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Thread: I really worry about Prot Warrior DPS.

  1. #81
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    -Jimmy

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  2. #82
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    well the proposed changes....

    OK the Warbringer change sucks. I might have to start using Intervene more now. I loved using charge to break out of frost novas and such the few places it's used on a tank (ToC faction champions, HHor, etc)

    The shield slam change...we'll have to see exactly HOW they change it.If they affect it so it only hurts though who scale SBV insanely high, it's no big deal;. Plus it goes away in Cat so it's at worst a temporary setback. But if it affects all prot war tanks across the board, I will be concerned. SS is our pirmary threat generator.

  3. #83
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    Im quite concerned with state of prot warriors at the moment. Except for 2-3 encounter we are pretty much obsolete for the rest of them. I wonder what will happen when HM unlock.

    We already have least EH, least DPS when tanking and now they want to reduce our DPS even further.

    I suppose when HM come it is time for warriors to sit out ...

  4. #84
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    You ain't wiping on that guy at 22% because prot warrior dps is too low, lol.

    As for the pvp aspect of prot itself - as many people pointed out, it's about the multitude of abilities (silences, disarm, reflects, etc) that they bring to an arena team, not about how high their dps is.

    Really, i think reducing prot warr dps more and increasing their threat/point of damage will hardly have an effect on either pve or pvp.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baervar View Post
    You ain't wiping on that guy at 22% because prot warrior dps is too low, lol.

    As for the pvp aspect of prot itself - as many people pointed out, it's about the multitude of abilities (silences, disarm, reflects, etc) that they bring to an arena team, not about how high their dps is.

    Really, i think reducing prot warr dps more and increasing their threat/point of damage will hardly have an effect on either pve or pvp.
    I agree, we didn't wipe at 22% because of my dps. We did, however, lose our first deathwhisper kill because of a wipe at 20,000. Sure would've been nice to have around 200 more dps for that. I swapped out my tank weapon for a dps sword halfway through my anub kill in togc 10 two nights ago, and I'm pretty damn sure it made the difference in damage after our healer died at 3% and I killed him as the last raid member left alive.

    There are plenty of times where you come down to the wire. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it doesn't matter why you're at that pivotal moment, but it damn sure matters when one tank is doing 500-600 more dps than another tank.

  6. #86
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    Could they put higher dr (or some cap) on arp/crit (maybe str) when you're in def stance? That shouldn't affect the pve warriors at all and stop pvprot reaching stupid numbers.

    Also, it seems like alot of the issues people have with prot warriors in pve comes down to the fact that all their contributions to the raid are either matched or over-shadowed by other classes, leaving the prot warrior feeling a bit obsolete.
    It would be really good to see blizz allow us to use (some of) the abilities that are unique to us in the raid environment. Let us be able to disarm some raid bosses, give us a reason to use imp. spell reflect, make something in the raid stunable! Not so you NEED a prot warrior for progression, but so there are more +++'s to having one around.
    I'm pretty sure there would be much less QQ about warrior dps if there were other things to balance the scales.

    And if you're dps isn't high enough, get new dps.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abm View Post
    Could they put higher dr (or some cap) on arp/crit (maybe str) when you're in def stance? That shouldn't affect the pve warriors at all and stop pvprot reaching stupid numbers.
    you cant really do anything to def stance since pvprot doesnt use def stance other than to disarm and shield wall/shield block then they get right back into battle stance.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    you cant really do anything to def stance since pvprot doesnt use def stance other than to disarm and shield wall/shield block then they get right back into battle stance.
    Fair enough. I probably should have thought of that... But in that case they should disable shield abilities in battle/zerker stance (or something like that anyway).

  9. #89
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    so now you gimp arms pvp by having them switch into def stance and then equip a shild to spell reflect? what about interrupting in low rage situation and you can't afford the stance switch to zerker for pummel? having "shield only" abilities only work in def stance would make arms pvp even more clunky than it already is.
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  10. #90
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    Not sure how that's 'gimping arms pvp'. They would already have the issue with switching to zerker at low rage. And they just need to add 2 lines to their marco - /cast def stance, /cast battle.

  11. #91
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    having to endure the 1 sec gcd induced by weapon swapping along with the 1 second gcd with stance switching means you won't be able to spell reflect anything lower than a 2.5 second cast (latency and human reaction times added in as well). you would have to sit in def stance most of the time against casters then if you ever plan on spell reflecting cyclones/polys/chaos bolts/etc ever again as arms. now you are back to the point where most people who play pvprot are at, arms is too clunky and prot is easier to do those sort of things.
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  12. #92
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    This to me looks like worst case scenario. Lower damage / higher threat values are the kind of changes I never, ever wanted to see happen. Burst is the problem, they are suggesting a nerf to Shield Slam damage yet not changing any of the abilities that contribute to burst damage.

    As well as that, they're not playing it very carefully either. Instead of proposing one change and seeing how that pans out, they're proposing a nerf to Warbringer and Shield Slam, as well as a hint that there might be more changes to come on top of that. That to me is very ham-fisted, and considering how much they overnerfed DK tanks before, I just don't have faith that these won't significantly effect PVE tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abm View Post
    Also, it seems like alot of the issues people have with prot warriors in pve comes down to the fact that all their contributions to the raid are either matched or over-shadowed by other classes, leaving the prot warrior feeling a bit obsolete.
    It would be really good to see blizz allow us to use (some of) the abilities that are unique to us in the raid environment. Let us be able to disarm some raid bosses, give us a reason to use imp. spell reflect, make something in the raid stunable! Not so you NEED a prot warrior for progression, but so there are more +++'s to having one around.
    I'm pretty sure there would be much less QQ about warrior dps if there were other things to balance the scales.
    I would guarantee there would be even more complaints if something like that was to happen. All Prot Warriors want is to compete at the same level as other tanks. Gimmick encounters is like teacher coming along and giving us a special assignment, "Here's something you can do so you don't feel left out."

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    having to endure the 1 sec gcd induced by weapon swapping along with the 1 second gcd with stance switching means you won't be able to spell reflect anything lower than a 2.5 second cast (latency and human reaction times added in as well). you would have to sit in def stance most of the time against casters then if you ever plan on spell reflecting cyclones/polys/chaos bolts/etc ever again as arms. now you are back to the point where most people who play pvprot are at, arms is too clunky and prot is easier to do those sort of things.
    Again fair enough. But 'limit the shields abilities' was just a throw away suggestion.
    To make it a more viable suggestion, perhaps you could limit cb and sw to def stance (maybe ss as well) - make them pvp primarily in def stance then you can arp/crit cap them. None of those suggestions have ramifications for pve or arms pvp......

    @Karlhungus
    Adding one or two gimmick encounters is absolutely the last thing I wanted to suggest - that would just be so... patronising.

    A gimmick encounter is: you spec/gear a particular way for one fight and then never again in your life.
    I'm talking about making a whole number of raid bosses disarmable or giving us a handful of reasons to take imp spell reflect.

    By 'perform at the same level as other tanks' I'm assuming you mean dps-wise and survivability-wise. I agree survivability-wise because we're all being hit by the same bosses. But I honestly don't understand why there's so much comparison between our dps and other tank classes. If you're going to compare, compare the WHOLE package, don't stew on tank dps because it makes you feel like a big man when you finally beat someone.

    In regard to the WHOLE package, ours is below average compared to other tanks - that's why we need some improvement, but it doesn't have to be a dps improvement. Imagine prot warriors taking imp disarm and using it against marrowgar or the blood princes, that would make it far, far more interesting than a bit more dps.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abm View Post
    @Karlhungus
    Adding one or two gimmick encounters is absolutely the last thing I wanted to suggest - that would just be so... patronising.

    A gimmick encounter is: you spec/gear a particular way for one fight and then never again in your life.
    I'm talking about making a whole number of raid bosses disarmable or giving us a handful of reasons to take imp spell reflect.
    An encounter designed around gimmick abilities like Improved Spell Reflect or Disarm, no matter how many of those encounters there are, is still a gimmick. It's the difference between a boss fight where players adapt to the mechanics, or a boss fight where the boss adapts to class abilities. Nobody wants that. Ever.

    To boot, Warrior talents are spread far too thin as it is, making such talents mandatory in order to tank as a warrior would be an utter disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abm View Post
    By 'perform at the same level as other tanks' I'm assuming you mean dps-wise and survivability-wise. I agree survivability-wise because we're all being hit by the same bosses. But I honestly don't understand why there's so much comparison between our dps and other tank classes. If you're going to compare, compare the WHOLE package, don't stew on tank dps because it makes you feel like a big man when you finally beat someone.

    In regard to the WHOLE package, ours is below average compared to other tanks - that's why we need some improvement, but it doesn't have to be a dps improvement. Imagine prot warriors taking imp disarm and using it against marrowgar or the blood princes, that would make it far, far more interesting than a bit more dps.
    And damage is part of the WHOLE package. It's not about feeling like 'a big man' or other such non-sequiturs, it's about one tanking class performing far worse than all other tanking classes. Tank DPS is relevant.

  15. #95
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    They're fine with paladins, DKs and druids beating warriors by 500-1000dps because they wouldn't want to unbalance arena. We all know arena is so damn important. I'm so sick of PVP screwing up my class. Every time I hear clothies in my guild complain about PVP prot warriors I wanna throat punch em.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    now you are back to the point where most people who play pvprot are at, arms is too clunky and prot is easier to do those sort of things.
    Agreed, the Arms playstyle has very bad flow, especially in PvP. Which brings up one of the suggestions I'd considered (and others have too) for Warriors:

    - remove Shield Bash
    - allow Pummel in all stances


    As for the Prot nerfs to help Arenas: very disappointing, considering their lack of actual DPS. And especially considering why Warbringer was added to the Prot tree to begin with: hey, we want to encourage Prot to PvP! Changing Warbringer to be inconsistent between which movement ability you use is extremely horrid design, and something they usually try to avoid.

    Best way to fix Prot PvP(IMO) isn't any of the simple fixes they're considering, but rather to get rid of the rogue-style stunfest that the talent tree is loaded with.

    I don't want Shockwave touched at this time, primarily because NPC movement has been buggy since v3.3 landed. I totally rely on having a way to stop an entire group of mobs and then get myself positioned while they're stunned, since there's no constant AE threat move for Warriors. If they fix the buggy movement introduced in v3.3, I could see Shockwave having different behavior; but not until then.

    Concussion Blow could do something other than damage+stun. I wouldn't care. Change it however you want.

    Imp Revenge could apply a 'take more damage' debuff instead of a stun, and I'd be happy there too. Or something else entirely; I'm not really picky.


    And they really really really need to just drop SBV now, and use Strength to entirely determine block value / Shield Slam damage.

  17. #97
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  18. #98
    It's kind of a sad statement on the current condition of tanking when Tank DPS is one of the issues that attracts a large chunk of attention. =/

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by almightypancake View Post
    I agree, we didn't wipe at 22% because of my dps. We did, however, lose our first deathwhisper kill because of a wipe at 20,000. Sure would've been nice to have around 200 more dps for that. I swapped out my tank weapon for a dps sword halfway through my anub kill in togc 10 two nights ago, and I'm pretty damn sure it made the difference in damage after our healer died at 3% and I killed him as the last raid member left alive.

    There are plenty of times where you come down to the wire. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it doesn't matter why you're at that pivotal moment, but it damn sure matters when one tank is doing 500-600 more dps than another tank.
    The # of limit-cases such as you presented, where prot warrior dps can actually make a difference is actually quite limited and i doubt it's something blizzard will look into pve-wise. I doubt tank dps is taken into consideration at all tbh when new encounters are designed, even dps-race types.

    Basically you wiping on 20k on lady isn't your fault for not having 200 extra dps. If you would have capped raid-dps because of low aggro generation then yes, you could have felt bad about it and say that prot warr dps is too low and it affects threat generation. Or you could blame the roges for not using tricks on you and doing it on each other :P

    My point is that the effective output of damage a tank does should not be vital to any encounter; threat should be.
    Grats on your togc down though, bet that must've felt good after such a close call :P Also i like your username D:

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It's kind of a sad statement on the current condition of tanking when Tank DPS is one of the issues that attracts a large chunk of attention. =/
    Well, I'm not so much worried about that in pve if I would be able to keep my target against well... let's for instance say dps warriors and warlocks, their TPS is of the chart sometimes as far as dps goes.
    Although, if you nerf the prot dps of a warrior, won't you be giving them even less chance to a spot in raids these days, mostly? There are a lot of ppl out there that allready shun prot warriors from their raids coz of the low dps.

    If you're looking to PUGs to improve your gear (for instance you're in a social guild, coz you like that kinda atmosphere, but also want to progress) the dps factor might be a big set-off also. Prot Pallies for instance get accepted for practically every raid coz they have such a high DPS + TPS.

    And finally, the Arenas should really be seperated from the PVE game, coz why are the PVE-dedicated players among us forced to adopt to nerfs each time a player finds a niche in a spec that allows him to do more with his char? Now say really, how are we as warrior tanks to stay competitive if we get nerfed coz of PvP while the real cause of our existance is PvE???

    greetz

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