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Thread: I really worry about Prot Warrior DPS.

  1. #1
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    I really worry about Prot Warrior DPS.

    We were in ICC25 last night. Working on Festergut. A lot of wipes, but we were persisting, refining the tactics and getting better each try. Until we hit the enrage timer on 22%. We just didn't have enough raid-wide dps. This was good progress though, and so we decide to swap out a few players, try and push for as much DPS as we can. This means we squeeze every last drop of damage out where we can get it, including tank DPS. Our Blood DK tank is pushing 5k dps on this encounter. At my best attempt, I hit just over 2.6k. So I step out in favour of our Paladin tank. I'm an officer and it was my decision to step out, we did need to try and push it as best we could for progress, and if getting that bit more raid dps was going to help, then that was the best course of action.

    Damned if I'm not miffed that the other tanks manage to do nearly twice as much damage as me, but if we get the progress this week, we probably won't have to try min/max as much next time, and it won't really matter as if I'm tanking. But then I read this later on:

    World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming 3.3 balance adjustments

    Protection warriors have too much utility and damage for PvP. (We don't want to hurt their tanking in PvE of course.
    This does not bode well...

    I don't trust Blizzard not to hurt Prot in PVE. I fear that they're going to do something like reducing damage and upping threat. I could live with a nerf to stuns for the sake of PVP. Reduce or remove the stun from Improved Revenge. Maybe reduce the stun on Shockwave (even though with mob pathing the way it is, the stun is an absolute godsend). I could even live with Intercept being removed from Warbringer. But I can see it happening. Prot DPS is probably going to take a hit for PVP 'balance', with increased threat values instead.

    Yeah, I know no specifics have been announced yet, so maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, but damned if I'm not worried this is going to be a kick in the teeth.

  2. #2
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    Hmpf. I had hoped they would do away with threat multipliers on special attacks and let us gain threat by damage. At least that's how I understood GCs comment on the devastate buff.
    Apart from "PVP utility" I don't see how we can pose any threat apart from harrassing casters. But then again, I don't PvP on my warrior.

    I always thought the best way to deal with a prot warrior is to simply not hit him. No rage, no problem.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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  3. #3
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    I sincerely hope that whatever changes they make to prot are done in a way that ONLY impacts pvp. For example, I wouldn't mind:
    - Improved defensive stance only triggered by mobs
    - Gag order silence on heroic throw only works vs mobs
    - Nerf improved disarm

    I did 4.3k dps on our Festergut kill, as a warrior wearing my full EH set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I did 4.3k dps on our Festergut kill, as a warrior wearing my full EH set.
    Yeah, I could probably go back to the old Deep Wounds build if I wanted to push some extra DPS, but I've been running a 5/10/56 build with Imp Demo Shout and Imp disc for some time now for max survivability. With how hard Festergut hits, I don't know if I'd be ok sacrificing the survivability.

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    Out of interest what have people been doing to max out DPS when not tanking fester, I was dps'ing last night but two other warrior tanks were tanking. Switching to dps weapons and stance, or staying sword and board ... ?
    **Give me a hug and I'll defend you with my life**
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlhungus View Post
    Yeah, I could probably go back to the old Deep Wounds build if I wanted to push some extra DPS, but I've been running a 5/10/56 build with Imp Demo Shout and Imp disc for some time now for max survivability. With how hard Festergut hits, I don't know if I'd be ok sacrificing the survivability.
    Get a ret to spec vindication. No reason for you to have a gimped build or even to waste a GCD on demo shout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shortypop View Post
    Out of interest what have people been doing to max out DPS when not tanking fester, I was dps'ing last night but two other warrior tanks were tanking. Switching to dps weapons and stance, or staying sword and board ... ?
    I tanked initially then we switched around the 2nd inhale. That put me on around 6 stacks of bloat and avoided us doing a transition while the boss was hitting hardest. I just swapped in a slower dps mainhand and did my usual rotation.

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    Regardless of how you hack it, Protection Warriors are and remain the single lowest DPS output in the entire game.

    How people can complain about the "damage output" of Prot Warriors is totally beyond me. Even Smite Priests can pump out more DPS than Prot Warriors nowadays.

    Nerfing Prot Warrior DPS in PvE any further than they have already done would be an absolute disaster. It's my opinion that Protection Warriors still need DPS buffs in order to be competitive with the other tanks in PvE, which typically do at least 1k or more DPS beyond what Warriors are capable of.

    On your question, Shortypop, most likely the best thing to do on Festergut realistically for the purposes of DPS is to swap to a DPS-oriented 2.6s 1H weapon and do a 'normal' TPS rotation. For the purposes of damage, Shockwave > CB > Shield Slam > Devastate anyway, so basically you can just use a typical SS -> Dev -> Dev -> SW/CB/Dev SnB rotation and it will more or less be optimal for DPS as well. I would guess that Battle Stance would likely be slightly better than Berserker Stance due to the innate Armor Penetration, but I would need to take a look at the numbers for that later.

    I did do about 4.1k DPS on our Festergut kill, which still lower than our Paladin tank who had the buff about half the time I did over the course of the fight--and I was DPSing during Heroism. His peak DPS with the buff was over 9k on more than a few segments of time. My highest peak outside of Heroism was 5.6k, with 9.8 being my absolute peak for a single perioid during Heroism. (But only around 6-7k most of the time during Heroism.)

    So, honestly, can't say Warrior DPS is all that impressive, even in the best of cases.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-08-2010 at 04:57 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Get a ret to spec vindication. No reason for you to have a gimped build or even to waste a GCD on demo shout.
    Agree. Or get your fury warriors to spec imp demo. Those points are far more expendable for them than for a prot warrior. If neither of them will respec, slap them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karlhungus View Post
    So I step out in favour of our Paladin tank. I'm an officer and it was my decision to step out, we did need to try and push it as best we could for progress, and if getting that bit more raid dps was going to help, then that was the best course of action.
    Who was putting up sunders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    How people can complain about the "damage output" of Prot Warriors is totally beyond me. Even Smite Priests can pump out more DPS than Prot Warriors nowadays.
    Because the context is PVP.

    - In pvp, players have to sacrifice some of their regular dps talents and gear for survival. Classes with built in survivability, less so.
    - In pvp, burst damage is much more significant than sustained. Shield slam, Conc Blow, Shockwave as a combo is a nice burst with free dispell and stun thrown in.
    - Prot warriors are unkiteable, get stronger if you focus fire them and really annoying to casters if ignored. That's a prickly problem in an arena context.

    This is why I said I really hope that whatever changes they cook up are directed specifically at PVP and do NOT touch PVE. I will be fucking livid if they nerf PVE performance or flexibility because of what's going on in PVP. PVE warrior balance feels just about good enough to me.

  10. #10
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    Or even get a Fury warrior. They typically have a couple of points to blow at that level of the talent tree. Perhaps they can even skill the improved shouts if you took it for that.

    EDIT:
    If they are worried about burst damage then they can take away the damage malus on def stance and reduce devastate and shield slam damage if they up the damage of heroic strike/white damage. I guess nobody is scared of our white damage/HS.
    Shockwave is fine as it is.

    I found out the hard way that you need some resilience when facing casters. I had a runin with a warlock in LG. He just applied a couple of DOTs on me and that ate a huge chunk of my life.
    Last edited by Mačl; 01-08-2010 at 04:58 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abm View Post
    Who was putting up sunders?
    Fury Warriors can maintain Sunder with a pretty minimal loss of DPS.
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  12. #12
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    Hmm i ran a 8/10/53 build and i did 4.3 or was it 4.6 on that boss. 2.6 seems extremely low. How many stacks did you take and what did you do at the tank switch?

    That high dmg is ofcourse due to the stacks. On a general basis i do agree that prot dps inn a PVE enviroment is awfull compared to the other.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Because the context is PVP.

    - In pvp, players have to sacrifice some of their regular dps talents and gear for survival. Classes with built in survivability, less so.
    - In pvp, burst damage is much more significant than sustained. Shield slam, Conc Blow, Shockwave as a combo is a nice burst with free dispell and stun thrown in.
    - Prot warriors are unkiteable, get stronger if you focus fire them and really annoying to casters if ignored. That's a prickly problem in an arena context.

    This is why I said I really hope that whatever changes they cook up are directed specifically at PVP and do NOT touch PVE. I will be fucking livid if they nerf PVE performance or flexibility because of what's going on in PVP. PVE warrior balance feels just about good enough to me.
    Yes, I understand that it's PvP although, honestly, I'm still not sure I buy the argument considering the DPS Output of, say, an Arms Warrior combiend with the MS debuff deals considerably more damage than anything a Prot Warrior could hope to reach--not to mention the insanity that are Rogues at the moment.

    The issue here is that there is no easy way to lower our DPS in the context of PvP without going a direction they have with any other class. Your suggestions aren't bad ones, but, for instance, modifying Enrage's mechanics wouldn't change all that much in the context of arenas.

    Having our spec nerfed in any way (and, of course, getting rid of any hope of them boosting our damage) because a few DPS PvP-oriented Warriors are getting high rankings in arenas wearing nearly full DPS gear, Deathbringer's Will, etc. + a Shield is just a bit appalling to me. :P

    (Example here: The World of Warcraft Armory think he's the highest ranked one currently...)
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  14. #14
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    You can take my shockwave away and give me a propper aoe tanking ability. YEs please!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    EDIT:
    If they are worried about burst damage then they can take away the damage malus on def stance and reduce devastate and shield slam damage if they up the damage of heroic strike/white damage. I guess nobody is scared of our white damage/HS.
    Shockwave is fine as it is.

    God no, no nerf to devastate or SS. And for god sakes no more importance on HS. It was already bad design that they made it a rage dump and yet we are balanced as having to spam it constantly, no way would it sit well if they nerfed our devastate/SS and put it into heroic strikes/melee hits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozer View Post
    You can take my shockwave away and give me a propper aoe tanking ability. YEs please!!

    Bloodbath please?

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    I wouldn't mind this if they were to play it safely, adjust maybe one talent and see how it goes from there. Lets say for example, remove the increased damage taken element of Improved Disarm, which would reduce the burst of a Prot PVP player slightly. But considering the overnerf of DKs, I really don't trust Blizzard not to seriously nerf Prot in all aspects of the game.

    Having Shield Slam scaling from AP instead of BV would be something I think we'd all be happy about, having SS do more damage on average, and remove the burst effect of Shield Block.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozer View Post
    You can take my shockwave away and give me a propper aoe tanking ability. YEs please!!
    Only over your dead body. Shockwave is brilliant!

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlhungus View Post
    Having Shield Slam scaling from AP instead of BV would be something I think we'd all be happy about, having SS do more damage on average, and remove the burst effect of Shield Block.
    That would not do a lot to help this case. Most Warriors using Protection in arena that I can see use a mix of DPS gear and trinkets, not tanking gear. Thus, AP scaling on Shield Slam would probably increase their DPS instead of lowering it.
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  20. #20
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    All my friends and brother said I was crazy when I kept saying that the reason prot warrior's are on the bottom of the totem poll was because of pvp, and last night after that was finally posted up they all said they couldn't believe I was right. Ever since the start of wotlk the warr dps was really lack luster. In full naxx gear when tanking a boss I would barely be able to touch 2k if I was lucky while my heroic geared pally friend was able to hit 2.5k pretty easily from just their simple 69696 rotation or whatever it is. In a heroic now with a macro to ss/sb and revenge/hs spamming these buttons constantly with chain aoe pulls I can manage 2k pretty consistently, but when above pally friend and another friend on their bear can go through and pull almost 3k and a larger chunk of overall damage. I honestly believe pvp is the reason that it took us so long to see the rage gain from dodge and parry rather than just block after it was put in on test realms than taken away within a week because something like a rogue beating on us gave us that much more rage to beat back at them with. I guess what I don't understand the most is that if we pull such low numbers in PVE, how is it made out to be that we are pulling something like 3x this in pvp that we are such a large threat? What about the other tanking classes? Why is nothing being said/done about them? I imagine the response we will see next week when they eventually talk about this is going to be something along the lines of, well top guilds still use warriors, so we thought they were ok and still think they are and see no need to make changes. Note - sorry for the wall-o-text, for some reason it isn't letting me separate when I post.

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