then prot warriors would just wear full pvp gear and gem arp or str and still put out good numbers.
I noted this wouldn't solve everything, but it would help to provide a means to at least partly decouple PVP balance from PVE efficiency. As things are now, changes are across the board. Separating the gearsets would allow foran additional layer for fine tuning.
For example, if PvE Prot needed Threat/Damage revised upwards, it could be easily accomplished through more STR on tank gear. And since the Arena guys wouldn't be able to wear the new PvE stuff in competition, Blizz would be free to make the change without hearing a bazillion whines that a Prot is OP in Battlegrounds. The same applies for other classes, as a matter of course.
Another alternative could be a DODA type setup where the classes and races are pre configured. But I think that would clearly be taking the idea too far.
I feel your pain mate I really do, I have myself only been able to push my dps to 3-3.5 k In ICC although that is in 10-man, I am still saying my prayers and hoping they will just nerf the pvp aspects in the abilities and let arms stay the pvp spec and then increase our damage in protection abit But i guess we will just have to wait and see :>
"He who laughs last didn't get it."
The issue with the Strength concept is that it would have to come out of the item budget. Additionally, the DPS of Protection scales fairly slowly with Strength, and as such it would be very difficult to both exceed the Strength found on DPS gear (which is what they are wearing in PvP) and still make up a substantial amount of damage.
If you want to ballpark it, 1 Strength is roughly 1-1.2 DPS for a Protection Warrior in an average setup and rotation. So, if you wanted to make a substantial cut to their PvP DPS (even 1k DPS) you would have to give such an exceptionally large amount of Strength on tanking gear that it would be pretty unwieldy.
I think it would be best to identify the reasons why people play Prot in PvP (for instance, the fact that Arms gets CC'd to death) and deal with removing some of the inclination to use the spec.
Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!
I think there are 2 major factors here that come with the QQ and the shift.
1) Most players that are used to destroying Warriors (read Arms warriors) are now struggling somewhat with the prot warriors because you don't need all these fancy macros and awesome uber ping/latency to spell reflect, and silence/interrupt, and they're crying nerf. The simple fact is that just like with most classes, prot warriors have counters too, but they're not the same as arms warrior counters, and that confuses players and makes them think prot warriors can beat anything anytime.
2) Prot is funner to play because it's less frustrating to play. Every arms warrior, even the highest rated ones, will tell you, being cc'd for 75% of a match is not uncommon. if it's not a poly or stun, it's a fear or a root. (yes, warriors are LONG gone from their, lol fear, i r warrior, since the removal of deathwish). The people who complain likely haven't ever sat in a pvp match as warrior, and counted the numerous times they've sat there helpless while their teammates are killed off because the warrior simply has nothing he can do aside from 1 pvp trinket every 2 minutes. The mobility of warbringer is what MAKES prot pvp. It gives the warrior a way out of the snares/slows, and that's largely where the zomg prot is overpowered, is because classes are used to "peeling" off of dps by using their typical, frost nova/ nature's grasp/ frost trap/etc, and being able to walk away from the warrior while laughing. Prot eliminates that, and suddenly, they have to think, zomg now what. For me it's the paradigm shift that warriors are NOT kitable that needs to change, NOT prot warriors themselves. Strategy changes, will fix this problem, and that comes from the individual, and the players, NOT blizzard, but sadly, that won't happen.
Koj -that was just an example. It could just as easily be a 20% boost to Shield slam, or any number of other params...
The reason why prot is being so good right now is because their main draw back is lack of MS, and slightly lower burst than arms, so what did most prot warriors do? Find them in another arms warrior (mancleave) or hunter (my 3s team). I reiterate my point above, it's a strategy and paradigm shift to arena compositions, and instead of trying to figure out how to beat x team, they're simply dismissing it and crying about it. What about TSG teams? or Wizardcleave/Spellcleave teams? They still beat prot teams as well, aside from the very best ones (thinking Xanadu) but that's probably due to player skill more than anything.
As always Kaze you write out some really good points.
The one most in particular that I see being a huge part of it is the fact that You look like a warrior..smell like a warrior... but cant be treated like the "Johnny Q Public" Arms Warrior. In the same sense that you don't look at say a Disc Priest compared to a Shadow Priest with the very same tactics.
As you also pointed out its really a field of confusion of what to do. After all you can't look back on protection arena pvp like you can with arms which has a long history of being the pvp flavor. Arms has been the longstanding go to spec in Arena.
Protection comes in and does well, and people are looking back at their play books "we can't find a strat boss!" and their minds boggle. To the point that even the famous site worldofming has one of their bloggers complaining about it in detail. Along with their longtime comment trolls also shelling out their own distaste. Interestingly enough the site features a protection warrior blogger, who of course receives tons of love (lol).
The community as a majority it seems just isn't taking into consideration "Maybe we just figure something out."
You of course also pointed out some good counters to teams that house a Prot Warrior.
The dismay on the PVP side of all this is that even professionally sponsored teams are making alot of noise about it terms of saying that it really is the inbalance of a class, without taking into consideration "maybe were just at a disadvantage because of our comp or methods."
Personally I'd eat up a stream of a tournament that included a team that utilizes a Prot Warrior like a majestic pizza made by an artisan.
The most stressful, yet provides the most gratification..
It's easy to balance PvE and PvP, I'm not sure why Blizzard has a problem with it
PvE: Does X amount of Damage (hell, I don't know how much damage the tool tip says)
PvP: Does X-Y amount of Damage
if you read what every person who plays prot in pvp says for their reason why we play the spec, is because of the mobility (via warbringer out of snares) and less reliance on macros since we have everything we need in one stance, or 2 depending on if you sit in battle like me and only d stance for shield wall and disarm.
A thousand times this.
Also, my resto druid (with just full furious and no weaps) ruins prot in PvP, I just don't worry about them although its a reeeealy long fight. I have one (prot warrior) and know how to counter everything they are going to do and anticipate accordingly, same with my priest with far less gear. I fear arms warriors much more than prot, but as Blizzard has stated PvP is not balanced 1v1 so I just don't sweat it and know that some classes/specs will wreck me while I own others.
The gear argument is the same old BC rogue argument with PvE gear to a slightly lesser degree. I say lets see what the representation looks like for the next season before they go off an do anything with prot in PvP.
I don't know why balancing for arena has to be so hard. I mean they have things like sunwell radiance and the new minus dodge aura for ICC. Why not have a Arena aura. Only this aura does whatever is needed to balance whatever classes they want to balance and doesn't break any PVE talents/specs..ect. Prot PVP damage is too high, ok add a condition to arena aura to make armor to the teeth not work or lower Spell power for Warlocks or reduce stun durations for certain things. This Arena aura would be used strictly for balancing and wouldn't couple it with PVE. This would give them full control. My guess is world pvp balancing perfectly matters a whole lot less then arenas and pve. It would be nice to see pve tank dps balanced, showing up just above the healers on nearly every fight is disappointing.
The World of Warcraft Armory
This one at least is wearing quite a bit of tanking gear. Funny enough it's the kind of set up we'd take for a spin through heroics isn't it (we'd probably want a little more defense though)? From what I've heard, he's already hit the SS dmg cap, which combined with a GT proc = game over for a lot of players.
You can however see that the real problem might be tied to that 2 pc T10 bonus pushing SS to really extreme heights. Kind of like how the Shaman lava burst T9 bonus was changed because of pvp.
I realize I'm quote a post pretty early in the thread, and I have read though it. So I'll just add I'm not entirely sure it's just about people not knowing how to react to prot in arenas.
Look at it from Blizzard's point of view. Remember how Juggernaut got nerfed cuz it gave Arms too much mobility with a lot of burst? How does Warbringer giving more mobility (no stance dancing required) than the old Juggernaut and pairing that with a lot of utility mean it's balanced? And in some cases Prot can dish out as much burst as Arms.
I think there are two extremes and hopefully Blizzard fixes both and not just one. There are problems with arms being too kitable on one hand. I'm not sure the Juggernaut nerf was so necessary after all. On the other hand it's not entirely fair for a melee class to be virtually unkitable between trinket, fear break, SR, 3 warbringer snare removals...
PS: I'm glad this isn't the WoW forums, but in case someone wants to pull that card, yes I have a 900 rating as Arms and stopped prot pvp-ing when dual spec came out.
I think a good point has been made about prot simply being easier to play: not having to stancedance as much (or at all), and not having to bother with clunky weapon-swap macros is a big plus. Also being fairly snare resistance is also good.
If I would pvp as any spec it would be prot, simply because it's more comfortable to play than arms.
Blizzard really *really* hate making spells have seperate PvE and PvP functions. They much rather have a more elegant design (Like how art of war can be used for Flash of Light heals for extra pvp survival, whereas it's used almost exclusively for PvE exorcism DPS).
I can't say this PvP nerf is unwarranted considering the massive irritation that many classes have when facing prot warriors in PvP, and Blizzard seem to be on an irritation crackdown of late. Examples I can think of:
Nerfing the elemental set bonus burst damage.
Conflag burst nerfed (placed into a DoT afterward),
Pets changed to just get resilience instead of ignoring most of your WW/Cleave/DS damage.
Predatory strikes buff duration added to prevent discretionary instacyclones.
Touched by the light change to stop prot/holy healers from gemming stam.
Lay on Hands forbearance for ret lolduels.
So yes a class that can constantly stun, silence, daze, sometimes fear and occasionally get a dangerous burst out with (trinket procs)+disarm+recklessness+shield block was bound to eventually get nerfed once enough gear (and stats) were available to pump its DPS up to levels where it becomes a genuine terror at times; all the while being essentially unkitable due to warbringer.
I'm sure someone will say how rogues are way worse in pvp atm, and well, they are. But it always *feels* like it takes forever to nerf rogues, don't ask me why.
Still, there's always bladestorm.
mmochampion consolidated the latest blue posts about warrior changes, and ah, it looks kinda bad:
Warrior (Forums / Talent Calculator)
Warbringer changes in 3.3.2
In the next content patch the current plan is to change Warbringer a bit so that it no longer allows Charge and Intercept to break roots or snares but Intervene would remain unaffected.
We'll see if any further changes come down the pipeline. (Source)
Potential changes to Shield Slam
We are also considering some changes to Shield Slam to where it won't affect players in normal tanking gear but it will affect the scaling of block value for those who are stacking it. This isn't guaranteed as we still want to make sure it doesn't have a real negative effect on PvE, but in turn we may have the threat caused by Shield Slam just straight increased. We'll see how this goes as we test it internally. (Source)
Protection warriors in PvP
There are numbers in between 1 and 10. Players have a bad habit of viewing everything in terms of extremes. Yes we want Protection to be viable in PvP and most likely it still will be. Nerfing them because they are overpowered is not the same as them being useless.
Expecting the forum-visiting WoW community to ever come to a consensus on anything is unrealistic. That said, Protection warriors in PvP wasn't one of the arguments where there were a lot of very passionate souls on both sides. Many players suspected or were outright convinced that Prot was overpowered at worst or at least really frustrating to play against. On the other hand, we've posted several times that if the totality of their beef is just seeing Prot in PvP at all, then they're out of luck.
These arguments are somewhat similar to those rogues saying "But we're supposed to do high damage" and seeing nothing wrong with being 1000 to 2000 dps higher than others in their group. Yes you're supposed to be in PvP. You're not supposed to own PvP.
If you're one of those players with no interest in PvP and just don't want to see your tanking potential hurt, then I am slightly more sympathetic, but then again you should know what I'm going to say by now. WoW is a game with PvP and PvE components. Just because one of those isn't of interest to you personally doesn't mean we should neglect it. (And as I've said, we aren't interested in nerfing Prot warriors who are actually tanking.) (Source)
Warbringer will only allow a root/stun break when using intervene now. That kinda sucks :\
The shield slam changes are what really worries me. It won't affect players in normal tanking gear? That's probably because there is NO SBV on them now. The part of increasing threat on shield slam also sort of looks like going in the direction of "low damage/high threat" skills. I thought we were supposed to do away with that line of thinking? How can they implement this pre-Cataclysm? Without any mention of a rage mechanic overhaul, I can't see this going anywhere good.
Is there a place where we can see data on what classes/specs/teams makeup the top X arena teams? It just feels like Blizzard always favors tuning for PvP and just patches it up so PvE isn't affected on face value, if you can sort of understand what I mean.
Everything is FABULOUS with warrior tanks again.