more rage from dmg. This promise of a nerf looks like its intended to keep the moaners happy, as opposed to balancing classes. Enough to buy them some time until they come up with a real solution.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anomandaris View Post
    Even then, that was a 3.1 buff, ie April time,
    We're talking about patch 3.2 which was around september.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengel View Post
    We're talking about patch 3.2 which was around september.
    Sorry mate, my bad, I just checked it out, you are right. Seems my memory sucks as much as my pvp hehe.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    I've been a big fan of defense effecting our dmg output for some time now. However that would not help in this case. Why? Because the prot pvpers are actually wearing pve tanking gear in some of their slots. The common set up includes 2pct10, Signet of the Earthshaker and one or two other pieces of block value gear which have defense. From there they tend to gear the remainder of the slots with pve dps gear rich in armor pen (e.g. hellfrozen bonegrinder). From there they're gemming straight arp.

    It's a confluence of stats and the imba quality of the 2pct10 in the arena context that's the issue.
    Is that actually the case though?

    All the highest-ranked Prot PvPers I see are wearing primarily ArP-oriented DPS gear--including the 2 piece T10 DPS set, usually an ArP proc trinket, and 4ish pieces of PvP gear.

    Could be it's different on the lower-end, but all the higher-end ones are wearing pretty similar sets as above from what I've seen. I'm not an expert on that, though, I just haven't actually seen any of them in tanking gear when I've looked.

    Honestly, this actually seems more sensible to me as stacking ArP and wearing PvE DPS gear would yield a much bigger increase in both sustained and burst damage due to Devastate/CB/Shockwave scaling rather than Shield Slam which is already cappable or near-cappable with Shield Block active without any +Block Value items.

    Either way, they don't maintain nearly enough Defense on gear to make any substantial scaling based on Defense very useful, from what I've seen. (At least not compared to the level of Defense PvE tanks will have.)
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  6. #46
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    We're not saying different things, really. The gearing I was referring to was at the highest levels. Alloran, the prot warrior currently holding rank one on bg9 by a long shot as prot is the de facto example to go by. You can periodically check in on his armory and see him in his pvp rig. I've yet to see him equip enough for 4 pieces of pvp gear.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Going over the prot talents & abilities, I was considering what talents it were exactly that 'broke' PvProt. Granted that I don't have a whole lot of PVP experience, so I will be looking at this as potential points that do not nerf PvE further down the drain.

    * Imp Spell Reflect; Relatively useless in PvE, can be rather OP in smaller groups such as arena.
    Proposed Change; Give it an X chance on reflecting to cast SR on you again.
    * Imp Disarm: 10% damage is a lot when bursted down, yet there are plenty other ways to give this damage for PvE.
    Proposed Change: Changing it to crit chance (which is severely reduced by resi on high end arena) or make it 1/2% per application of sunder armor.
    * Conc. Blow: Although less of a concern than other items in this list, still powerful with a 5s stun. Alternative debuffs could be used to up PvE utility without making them OP in PvP
    Proposed Change: Target takes increased Thunder Clap damage.
    * Gag Order (+Shield Bash): This is probably one of the big killers. Unfortunately, it's one of the best tools in a tank kit as well.
    Proposed Change: First take off the Daze. There is Spamstring, Piercing Howl and range-closers enough to not having to Daze on Shield Bash.
    * Warbringer: Too high mobility according to all the PvP queue.
    Proposed Change: Remove either Charge or Intercept snare removal.
    * Devastate: If any nerf is done on damage, they should give use more damage on Devastate instead of threat to compensate.
    -Disarm, change it how you want, it won't affect pve, since no one specs it in pve, but if you're gonna nerf it, just remove the damned talent, it's practically useless.

    -Imp Spell reflect, it's 1 spell every 10 seconds, and you have to be within 20 yards of your teammates, and can easily be consumed by a warlock's imp fireball, or a totem, or an icelance, etc. It's helpful to reflect cc's, but it's not some sort of invincible shield that goes up. I again, blame most QQ about prot warriors is people NOT willing to learn hwo to beat them. See the Spell reflect icon appear over the warrior? icelance the reflect away.

    -2 stuns from 1 class, nothing new, stupid to complain about imo. already has 30 second cd, so it's not spammable

    -No prot build that wants to do damage has piercing howl, if it has piercing howl, it isn't killing people. This is fallacy #1, prot warriors don't have Piercing Howl, deep wounds/impale, 15% boosted devastate, 16% arp from bstance, AND 20% shockwave/ss damage, it's at best 2/5, maybe 3/5

    -Shield Bash/Gag Order* - Go ahead and remove daze off of shield bash, having an interrupt that that requires being in melee distance on a 12 second cd is hardly scary.

    - Warbringer* - and we're back to being guys stuck in the ground or kited around the entire game. thanks blizz. Might as well be arms, at least i can bladestorm out of it. Remove the intercept part of it then, sure, but we'll still get kited to death since several classes have ranged snares that they can reapply over and over again.

    - Devastate damage is only high if you go devastate specific builds, which in turn means low shield slam build, which means there is no mythical 5k devastate followed by 10k, 15k, 20k (etc) shield slams. They don't happen, not in pvp gear, and definitely not chained together.



    I'll reiterate again what I think will probably balancing th eplaying field for not just prot warriors but for several other classes and prevent future conflicts.

    Disable PvE set bonuses from Arenas. That's it. Shockwave/SS damage boost for t10 to help tanking warriors? Sure!, useless in pvp. Devastate 5% damage, or 10% crit boost? useless in pvp. Think about when Rogues abused PvE gear with Cheatdeath to become the "OP" class of the season. They made it so you HAD to wear pvp gear, and that in turn balanced their damage in arenas because they had to stop using pve gear otherwise they lose survivability. You can do the same to prot warriors and any other zomg 2pc/4pc abusing classes by removing the pve set bonuses, which 1) forces them to use pvp gear likely, and 2) negates a large portion of what people QQ about against prot warriors.


    And yes, there is a counter to prot warriors, and lots of the times, it comes in the hand of casters still, and rogues. The fights I win the most are against players who don't know how to counter me, not that they CAN'T. if I was so uncounterable, believe me, i wouldn't be stuck at 2k in 3v3s.

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  8. #48
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    I pretty much fully agree with you Kaze.

    On a very related note, I read the post today stating, "In the next minor content patch we're making a change to the tier-10 elemental shaman 4-piece set bonus. In addition to lowering Lava Burst's cooldown, this bonus also no longer requires Flame Shock to be present in order for Lava Burst to be a guaranteed critical strike," and couldn't help thinking, "lolarenas."

    Not to say Shaman are good/bad/otherwise in arenas (frankly, I have no clue) but it's difficult when PvE setbonuses--especially the 'game changing' types of ones--enter into the PvP scenarios. They aren't balanced for PvP, nor should they be. (I've certainly been gibbed by elemental shaman burst before--so the idea of them being able to rail off Lava Bursts with lower cooldowns and no Flame Shock dispelling counter/warning opportunity does sound as if it could be potentially comp-changing.)

    Removing PvE set bonuses in arenas and battlegrounds does sound like a very sensible thing to do to me.
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  9. #49
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    I think we're all in agreement. Further I'd be all for the inverse as well. Drop more slots of loot from Archavon style bosses if that prohibits quick segues for players between the two modes.

    Only thing I'm confused about from Kaz' post is the rogue comment. As prot, I eat rogues for breakfast historically. Has something changed recently?

  10. #50
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    I would just be happy with a nerf to prot abilities, ie SS, CB, SW and Dev to no longer benefit from Arp. For Cataclysm, I think Blizz need to change PvP. Either make the high end PvP gear available from BGs so we don't need to Arena for it (I would love that as I'm not good enough for Arena just yet) or make the Arena PvP gear only. That way any imbalance in PvE gear wont be viable, so they only need to worry about class balance and PvP gear balance, rather than putting us through this yo-yo misery everytime a new patch is released. Blizz tend to go for the cheapest option everytime, quickfix solutions that only compound their errors over time.

    'A handful of Prot Warriors are taking advantage of Arp, lets nerf the lot of them muwhahaha! If we kill Prot Warr PvP, it doesn't matter, the silly fools will still pay their money, and we can fix it 6 months down the line, muwhahaha!'

    Unfortunately, I'm growing quite fond of my Maurader in Warhammer Online, so I may not be around to see Blizz correct their mistakes. But as an aside I think they are beginning to deserve disloyalty, how much longer will the 'class balance' issue continue in this game? Is it going to crop up each time a new content patch is released?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    I think we're all in agreement. Further I'd be all for the inverse as well. Drop more slots of loot from Archavon style bosses if that prohibits quick segues for players between the two modes.

    Only thing I'm confused about from Kaz' post is the rogue comment. As prot, I eat rogues for breakfast historically. Has something changed recently?
    Rarely do you encounter rogues without another dps'er helping them, the rogues stun locks keep you in place long enough for him + partner to wittle you down pretty low. Remember envenom is poison damage, and all your armor and sbv does absolutely nothing to it. Once he gets you to a low enough point you have to blow cds or die with them unused so you're first one to blow is likely shield wall and hope your healer can keep you up through it and save last stand for when you're really low <30% or so. You pop shield wall, the rogue dismantles you, shield wall is now debuffed, wasted, and you take even more damage without your shield, and you die, even if you pop last stand. Envenom has basically made rogues destroy everything including plate wearers.

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  12. #52
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    More on the shield slam nerf:
    Warrior (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Shield Slam changes
    The diminishing returns on shield slam damage now starts to kick in when shield block value is more than 1960 (at level 80). It maxes at behaving as if your shield block value is 2072 when your block value is actually 3160 (again, at level 80). Remember this includes the scaling from both shield block value on gear AND shield block value from Strength. (Source)

  13. #53
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    Basically what this means is that there is more or less no Shield Slam scaling at all.

    Warriors can reach 1800-1900 Block Value without any Block Value items in T9 gear, and exceed it using the T9 Helm/Legs. Obviously, we exceed it regularly with Shield Block active.

    Having the "diminishing returns" is a bit fruitless. Adding 1,100 Block Value to increase your Shield Slam damage by 110 points? Who is going to waste item slots trying to do that?

    Anyway, as for the actual impact of this change on PvE Warriors. The previous DR cap kicked in at 2400 Block Value. Meaning, the pre-DR cap was actually lower than the hardcap now by quite a large amount. The actual hardcap was 3160 Block Value translating as if you had 2761 Block Value.

    This means PvE Warriors are most likely losing 689 base damage on every Shield Slam with Shield Block up. The average interval between Shield Slams is 4.78s, and thus this will apply to roughly 2 Shield Slams per 40s cycle.

    So, all in all, this is probably around a 50-75 DPS decrease and 120-180 TPS decrease unless they adjusted the innate threat for someone with zero Block Value gear. For those with a few Block Value items in their PvP set, it will be a much larger nerf. I will be able to run more accurate numbers tonight.

    Kinda makes the doubling of Block Value on gear look like a bit of a waste of time.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-12-2010 at 02:51 AM.
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  14. #54
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    There's no specifics on the threat changes yet are there? The blue post mentioned a buff to threat.

    At this point, wouldn't it be better for shield slam to scale with defense rating? That's a stat with no interest to PVP, essential for PVE and has about as much to do with shields as block value does at this point. When rogues were wearing full pve gear and relying on cheat death for survival, they made cheat death scale with resilience. When DKs were doing something similar with IBF, they made that scale with defense. There is precedent for this, and it seems like less of a sticking plaster than this latest cludge.

  15. #55
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    I would personally suggest making it scale based on a % of base block value on your shield (to get some consistant, sensible, and linear ilevel/gear scaling in there instead of relying on Block Value as a whole) and then modified by Defense.

    Just making Shield Slam stop scaling seems like a solution that doesn't have a lot of legs.
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  16. #56
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    I agree with Kaz as far as Warbringer is concerned. This was an excellent addition made in Lich King. One of the greatest strengths of warriors now is our mobility in combat. Death of dps/healers has been averted because of this ability. I suppose if they really would like to make it balanced they could take this ability away, take away hand of freedom, and not let druids shift out of snares. I'm drawing a blank as to whether or not DKs have a good snare removal (been a while since I played mine.) I'd say it's far more of a pve nerf than a pvp nerf to remove an ability such as that. If it's implemented and blizzard sees that they made a big boo-boo, I want reparations and a personal apology from the devs. It's like blizzard is trying to put a used band-aid on an open sore.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I would personally suggest making it scale based on a % of base block value on your shield (to get some consistant, sensible, and linear ilevel/gear scaling in there instead of relying on Block Value as a whole) and then modified by Defense.

    Just making Shield Slam stop scaling seems like a solution that doesn't have a lot of legs.
    Man I love this idea.


    With this change coming it makes Glyph of Blocking even more unappealing imo. As far as a threat gain it's going to almost be a non factor and mitigation it's already low (I think it reduced my dtps by 14 according to rawr). I'm liking my decision to switch to Glyph of Taunt even more now.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Kinda makes the doubling of Block Value on gear look like a bit of a waste of time.
    I had thought the purpose of that wasn't to buff SS, but to make the mitigation of block slightly more useful?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoso View Post
    With this change coming it makes Glyph of Blocking even more unappealing imo. As far as a threat gain it's going to almost be a non factor and mitigation it's already low (I think it reduced my dtps by 14 according to rawr). I'm liking my decision to switch to Glyph of Taunt even more now.
    Yes, I am likely to drop Glyph of Blocking soon given the current changes, as it offers very low value now.

    My opinion would be that Glyph of Barbaric Insults (to uberize the threat of Mocking Blow) or Glyph of Taunt are both more useful at this point. Glyph of Vigilance is also a good option for pure TPS, and on the correct DPSer is probably already worth 3 times the TPS as Glyph of Blocking.
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  20. #60
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    Does this change firmly shove "shield block" into the minor defensive cooldown category? Is there even any real point to use it as a damage/threat booster in pve anymore?

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