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Thread: Sustainable Warrior AoE

  1. #41
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    It just takes a little more work, that's all.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenron View Post
    It just takes a little more work, that's all.
    Back to the crux of my argument: why should it be?

    What do we have over other classes that requires that "extra work" as a balancing measure? Threat? The threat gap between warriors and other tanking classes has been slowly eroded to where we're all quite close. And it's irrelevant anyway as long as your tank is doing 30% more threat than your best DPS. You don't have to outrun the bear; just the other guy.

    Survival? No. Other tanking classes have just as many survival options, if not more/better (looking at you, Mr I-rez-myself-free-every-two-minutes-adin)

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    Back to the crux of my argument: why should it be?

    What do we have over other classes that requires that "extra work" as a balancing measure? Threat? The threat gap between warriors and other tanking classes has been slowly eroded to where we're all quite close. And it's irrelevant anyway as long as your tank is doing 30% more threat than your best DPS. You don't have to outrun the bear; just the other guy.

    Survival? No. Other tanking classes have just as many survival options, if not more/better (looking at you, Mr I-rez-myself-free-every-two-minutes-adin)
    That's true. But I didn't mean this to be, "I hate working at this, make it easy QQ." My question is, would a lower CD or a more sustainable AoE ability be viable?
    "Good morning, apparently the assassins have failed."

  4. #44
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    I really like that idea of having Improved Thunderclap make it so that Thunderclaps on mobs afflicted with the Thunderclap Debuff take double damage from TC. Might help with warrior damage output too, without being OP in arenas. Of course, we need more help on single target threat than multi-target, but it'd be a start.

  5. #45
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    Maybe they should start by making TC crit like normal hits instead of spells? That would be a good start and a sign they care about us not being totally outdated in some areas.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Of course, we need more help on single target threat than multi-target, but it'd be a start.
    Really? I'd see it being the other way around.

    As mentioned elsewhere, we have 5 methods of aoe threat.

    1) TC
    2) Shockwave
    3) Challenging shout
    4) Deep Wounds
    5) Damage Shield

    The first three are all on substantial cooldowns, and all the first two are on the GCD AND have small area ranges compared to other tank classes. The last two kinda rely on having aggro in the FIRST place; and only supply a small trickle of threat. So much of warrior AoE is timing and detemining acceptable risk: do I use shockwave now? Will I need it in the next 20 seconds? This happens to the other tanking classes too, but not nearly as bad.

    Single-target I don't think I've ever had a problem against another class with gear/skill being equal (and sometimes even with them having much better gear), but there are certain tanking classes I struggle against with aoe threat no matter what I do.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    Really? I'd see it being the other way around.

    As mentioned elsewhere, we have 5 methods of aoe threat.

    1) TC
    2) Shockwave
    3) Challenging shout
    4) Deep Wounds
    5) Damage Shield

    The first three are all on substantial cooldowns, and all the first two are on the GCD AND have small area ranges compared to other tank classes. The last two kinda rely on having aggro in the FIRST place; and only supply a small trickle of threat. So much of warrior AoE is timing and detemining acceptable risk: do I use shockwave now? Will I need it in the next 20 seconds? This happens to the other tanking classes too, but not nearly as bad.

    Single-target I don't think I've ever had a problem against another class with gear/skill being equal (and sometimes even with them having much better gear), but there are certain tanking classes I struggle against with aoe threat no matter what I do.

    Sorry, I said threat, but I was meaning to say damage. We need help on single target damage more than multi target damage.

  8. #48
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    Warriors can be very good at aoe threat, but the truth is with large groups of mobs a pally will pull threat on the majority of them. I say don't worry about it. Just focus on the most dangerous mob and solo tank it. If you are tanking alone, like in a heroic try the following to be an aoe god:
    1. Glyph for cleave and sunder armor
    2. Equip as much damage gear as you can and still maintain the def cap.
    3. Get a mash macro that tab targets and uses high threat moves (shield slam etc..)
    4. Dont use heroic strike for adds.

    Imo warriors can hold threat on multiple mobs as well as any class. It takes more creativity with macros, glyphs, abilties than the other classes. As it stands right now pallys have it easy and will usually pull of warrior tanks with ease. I would think doubling the threat TC causes might balance this out but in the meantime warrior tanks are fine at aoe.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    Back to the crux of my argument: why should it be?
    Because warriors are the class with more options (along with mobility it's really our only strength as a class) and the people who play them by and large like it that way. So having a 1 button-to-help-win AOE solution does not fit the warrior "kit".

    Honestly, just boosting prot DPS to where it should be relative to other tank classes would go a long way towards making AOE work better, as our abilities would hit harder and hold better. Someone suggested just making TC hit harder (but not more often) and I'd be ok with that.

  10. #50
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    I think it would be nice to remove one, maybe two shared Global Cd's. Things like DemShout (specifically), and TC being independent casts would be nice. AoE tanking takes alot of attention. i.e. Waiting on a shield slam to wrangle in a mob that's dropping threat being missed because you just threw a DemShout. I think we have a ton of utility but I think that would expand the ability to keep our AoE rotations rolling.

    Les

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesault View Post
    I think it would be nice to remove one, maybe two shared Global Cd's. Things like DemShout (specifically), and TC being independent casts would be nice. AoE tanking takes alot of attention. i.e. Waiting on a shield slam to wrangle in a mob that's dropping threat being missed because you just threw a DemShout. I think we have a ton of utility but I think that would expand the ability to keep our AoE rotations rolling.

    Les
    Taking TC off the GCD trigger would also help to boost our single target tps, without really making a huge PVP breakage issue. You could realisitically keep it on CD while tanking a boss to add in some serious threat where right now being on the GCD it's only advisable to keep it up as a debuff.
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  12. #52
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    warriors have good aoe threat, not as good as a paladins but good enough. If you do not want to do the hard gritty work then dont play a warrior. I would still take TC and shockwave over consecrate any day of the week. Demo shout works just as good for snap aggro as TC. Sure ppl will pull off you eventually but we are given tons of buttons to mash in that case.

    Only things i would change are things like challenging shout- I would love this to have a shorter cd and to be more of a taunt than just all enemies attack you for x amount of seconds. Retalliation would be so much better in prot, I dont see the use for it in arms. And ofcourse TC could do more damage but it would probably suffer a longer cd like shockwave.

    Warrior tanking is still the most fun of any class i have tanked on.

  13. #53
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    Warrior AoE threat is good and it depends on how active the warrior is obtaining threat on the mobs. If the warrior has at least one or two mobs to provide rage then rage isn't the issue its how he uses his abilities. The AoE threat is there but to maintain it is a the chore for a warrior and easier for other classes. TC off the global cooldown would be nice but I don't see the need for it because it still on CD. Demo maybe but even still if the mobs are stunable then we can use TC early and stun them and reapply by then the mobs are nearly dead. For a boss fight the tps isn't really needed if the warrior is actively making threat. Unless the fight has a debuff or buff to it I have yet to have a threat issue while tanking a boss.
    Last edited by thecrazyman; 01-19-2010 at 11:32 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by luv2tank View Post
    Demo shout works just as good for snap aggro as TC.
    Wait, what? Demo shout causes negligible threat. If it did as much for snap aggro as TC, people would be spamming it.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Wait, what? Demo shout causes negligible threat. If it did as much for snap aggro as TC, people would be spamming it.
    I think the point he's trying to make is that if there is NO source of incoming threat from other players (heals, damage, or just standing in front of a mob), demo shout will pick the mob up and hold it (once again assuming no other form of threat is generated by anyone else). For that matter walking up to a mob is snap aggro. But I wouldn't expect it to last.

    I've often used demo shout between TC spam on gauntlet type events, because it ensures I'm getting SOME aggro on all mobs in range no matter what else I'm doing. But it's certainly not reliable by itself.

  16. #56
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    Demo will move mobs to you provided nothing is going on like dps/heals as mentioned. I do this frequently when a mob in a pack is going to be out of range for my first thunderclap. As in Demo -> Wait -> TC. Will it "hold" mobs? Absolutely not.

    Warriors do fine on AOE, I have yet to have an issue with AOE tanking if the other tank(s) are also Warriors. The only time it's an issue is when there are 2 Paladins or a DK & Paladin also tanking with me - honestly their AOE threat wins and there isn't much you are going to do about it besides insisting on a big lead time which would be dumb.

    Does it matter though? No. If I need to AOE tank I can, and more importantly the mobs are being tanked. In these situations I typically will just play catch and round stuff up and keep it in the camp or use my tools to bring stubborn casters in. I enjoy playing mob cop in big AOE packs so it doesn't bother me and it helps the raid by having fewer deaths.
    Last edited by kolben; 01-19-2010 at 09:18 PM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bung View Post
    Warriors can be very good at aoe threat, but the truth is with large groups of mobs a pally will pull threat on the majority of them. I say don't worry about it. Just focus on the most dangerous mob and solo tank it.
    It is what I do in raiding with pallys and dks. Honestly I can AOE tank with the best of them but it requires a lot of work, proper gearing, etc, to do it. But it don't always work and most times the pally/dk grabs more. So what. I'm far from being the best warrior tank and find we have all the abilities to get the job done.

    If I ever doubt myself I just remember this: I used to raid partially as fury and I can EASILY pull of ANY tank in the game if I don't carefully watch what I do. It takes zero effort from a DPS to pull threat in an AOE situation; it takes a LOT of effort to not pull threat.
    Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.

  18. #58
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    For some reason I can't post this on the Warrior forums, if someone could in my stead I'd really appreciate it.

    Hey there,

    So many Protection Warriors, myself included, are concerned about our ability to put out high levels of TPS in AoE tanking. I tank in a pretty high level guild (8/12 ICC 25 at the time of this posting) and I play with some of the best players this game has to offer. I tank along side a Protection Paladin, Feral Druid, and occasionally a Death Knight. All of these players are extremely capable and knowledgeable of their classes. These players smoke me in TPS in AoE situations and our DPS are able to pretty much go BTTW. This is a great thing and I'm happy my guild has such competent tanks.

    My reason for posting is rooted in a question that has come to mind lately: Why do Paladins, DKs, and Feral Druids, pump out more AoE threat than Protection Warriors? (Not to mention much higher DPS) I don't mean this to be a tank envy post. I am honestly curious if there is a reason that I am missing. If we had a similar advantage in survivability or single target threat it would make sense, but from my research and experience I don't believe that we have a severe enough advantage in any area of tanking to merit or justify such a stark disparity.

    I consider myself a capable tank. I've been tanking as a Prot Warrior for about 3 years now and have been trolling Tankspot for the same length of time. I have the experience, know the theory, and have built a reputation on my server for my ability to tank well. It is because of this (and vocal concern from other highly capable Protection Warriors) that I believe that this is a real issue that is not being addressed or has fallen off Blizzards radar.

    What concerns me most about the current state of Warrior AoE threat is this: In order to compete with Paladins, Feral Druids, or Deathknights, we have to sacrifice a lot just to have a chance at keeping up. (I'm talking about good Prot Paladins and DKs who will more than likely smoke you in AoE aggro if they actually know what they are doing.)

    Yes, we can glyph Shockwave, Vigilance, and Cleave, yes we can respec into cleaving and a few other more DPS oriented talents, and yes we can re-gem and re-enchant for Strength, expertise, and hit, in order to make ourselves more capable AoE tanks. Even after doing all that, we'd still probably be only competitive for AoE threat. But if you do all this you better pray you aren't asked to tank anything that hits very hard.

    This isn't 100% backed up with data, but imagine if you will tanks are evaluated on two scales, survivability and threat from 1-10. Lets imagine the following is true:

    Warrior
    Survival: 8
    AoE Threat: 5

    Paladin, DK, Bear
    Surivival: 8
    AoE Threat: 8

    Now, warriors can do as mentioned above and modify their set up to achieve...

    Warrior
    Survival: 5
    AoE Threat: 8

    But in this case we're still losing, and I don't see why. If it were...

    Warrior
    Survival: 10
    AoE Threat: 5

    It would make sense. But I simply don't know what the reason for this disparity is.

    Basically what I'm getting at is this: It seems like Paladins and DKs can focus on stacking survivability stats, and still do high levels of AoE threat without having to really stack for it, while warriors have to make a choice: Do good threat, or be able to take hits. So while were being forced to chose A or B, Paladins, Feral Druids, and DKs get to have both A and B.

    And in before "warriors are the most represented tank class for top guilds" lets keep in mind that player representation doesn't totally indicate performance. Many Warriors are extremely nostalgic and continue to tank as a Warrior simply because they are stubborn, not because it's totally viable.

    I don't mean this to be a tank envy post, but it is alarming that this disparity and I am hoping that Blizzard will let us know if this is an issue that is on their radar. (And lets not even get started on Prot Warrior DPS while tanking :P)
    Last edited by Krashtork; 01-20-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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  19. #59
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    I think far too many people complain, no offense meant of course, but I personally absolutely LOVE my warrior and have ever since my first one way back when in the EU beta.

    sure some things could be easiers, but where's the fun in being easy? I play my warrior because of all the tank classes in game you actually have to pay attention, and that is how it's always been. I don't want to run around pressing swipe (in bears case) all the time.
    I want to keep my target switching, my movement, my taunts. They are there for a reason!

    Sure I might lose the odd mob to eager aoe, or a boss/mob fears someone into the next pack and I can't pick them up straight away (I have to go round hitting devastate/taunt and mocking blow one on each mob), but this is why you made the warrior, that issue has ALWAYS been there. As far back as I remember tanking I've had to change targets. Except unlike back then we now have loads of utility added that makes it easier to pick up random mobs/packs.

    So please, stop trying to make my lovely class better, it's perfect the way it is!
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnia View Post
    sure some things could be easiers, but where's the fun in being easy? I play my warrior because of all the tank classes in game you actually have to pay attention, and that is how it's always been.
    Couldn't of said it better my self warriors require the person playing it to pay attentation. If you want an easier job go try healing because right now its wack-o-mole HP bars. To the point where in Heriocs most healers fall asleep with good tanks that take next to no dmg. One thing about warriors is we keep our healers on the toes while in 5 mans what with 2 charges and stunning and running to the next group.

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