DK tanking advice after a FoS fail...

[Evilcabell]

I'm a DK frost tank. I became bored with dps and my guild was desperate for a tank so I started to practice with guildies and got to the point that I was confident enough to tank with pugs and eventually raids. (I was a warrior tank back in pre-BC but took a two year break from wow). I love the new LFG system because there is zero wait and I get a lot of practice as a tank. I almost always mark mobs (the dps sometimes takes the hint). I get the occasional flack for being a deathtank and I've had plenty of LFG pug dps drop the group after saying "DK tank . fail" or something along those lines. I'm a miner/JC for all the extra stamina and I have really made tanking my main spec. I study unfamiliar fights using tank spot and wowwiki and can tank all of the dungeons and have just started tanking toc10 (babysteps). I am sometimes complimented after the last boss for my tanking, advice, and/or leadership skills. I almost always compliment the healers because I know that DK tanks can be hard to heal compared to other tanking classes.
I guess all that above is me trying to say that I try to not waste peoples time by being the stereotypical lousy dk tank that everyone is always griping about and I like to think that I'm not a complete noob (back in vanilla wow, the only achievement was going 10 mins without being called a noob).
That said I have a noobish question.
I was running FOS. The second after I'm teleported in, the 5230gs rogue (I'm about 5030 but still was impressed) starts attacking. I'm doing all i can to grab all the aggro off rogue. No one says anything and my one request to slow down is ignored---I literally didn't have time to type. Miraculously we make it to the boss. While I'm trying to emphasize that all the dps should be focused on the healing orb, the rogue charges in and is promptly 3hitted (I'll admit that I didn't try particularly hard to grab the aggro until the rogue was down). The rogue then told me "I just want you to know that you're a terrible tank. You backpedal. Crushing blows--pew---pew." This was said while i was trying to kite the boss away from the orb while also ice chaining the orb whenever possible. Unfortunately, the dps didn't kill the orb and the boss was healed. Seeing this and reading the rogue's post I became very upset, used an obscenity, called the rogue scum. And left the group in mid-fight. I know, not my finest moment and I regret it.
I'm posting in the hope that someone will decipher what the rogue said. Clearly their crappy personality was shining through so I know that I should not be upset by what some random person says but I was still upset by the experience. I have mostly t9 armor and am at about 562 def. I regularly cycle my unbreakable armor and icebound fortitude (and magic shield when appropriate). I didn't think crushing blows would be such a big deal. What did this person mean by backpedalling?

Also, since 3.3, the mobs in the new instances have the uncanny ability to run over such that I have to struggle a little to keep them in front of me. Has anyone else noticed this?

Any feedback or advice would be very much appreciated. (I'm sorry for the wall of text. I'm a little verbose.) Thanks guys!

[Kerafyrm]

A few things:

The NPC pathing was bugged at 3.3 launch, they admitted it, made it better. It caused things to run behind you constantly. That said I feel its gotten worse again but thats probably just me being lazy.

With regards to what the rogue said, hes partially right but his reasoning is wrong. In TBC and vanilla tanks had to worry about crushing blows, which NPCs 3 levels and higher than you could do to you which was a 50% critical. In WOTLK, its +4 levels, so once 80, you never have to worry about it. Thats where he was wrong.

Where he was right is that if something is hitting you in the back, you cannot avoid its attacks unless it misses. Thus having your back turned to an NPC can make you take a lot of damage quickly as they connect constantly. Hence the "pew pew" of you getting 3 shot. Also, your back turned means you arent meleeing the mob, reducing your threat.

In an AOE pack, it is inevitable something will get behind you. Backpedalling slightly will slowly move things in front of you, where you take less damage and do more threat due to being able to being able to use your offensive abilities. Backing into a wall or corner has similar effects.

[Proletaria]

Mob pathing is bunk. Blizzard has said they are working on a fix (and at some point they even suggested they had hot-fixed it, but nothing changed). In the mean-time you just have to be very careful in your positioning. As mentioned above a very slow back-peddal usually lines up a pack in front of you, but some mobs are extra twitchy.

[Fledern]

From what i understand, it was the rogue who got 3-shot.

Sounds like the rogue had the gear but not the knowledge. Forget it & continue. Calling you out for backpedalling? what are you supposed to do? turn your back so you can get pewpew'd too?

PS: That's one good lesson. Delete your gearscore addon. Right now. Doesnt mean anything

[!3M]

What everyone said about mob pathing. I bet most already know this but I find that if I tap back a few times, the mobs will behave and stay in front of you.

As for not killing the orbs, it's mostly the fault of the DPS if that wasn't done.

[Maèl]

Feint and Vanish have been a lost art for some time.

Since I know nothing about DKs but for the fact that none of them have learned when to use AotD I can offer no specific advice.

But one advice I can offer is to keep trying. The new PUG tool is brilliant for tanks because you can get all the practice you'd ever want. Instantaneously. Since you were a tank pre BC you know that self confidence is the most important thing. Build that up by tanking as much as you can.
Don't forget to pick up nice and shiny DPS stuff on the way. That's what I wear when I run into the uber DPS guys without Vanish.

[CatabriOnEarthen]

I'm a DK frost tank. ...

That said I have a noobish question.
I was running FOS. The second after I'm teleported in, the 5230gs rogue (I'm about 5030 but still was impressed) starts attacking. ... (I'll admit that I didn't try particularly hard to grab the aggro until the rogue was down). The rogue then told me "I just want you to know that you're a terrible tank. You backpedal. Crushing blows--pew---pew." ... And left the group in mid-fight. I know, not my finest moment and I regret it.

I'm posting in the hope that someone will decipher what the rogue said. Clearly their crappy personality was shining through so I know that I should not be upset by what some random person says but I was still upset by the experience. I have mostly t9 armor and am at about 562 def. I regularly cycle my unbreakable armor and icebound fortitude (and magic shield when appropriate). I didn't think crushing blows would be such a big deal. What did this person mean by backpedalling?

Also, since 3.3, the mobs in the new instances have the uncanny ability to run over such that I have to struggle a little to keep them in front of me. Has anyone else noticed this?

Ok, first things first.....this was a DPS fails FoS, NOT a tank fail. If the dps is obnoxious enough to do the pull for you, YOU be obnoxious enough to let them die. So, please don't feel like this was an issue that you need to correct with your tanking style. You are geared more than enough for FoS, and the rogue was being a p***k. I understand being upset, but mostly, I just get pissed. If the DPS want to tank it...let them. Also, let them die. If they wanted to be the mob-pullers they should have rolled tanks. Then they'd get into their daily Frost random faster.

If you got hit from behind (and seriously crushing blow?.......uh, no they don't exist) it's because of the positioning bug that currently exists and you don't have as much in the way of mitigating it as you can't dodge or parry a hit from behind. Mobs seem to think they are rogues, and position themselves behind you. This is ESPECIALLY apparent in the new ICC 4-6 mob pulls. Those pulls are hard enough with the distance those mobs (some of the pulls) stand from each other, with out adding some hotsnot dps who thinks he knows better than the tank, and why don't I just pull the whole schmear for him.

I "backpeddle" all the time...it's called positioning. I don't want those buggers behind me. I'm not crit immune if they are behind me. The positioning bug makes it harder. The DPS aren't affected by the bug, so what the hell do they care, all they see is you backing up.

I've left group in the middle of a boss fight. For basically the same reason. Some dipstick DPS doesn't want to do HIS job correctly (aka, NOT take aggro from the tank) so he blames the tank or the healer. Honestly, most aggro issues I'm running into aren't ME...my TPS is fine. The DPS has, however, for whatever reason, decided that they know our jobs better than we do, and only give a rat's arse about what number displays in their recount box. Being on the top of the list in Omen and Recount seems to be the game they are playing.

Make a macro. I did. Hit it when you port in. I can tank all of these instances. With no problems at all. Unless someone wants to be Dick. See Dick Die. You get one, yes ONE, taunt. And a warning. After that, you pull it, you tank it.

I'm considering making another for inconsiderate DK DPS who think that AoD is their personal fun button. If the boss is running silly, I can't position him where I want him. Again, 1 warning. If you AoD again, you will die. Or I'll port out. I can get a new group in seconds.

All that ranting aside...I've had some awesome groups. I've never been one for chain pulling...it was outside my comfortzone....then again, I'm a pally tank, mana can be an issue. If the next set of mobs is w/in running time of my DP.......I'm on it, now. I keep an eye on people's mana. I keep an eye on my own. It takes me 4 seconds to drink to full mana, and if I have to, I do....and I'm off again. I ran UP earlier today in less than 12 minutes. That may be long for some, but it means that I'm getting more comfortable. And that is good for everyone. We had an OOPSIE today in that UP at the last pack before Ymiron's room, w/ the pat coming down, I pulled. Fear happened, and the healer got feared into the abom. He died. I switched seals, popped a pot and LoH when I needed to, and then rezzed the healer. This group wasn't badly geared..mostly a mix of T9 and other epics. It was just an oops moment. First time in a PUG that someone said to me, "Nice recovery." Next time, I'll pull the abom as well, then he'll be mine before the fear, and it won't be a problem.

Ok, I should be done now....if you've read this far, you deserve a medal.

[Xianth]

the rogue talks shit, you don't get crushing blows from anything unless it's 4 levels above you.

[Eresseae]

The fault was with the players not with you. At this point you can't beat yourself for something that you had no control over.

I consider myself an above average warrior tank on my server and can run all content very well. Thing is that NOONE should ever pull unless asked unless its the tank. Cause quite simply noone but you knows what the CDs are on your abilities or how you manage your resource whether its runic power, rage or mana.

I've had a situation identical to yours where a hunter from another server decided he wanted to pull for me. I asked him to stop and heard the usual things. "This isnt the first time I've dont this" or "What's the problem you arent taking any damage". And after I explained to him that when everything goes pear shaped from the healer getting agro from healing your stupid butt are you gonna save him? Are you gonna take responsibility when the healer faceplants and we all wipe? I thought not. Its a simple matter of they need to do their roll and you need to do yours. When someone is obnoxious enough to tell you how to tank, heal or dps without even getting to the 1st boss then you need to let them crash the bus and kill all the passengers that they decided they were qualified to drive around but werent.

I simply left the group. That simple. Tanks and healers are scarce commodoties. They play an underappreciated and underwhelming (sometimes) roll sometimes. It can be enjoyable but YOU can easily take your business elsewhere where its more appreciated than some pug that doesnt listen to you as you play the role they didnt want to.

Keep it up. You did everything fine.

[Synapse]

Two things:
1) Get rid of gearscore. It's not going to help you.
2) The rogue is an ass.


You are the tank. Impose yourself. Differently from those dumb dpsers, you don't have to wait 9 to 15 minutes to get a pug. You wait maybe 3 seconds.Within the limits of your own arrogance, you only swallow what you want to.

[Eldrad]

Personally when PUG tanking the DPS gets a warning if they start getting excited and pulling before I'm ready (usually waiting for runes to be ready).

Then I whisper the healer and just state next time the dps pulls that you will not be tanking the mobs and that if they dont feel like repair costs not to heal them. Usually works a treat, that or they rage quit. But meh they're dps and theres plenty of them and if I'm forced to use such tactics - many better ones.

[Darthwader]

rogue that dies is clearly FAIL.

rogue has vanish and tricks and evasion and whatever, how can a rogue die???

[swelt]

I'm posting in the hope that someone will decipher what the rogue said.

As someone that played a rogue from vanilla, I am adept at deciphering the lingo!

"I just want you to know that you're a terrible tank. You backpedal. Crushing blows--pew---pew."

Once upon a time, this rogue heard that the tank died because he turned his back to the boss and got hit by crushing blows. He saw you tanking with your back to something and thinks that you are a terrible tank as a result.

He is not correct. The mechanic he is specifically referring to (as already mentioned in this thread) has not worked this way since the WOTLK pre-patch. It's good to face your opponents as you can't dodge/parry attacks from behind, but it's no longer a particular death risk since crushing blows got changed to be +4 levels higher (and thus irrelevant in regular content).

When the rogue was rushing in to attack, did you see a swiss army knife icon appear about your head and his? It could be that he was trying to be helpful, using Tricks of the Trade to transfer threat to you. If not, he was just being a moron.

[Taoden]

The rogue said "backpedal" not "turn your back and run forward" unless the rogue failed horribly at English (which is obviously quite possible) then he was wrong on both parts of his statement.

[Monteverdi]

Bad PUG is bad. Sounds like you were doing everything right.

Though if you want some more reading on DK tanking, outside of the fantastic resources already here, check out my blog, as I'm trying to get readers (and feedback). I just recently posted v1 of my own DK tanking guide

[Baervar]

When the rogue was rushing in to attack, did you see a swiss army knife icon appear about your head and his? It could be that he was trying to be helpful, using Tricks of the Trade to transfer threat to you. If not, he was just being a moron.

This. And after a fair share of calm warning you vote to kick the moron and either stay if it goes through or leave if it doesn't.
No point in letting morons get to you really.

[Chamenas]

Do yourself a favor and put the rogue on ignore. His assertions were incorrect. As has been said, if you were indeed back peddling, that's what you're supposed to do when positioning mobs. Crushing Blows can only come from mobs 4 levels higher than you, there is not a single mob in FoS that is level 84, and all raid Bosses are only 83. You did NOTHING wrong as a tank. That story belongs in my thread for all of its tank-hate fail.

[eazo]

Theres not much to it. The rogue was wrong, and you weren't doing anything wrong. Also, i commend you for letting the rogue die. hahah When i first started tanking and trying to get better at the mechanics and rotation of tanking, i got yelled at a lot. You just kind of have to move on really. Most DPS'ers are lazy asses

[Eisen]

By backpeddling, I just want to confirm you mean walking backwards to draw the mobs into a closer knit pack in front of you? If that's the case you're doing nothing wrong. Even after the hotfixes pathing is still a little glitchy and as long as you aren't turning your back to the mob you're fine.

The rogue was an idiot. He pulled before the tank, he died. Such as he deserves.

[wonkey]

I have 3 tanks, Paladin, DK and warrior. All capable of tanking any heroic. there are plenty of bad DPs out there that are impatient or think they know it all. I have played the game since before release, i dont claim to know everything but i am confident in my own ability.

I have now decided to create a Macro that i shout out at the start of every Pug. It basicaly states "Attack the skull first please". " If you pull before me you tank it".

The fact that there are fewer tanks than anythigng else tends to make a lot of DPS accept this. If any moan i give them the option of rejoining the LFG queue and waiting their turn again.