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Thread: I really worry about Prot Warrior DPS.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Either way, it would do more damage in PvP than PvE due to the fact that we don't wear DPS gear yet PvP Prot often does. That's the main thing you are not considering. PvP Prot likely has more AP than the average PvE Prot, therefore AP scaling would not help the issue.
    I am considering that, and I know it would be a buff to damage in PVP as well as PVE, but from complaints about Prot PVP, it's the burst damage that's the problem. So it's not the amount of damage that Shield Slam does on average, but the amount of damage that it can do when you have disarm + shield block + trinket proc combining to do the 'wtf 15k crit' that are the problem.

    I say give us more powerful Shield Slam damage on average, but remove the gigantic burst capabilities.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    hmm, your 2-3k prot dps versus 5k dps tanking dk on a fight that has a tight enrage timer....

    yeh i'd take the dk.

    your spot might be safe, but alot more might not be. good thing i'm arms
    This is exactly the kind of thing I'm concerned about.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Well, I would prefer not to have to adapt to a DPS loss, and would prefer for them to go about this without implementing a change to our PvE DPS at all.

    Most people posting seem to have a similar goal, and it's not the worst thing to express it.

    No, the sky is not falling...but it wouldn't be a great situation to lose any PvE DPS at this point IMO.

    If they only nerf our PvP utility without breaking anything in PvE, I think everyone here will be pretty happy. So I guess we'll see.
    I mean it would be nice if they'd nerf shield block to not increase block value as damage, and instead buff revenge or devastate instead (requiring def stance is a must here). But again, it's speculation at this point. The blue said they are looking at ways to nerf us, not stating anything near a concrete direction on how.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  4. #44
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    Although this wouldn't be an immediate fix, they'd probably have to wait until Cataclysm, they could make Shield Slam a static ability that allows you to attack with your shield, say at a 2.0 attack speed or something, that does a certain amount of damage based off of strength and the armor on the shield, or something similar.

    That way it turns the burstiness of Shield Slam into more consistent damage without severely crippling our dps, perhaps even heightening it. That would also give more emphasis and uniqueness to the Warrior Prot tree as Sword and Shield fighters.

    Could be interesting, anyway.

  5. #45
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    If you only did 2.5k dps on festergut as a tank, you are doing something wrong.

    Its either your strat, or you yourself.


    With two tanks, the first tank will end up with more + damage buffs i believe, but either way, both get it at some point. Even without a damage buff you should be able to hit 2200-2500 fairly easily.

    On this encounter, as soon as you hit 9 stacks, and the other tank taunts off you, you should be swapping stances, weapons and going to town. 5k is a pretty easy number to hit.

    Next week I may spec a tiny bit different so that i can maximize dps while i have the +90% buff...




    Bottom line is, you should be able to get almost 2500 with NO buff... if you cant get above that with a 90% buff something is seriously wrong.

  6. #46
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    I have been on the receiving end of PvE nerfs due to PvP concerns a couple of times and I can only conclude that having the same ruleset in PvP as in PvE doesn't work.

    If warrior utility is too high in PvP so they will nerf said utility where will that leave us in PvE? Intervene/Intercept/Charge are class defining skills. As are Shield Bash and spell reflect. Increase the CD on those, remove the easily talented silence from shield bash, nerf our stuns and we will be in some trouble in PvE.

    If you compare PvP tanks in WoW to PvP tanks in Warhammer then we still are woefully underpowered. In WAR no enemy could run through me to my healer. I could punt them far away. I could force them to stay with me. I could slow them. Compared to that a warrior is nothing in PvP. Pity WAR didn't work for me.

    They will have to give abilities different effects for PvP. They will need to have a different ruleset. They always claim that they would hate it but the matter of the fact is that they already created two worlds that are not interchangeable gearwise and in playstyle.

    I remember when they changed CC behaving differently in PvP and the introduction of the DRs. I remember when they introduced the CD on Prayer of Mending due to rogues not being able to easily kill priests while they still had mana(the way it IMHO should be). I remember when they introduced the improved Glyph of Penance(removing 2s CD) just to add 2s CD to the base spell in a later patch resulting in having to have the glyph just to be as good as before. Seems Penance was too strong in PvP. They put a cap on how much block contributes to SS so we couldn't hit too hard with a shield. Engineering boots were first nerfed, then disallowed in Arena and then buffed again.

    We already have different rulesets in Arena and in PvE. They simply should follow it thru so they can balance both separately.
    I'm just waiting for the tank nerfs due to "tanks being too strong while carrying the flag" in the rated BGs.

    GC is treading on very thin ice here.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  7. #47
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    I can understand their concern with not wanting to completely separate the two. I like PvE, but I also have a lot of fun PvP'ing and doing Arena. It's fun to be able to do it on the same character, especially if you only have one, and not have to swap over to a different server, etc. to go do Arena there.

    Besides, the talent trees are essentially divided between PvP and PvE talents, with some mixing going on. If they just removed that altogether, there are now a bunch of talents that they may as well take out of the game, and then would have to either replace them with something else or lower the amount of talent points we have.

    They'd essentially have to make two separate games that use similar mechanics, but have completely different talents, achievements, objectives, etc. If they do that, I see no reason they shouldn't charge you $14.99 to play WoW, and $14.99 to play WoW-Arena. $30 if you want to do both.

    While I agree that makes balancing a pain, and stuff often gets out of whack because of it, I don't think it's as easy for Blizzard to simply separate the two, and I can understand their lack of interest in doing so.

  8. #48
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    Honestly they should just buff the dog crap out of Arms PvP, increasing HP, mobility and damage, make it more desirable than protection like it used to be pre-3.0.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Honestly they should just buff the dog crap out of Arms PvP, increasing HP, mobility and damage, make it more desirable than protection like it used to be pre-3.0.
    Well it does beg the question as to if the fact that the highest ranked Warrior is Protection at the moment if it's a result of the fact that Arms/Fury simply aren't competitive enough after all the changes to be attractive--and that skilled PvP players will gravitate towards all kinds of bizzare specs and builds if they feel it will give them even a slight advantage in arenas.

    If you look at the AJ scores for various classes, you'll see that the median and average values of the scores for Warriors as a whole is fairly low compared to many classes--and even the top-ranked Protection Warrior score pales in comparison to all of the top scores for other classes. (The top-ranked Mage, for instance, has like 12.3k vs. 9.5k for the Prot Warrior guy.)

    So, I do wonder if it's more or less a combination of a few overpowered elements (Imp Spell Reflect, most likely), lack of experience vs. Protection, and the fact that the other Warrior specs are not shining that brightly at the moment.

    Would be a shame if those reasons lead to anything with PvE implications. Fingers-crossed that's not the case.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  10. #50
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    arms pvp is pretty strong still these days (lolblenderstorm). the only thing really stopping us are snares, high burst casters, and shields (looking at you, mages and pallies). if they made juggernaut and warbringer the same, warriors would be the most op class to play arena with.

    the attraction pvprot has for me is the ranged silence, not having to sit in a frost nova/entangling roots for half a match, and not having to use clunky stance dancing and wep swap macros all the time (i use 9 different macros for arms pvp alone, only 2 for pvprot). you can do just about everything as arms that prot can do, it's just easier and less clunky to go prot.
    -Jimmy

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  11. #51
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    If they nerfed imp spell reflect and imp disarm, would most PvE warrior tanks even notice?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    If they nerfed imp spell reflect and imp disarm, would most PvE warrior tanks even notice?
    Usually not. Those talents are taken for gimmick fights and doing without them, we'd get along.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    If you look at the AJ scores for various classes, you'll see that the median and average values of the scores for Warriors as a whole is fairly low compared to many classes--and even the top-ranked Protection Warrior score pales in comparison to all of the top scores for other classes. (The top-ranked Mage, for instance, has like 12.3k vs. 9.5k for the Prot Warrior guy.)
    This is the only thing that pisses me off about nerfing us due to PvP. The mage stays the top anyway, he doesn't move up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    If they nerfed imp spell reflect and imp disarm, would most PvE warrior tanks even notice?
    I've only ever spec'd Imp Spell Reflect for Malygos and have never put a point into Improved Disarm in my 5 years of playing WoW... so I'd put my money on "no."
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    If they nerfed imp spell reflect and imp disarm, would most PvE warrior tanks even notice?
    I certainly wouldn't care. Imp Spell Reflect was useful on one single encounter, and even then I didn't take it because it just doesn't provide any huge benefit. I don't many other took the talent either.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    arms pvp is pretty strong still these days (lolblenderstorm). the only thing really stopping us are snares, high burst casters, and shields (looking at you, mages and pallies). if they made juggernaut and warbringer the same, warriors would be the most op class to play arena with.

    the attraction pvprot has for me is the ranged silence, not having to sit in a frost nova/entangling roots for half a match, and not having to use clunky stance dancing and wep swap macros all the time (i use 9 different macros for arms pvp alone, only 2 for pvprot). you can do just about everything as arms that prot can do, it's just easier and less clunky to go prot.
    Well, I have some guildmates that do pretty hardcore arenaing and one of them recently went off the deep end and quit arenaing for the season as Arms PvP due to getting chain-CC'd by a Mage for virtually the entire match multiple matches in a row.

    Then again, Prot misses having the Mortal Strike debuff and really does have quite a bit less damage than Arms. My guess is that if you made some slight tweaks to both sides of the utility stuff, you wouldn't have to coax people too hard to go back to Arms.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlhungus View Post
    I certainly wouldn't care. Imp Spell Reflect was useful on one single encounter, and even then I didn't take it because it just doesn't provide any huge benefit. I don't many other took the talent either.
    I know I saw Xav take imp disarm once, but I don't remember what boss they were working on at the time or even when that was. Though it was sometime in 2009. I don't remember if any of the bosses were disarmable even...perhaps he was pvping, I don't know. Could have been early in expac too, fooling around with different damage increases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Well, I have some guildmates that do pretty hardcore arenaing and one of them recently went off the deep end and quit arenaing for the season as Arms PvP due to getting chain-CC'd by a Mage for virtually the entire match multiple matches in a row.

    Then again, Prot misses having the Mortal Strike debuff and really does have quite a bit less damage than Arms. My guess is that if you made some slight tweaks to both sides of the utility stuff, you wouldn't have to coax people too hard to go back to Arms.
    Sensible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Well, I have some guildmates that do pretty hardcore arenaing and one of them recently went off the deep end and quit arenaing for the season as Arms PvP due to getting chain-CC'd by a Mage for virtually the entire match multiple matches in a row.
    sounds like what happened to me a few weeks back. i nerdrage quit arenas after finally getting fed up while sitting in frostnova and poly for literally an entire 2s match on ruins of lordaeron. it was the last straw for me, fed up of being snared or kited around all the time. started doing bg's as pvprot and everything that made me mad about pvping as a warrior went away. i'm not comfortable enough to arena as prot still, so i trudge though 10 games a week as arms while i wait for the next season and a fresh start running as prot (maybe stay arms if kazeyonoma will let me on his 3s).
    -Jimmy

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  20. #60
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    Stupid suggestion for "fixing" PVP number 9753768953a:

    Make the arenas so that players are only able to participate in arena/PVP gear. Generic sets available for free from arena vendors. Approved craftables and purchasable upgrades from there.

    I'm not so naive to think that would solve anything. But it would limit Creativity with the rules which supports ArP stacking Prot warriors in Arenas.

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