DK Tanking Questions - Gear Upgrades and Blood Spec

[clangunn]

Hey all, I had a question for all the DK tanking veterans regarding gear improvement progression and the fine tuning of a Blood tanking spec.

Just a bit of background, historically my main has actually been a priest - a sad, sad admission. I raided all of BC as shadow and WotLK (until I left) as holy. Generally I tend to be a Min/Max player, but luckily these tendencies have been counterbalanced by the fact that I play with real life friends and long time guild mates that have tended to be a bit more casual. So, when I was raiding DPS I made sure that even as an spriest I was in the top 5 dps and when I was holy I would get frustrated if I did not top out effective/total healing. I got extremely bored with the limited (and bland) raiding in WotLK and took a nine month sabbatical. Upon returning 2 weeks ago I decided to turn the DK into my main and have since geared him to the best of my ability through badges.

So, first question: is a DK tank for me? I know that right now Pally tanks are *the* tank. However, leveling any toon from scratch is out of the question. That being said, I do happen to have another 70 prot warrior alt that I leveled through Vanilla/BC from 20 as Prot. Realistically, would it be less frustrating for someone that leans towards Min/Max tendencies to just rush those last 10 levels and farm badge gear?

Second question: given a chance to look at my armory where would you suggest I make improvements? As of right now I am not having any real difficulties, but come next week I will be starting up a small dedicated 10man raid team that eventually aims to go for hardmodes/achievements.

Expertise & Hit ratings - how do you all reach the soft caps in the tier9 10man gear? Right now I am sitting at just under 35k unbuffed and I see DKs running around at 40k gemming purely with +30stam. Am I missing something? I have attempted to gem for as much Stamina as possible while working towards my soft caps. Even so I am finding it difficult. Hit I have however, maintaining 8% while increasing Expertise is tough. I feel like I at the mercy of Ony's loot table - constantly waiting for Reclaimed Thunderstrike. Or should I just accept the hit loss and go for the Faceplate of the Honorbound?

I am actually frighteningly tempted to just go DW Frost with 2.60 maces to leverage dwarves' +5 expertise rating to mace racial. That in, addition to the +exp food I always carry, gets me to 25 rating.

Finally, what fine tuning recommendations would you make regarding my spec? I got jokingly chastised for having not specc'ed into Will of the Necropolis, but according to Satorri's guide the math really isn't there to make this a "must have" talent.

Thanks

[vine]

The hit and expertise caps will come naturally with the right gear, get AtlasLoot and build yourself a wishlist so you have clear goals. Getting yourself a weapon with hit or expertise should be your priority.

Whether you take WotN or not is purely a personal choice of how much you value survival. You've put the extra points into Spell Deflection, which has been shown time and again to be a poor talent.
On progression fights and hard modes it's a great crutch to have, but if your healers are never challenged keeping you alive then by all means skip it.

[Seteh]

Pallies are not "the" tank. In fact if any class was "the" tank it would be warriors as MT and Dk's as OT. Every class has it's pros and cons. I've seen each class do some crazy shit with the proper player behind it. Some things I've noticed with your person though, your not expertise capped which you're going to want to get to help with both threat and survivability due to parry haste issues. Personally I go with the +parry threat on gloves but until you hit expertise cap I can understand you using it. I'd enchant your cloak with 22agi and your chest with +10 to all stats. I would get yourself glyph of disease to make your rotation easier. Also I'd respec. Don't go for hysteria and might of mograine those are for dps. Go for either will of the necropolis or scent of blood or blood worms. Take 2 points out of epidemic since you'll have glyph of disease so you won't need it. Take those 2 points and finish off the 2 talents you haven't capped.

[vine]

Don't go for hysteria and might of mograine those are for dps. Go for either will of the necropolis or scent of blood or blood worms

This is very misinformed. Please disregard. Seteh you might want to do some more research into Blood, have another read through Satorri's guide.

Hysteria is great boosting your top physical dps, it can really help push you over the line on enrage timers. It's also on a 3min CD so can be used more than once per fight.

Might of Morgraine is a phenomenal threat boost for a tank. Don't threat-cap your raid dps.

Blood worms are terrible for a tank. Terrible. There is no control over when they proc, and they attack from all sides meaning more parries for the tank. Blood tanks rely on Death Strikes for threat and survivability, getting a parry at the wrong time could be fatal.

[Seteh]

Boosting someone elses dps isn't the tanks job, if your hitting enrage timers and that is the make or breaking point then there is something wrong with your set-up. I'm not saying Might of Morgraine isn't good for threat I'm just saying there are some other things that might be more helpful.

[Ltseb]

For starters i'd replace your ony trinket, for DK tanks its kinda crap, go for The Black Heart from ToC 5 man HC, it gives great amount of stam and it procs quite a fair bit. I've got a pretty good spec i think, some ppl would say otherwise, but your more than welcome to have a look.

If your being used as an OT/AoE tank more than the MT then DW frost is a good way to go but for bosses you would be best to stick with blood.

Other than that i say ur doing just fine.

[ForgottenSlayer]

Source: Seteh
Don't go for hysteria and might of mograine those are for dps. Go for either will of the necropolis or scent of blood or blood worms

i agree with Vine Seteh is gravely misinformed
also i love throwning hysteria on my warrior buddy during hero while he death wishes and watch his numbers go thur the roof and not having Might of Morgraine as a blood take is almost as bad as not having the 5% dodge imo
Also Ltseb the trinket out of ony is alot of avoidance so unless your seriously lacking hp i suggest it over the ilvl 200 trinket i use one stam trinket one avoidance trinket
also seteh pallies are"the" tank my dk is geared to the teeth and she still dies randomly .... pallies don't die randomly

[clangunn]

Hey all - thanks for all the great replies!

Don't go for hysteria and might of mograine those are for dps.

Hysteria is great boosting your top physical dps, it can really help push you over the line on enrage timers. It's also on a 3min CD so can be used more than once per fight.

It was always my impression that Hysteria was a double sided coin. First, like Vine and Slayer mention its an incredible buff to a melee dps. Second, however, am I crazy for using it as an additional threat generation tool? My rule of thumb thus far has been if I have a physical DPS class pushing 3k dps in a pug they get Hysteria on every cool down. If, however, the group are all sitting around 2k dps I just blow it on myself since it benefits my damage (and thus the groups total) + generates additional threat for those heartstrike cleaves, my tab targets RS, and auto attacks. I sit at around 2k DPS while tanking unbuffed - thus the logic.

If your being used as an OT/AoE tank more than the MT then DW frost is a good way to go but for bosses you would be best to stick with blood.

Actually, I will probably be fulfilling this role. While I will be raid leading (something that usually implies MT for tanking leads) the other tank is an extremely skilled paladin. That being the case, should I go DW Mace Frost? With current gear I be much closer to Expertise soft cap, while maintaining 8% hit for yellow damage.

If I do go DW Frost do I regem for additional avoidance? Leave it as stam stacked as possible?

Pallies are not "the" tank. In fact if any class was "the" tank it would be warriors as MT and Dk's as OT.

This game is no where near perfectly balanced in regards to roles/classes. It never has been. I played since closed beta. There has always been a strongest (sometimes by an enormous margin) in each of the primary roles - tank, dps, heals. Right now, in tanking, that is the paladin. In addition to that keep in mind that I will be pushing into ICC content which has a high, high undead population. This, I assume, will just emphasize pally tank domination - +4% (or is it 6% dmg), use of two additional AOE nukes (one of which is an aoe stun for trash control), and a bunch of other nifty tools.

That being said - it doesn't mean that guilds are only running with pally tanks. So /shrug.

As for enchants - does the math for +10 to all stats outweigh the straight HP to chest? The threat from STR, the avoidance from AGI, the hp from STA - is there any specific theory crafting out there with insight one way or another?

I also just realized that I equipped my new cloak that I did not have enchanted yet - before I actually use it I will have the +armor enchant. Does AGI provide more benefit?

*edit*

Take 2 points out of epidemic since you'll have glyph of disease so you won't need it.

Okay, another theory question that was probably answered previously. I decided to not use the Glyph of Disease for two reason. I have no difficulty in keeping both diseases up. That being the case, isn't not casting IT/PS an overall net loss of DPS/TPS? I was thinking that burning a rune every 12 seconds that causes no damage would reduce output versus burning two runes for skills that cause moderate damage every 18.

[clangunn]

I hate to bump my own threads, but still looking for a few additional quick answers.

[Jaeden]

Glyph of disease does not provide the benefit that a proper rotation does. It also takes the place of a glyph that contributes more to your dps.

Before you could "roll" higher buffed diseases, so even if all of your procs faded, when you pestilence'd, the buffed diseases renew. EJ has discovered this isn't the case as of 3.3. They refresh properly now based on current buffing.

[vine]

You're missing the point of the Glyph though: it saves runes. Instead of using an FU pair each rotation you only use one U. With proper Death Rune turnover that's an additional HS or DS, both of which hit a lot harder than IT or PS for Blood spec.