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Thread: Fast or slow?

  1. #1
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    Fast or slow?

    Lots of awesome threads lately about PUGing, but now I have a question for folks, Whats pulling to fast and pulling to slow?

    I ask as at times I get yelled at for pulling to slow or not enough mobs, and other times I go to fast and grab to many. I think I have a good rhythm, and my wife sitting next to me on Heal duty certainly helps me dictate the speed we go at, but I was just curious how far/many packs will you grab for your DPSers to chew up.

    Example for me would be like heroic nexus, I run to the first mob at the entrance kill it, run to the next mob/ group, kill it, and then rinse repeat. There is no real down time, its all really steady and basic. See mob, Kill mob, Look for new mob. (If that makes sense) Doing it this way, seems best for my wife's mana, and the mana of anyone else, however I still get yelled at, mainly by rogues, on slow pulling, or not grabbing enough packs of mobs.
    Last edited by Sennex; 01-04-2010 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #2
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    It's all dependant on the group you're with. If the healer can handle the load and more importantly, if you can keep aggro on all the mobs then pull big groups/pull really fast.

    If I'm with guildies then usually the healer will pull the next group because the DPS does such high threat that I cannot leave mobs trailing without losing aggro, even if just for a second.... I hate losing threat...

    In general I'll start off slowly with a pug and see where they're at. If they can keep up I speed up.

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  3. #3
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    Personally, if I ever get out of combat I consider it pulling to slow.

    If the healer cannot keep up with me I vote kick them till I find one who can. (I should add this has only happened twice in the 100+ heroics since 3.3 healers are usually good its the DPS that are normally terrible)

    To be fair swipe is broken for heroics. I never stop moving and swipe keeps hitting the mobs running after me holding agro on them.



  4. #4
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    it all depends on the pace of teh group themselves, if they're blowing through mobs quickly, i stop doing threat/dps on a mob at 30% because i know it'll die before I lose aggro and I'll normally just run to the next pack at this point, stunning as necessary, and just keep pulling like that, certain instances have zones that are just made to be abused with overgearing like in Utgarde Pinnacle the event right before Skadi normally is 1 pull 1 pull 1 pull and you have to dodge ice as you go, but i normally just run through the boss as he dialogues and just grab all 5-6 packs at once, establish aggro and call for AoE.

    Basically, "FAST" is as fast as your group can handle without people dying including yourself (so don't go pulling so many you die before the healer gets to you!), and slow well, slow is anytime people feel they're not doing enough, if a healer complains you're going to "slow" but the dps is barely keeping up, it usually means you're not taking enough damage for the healer to feel fulfilled and wants you to pull more even if that means being very slow in dps, so ask th ehealer to go offspec dps with some heals, and just continue the run as such (i often run heroics with a boomkin healing me)

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  5. #5
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    I would agree with Kaz: Fast is pulling more than the DPS can effectively kill before you start to die (healer gets stressed). Slow is pulling one mob at a time and it is dead well before you have pulled the next mob. ie. your lowest dps is the healer at 800 dps, then you at 2.1k, then the rogue doing 3k and you are pulling 2 mobs at a time: You are pulling too slow.
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  6. #6
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    Appropriate speed is always dictated by how much you can handle before one of these things happens:

    1. You loose aggro
    2. You die
    3. The rest of the party dies to incidental AoE (a reason why i rarely pull as much in HoL, your party can be jibbed).

    If you take enough damage that you need the healer to have a steady pulse, your pace is dictated by the healer.

    If you don't, then your pace is dictated by how much you can hold aggro on, and how much damage the party will take by you tanking all those adds.

    Example: My warrior needs very few heals in his block gear because most damage is mitigated to zero or avoided. Because of this I'm not as much concerned with how little mana the healer has (except on bosses that might hurt) as I am the number of mobs i can safely hold because i've always got a ton of rage.

    Example2: My dk takes steady damage without block and needs to be healed periodically based on the number of adds. Because of this and my rune-refresh (5 seconds of down-time after each pull, basically) my top concerns are healer mana and making sure dps don't pull or strip me while i'm low on runes. Pace isn't as much of an issue here. A "fast" run for a dk means he is using his runes as soon as they come off cd, and never using a blood tap for vamp blood or some other secondary cd (that would waste runes needed to keep the threat rotation slightly faster).

    So as you can see, just between two classes there is a monumental diffirence from fast run to slow run. What I would consider pretty slow on my warrior alt is top-speed for my dk just because of the rune mechanic. On the same token, what is pretty-slow for a paladin is probably "the most i can hold aggro on" for a warrior.

    Basically the run-down from fastest to slowest:
    Paladin-Warrior-Druid-DK

    If you think something on that list is out of place (besides druids, who are debatable) i'd love to debate it.

  7. #7
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    depends on the woman... some like it fast, some just want a slow and steady pace... wait, what are we talking about?

    oh... pugs... yeah, theyre about the same.

  8. #8
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    Ask yourself the following:

    1) Can the healer keep up?
    2) Can YOU stay alive?
    3) Can the DPS kill everything in a reasonable amount of time without needing to break?

    If the answer to all the above is yes, pull faster. If not, don't.

  9. #9
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    My only inviolate rule is "never pull faster than you can hold aggro". The best test of this that I can think of is the cave leading up to Tyrannus in PoS. Virtually all tanks will try to do this in two chunks; one from the cave mouth to the disc set in the floor, and one from the disc to the other end of the cave.

    My observation has been that of the ones that try this, a third handle it with no problems, a third hold aggro fine but get into heal trouble by the time they stop, and the rest leak mobs like a sieve.

    I assure you, it is no fun to chase a tank who is constantly ducking in and out of range, trying to keep him alive solely with instants while a pack of mobs wail on him from behind, the whole time trying not to die to a bunch of skeletons that the tank couldn't be arsed to pick up.

    This is exactly what happens when you pull too fast in heroics.

  10. #10
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    It's quite easy in my opinion, you should pull as fast as is possible as long as your healer has 50%+ mana. Mages may complain, screw them. As long as the healer is ready, you should pull. If the healer asks for a mana break, pause.
    When mobs are going to die aggro'd on you, whether you hit them or not, look for other mobs to pull.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jafager View Post

    I assure you, it is no fun to chase a tank who is constantly ducking in and out of range, trying to keep him alive solely with instants while a pack of mobs wail on him from behind, the whole time trying not to die to a bunch of skeletons that the tank couldn't be arsed to pick up.
    Here! here!

    As a druid i have experienced both the healing and tanking side of this instance.

    And I consider to do a decent job in the gauntlet, on average i can hold aggro without any problems, save the triggerhappy dps-ers who consider it's their duty to start dps on a mob i have barely a swipe in.

    What i have found it helps with the above scenario while tanking: VuhDo. Yes, that addon lists the persons who are attacked, so i know i should grab aggro from them. If the case is more severe, the aoe taunt gets used.

    To this day i have not killed anybody in that place.

    In reply to the thread, i find the limit to my speed are the high dps 5k+ gearscore aggro monkeys on multiple (4+ mobs) pulls single target nuking:

    On some of the runs this happens: skull is marked for nuke target
    monkey #1 dps's skull
    Monkey #2 dps's unmarked mob #2
    MOnkey #3 dps's unmarked mob #3

    One of the monkeys(say #2) now draws agro, gets taunted, the #3 monkey gets agro now. Yay, gotta switch from skull target to apply some threat on mob #3.
    Now the skull mob gets loose...yay

    And in my current Heroics set i can put out about 5-6k tps on single target, and about 2k tps with a little care on the offtargets. Plenty for aoe i'd say, but...

  12. #12
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    Generally I see how the healer goes, making sure they're close and look ready. DPS are irrelevant for pulls, I can tank something until they are ready to join in so it's just about me managing the right load for the healer. Of course, i outgear heroics by a big margin and wear a blocking set for them, so i need little healing, but I like to keep the pace good for everyone to allow a smooth, argument free, run.
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  13. #13
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    If healer can keep up I go as fast as charge cooldown allows. Charging next pack of mobs even if not all dead on previous yet.

  14. #14
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    Yup, most limiting factor is aggro. I too have had aggro monkeys each picking a different mob. In those cases, even two mobs might be too many.
    If that is not the problem then I'm limited by the healer. DPS can sit and drink and join the fight a couple of seconds later. Actually this makes tanking much easier. Gives me a nice aggro lead. And I get to keep my rage.

    I once really laughed when a newbie pally tank pulled and screwed up because he had no mana. When he apologized for pulling while oom I told him that that's ok, warriors do it all the time. I guess that was an eye opener. Nevertheless I did stop shielding him afterwards. Sometimes I like torturing pallie tanks. Disc priests can be so mean

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  15. #15
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    I generally pull at the rate of my DnD cooldown, assuming the mobs aren't single targets. With all of the AOE-happy DPS in PUGs these days I can't afford to not have the extra threat.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnurken View Post
    If healer can keep up I go as fast as charge cooldown allows. Charging next pack of mobs even if not all dead on previous yet.
    I hope by charge, you mean Charge AND Intercept? ^^'

  17. #17
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    Measure the DPS by how fast the first few mobs get burned down. It's good that your wifey is next to you and your healer, because it will be easy to communicate her level of comfort to you. That makes it easy, go as fast as she's comfortable, and gauge the rest on the competency of the DPS.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sennex View Post
    Lots of awesome threads lately about PUGing, but now I have a question for folks, Whats pulling to fast and pulling to slow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sennex View Post

    I ask as at times I get yelled at for pulling to slow or not enough mobs, and other times I go to fast and grab to many. I think I have a good rhythm, and my wife sitting next to me on Heal duty certainly helps me dictate the speed we go at, but I was just curious how far/many packs will you grab for your DPSers to chew up.

    Example for me would be like heroic nexus, I run to the first mob at the entrance kill it, run to the next mob/ group, kill it, and then rinse repeat. There is no real down time, its all really steady and basic. See mob, Kill mob, Look for new mob. (If that makes sense) Doing it this way, seems best for my wife's mana, and the mana of anyone else, however I still get yelled at, mainly by rogues, on slow pulling, or not grabbing enough packs of mobs.
    As a healer, I like to run them as fast as possible..And I like a tank that just goes into psycho pull mode..If I need him to stop for mana, I will say mana..I blow my cooldowns for mana regen regularly and chug mana pots during the pulls and mana food from the moment the fight stops till I need to get up and start throwing heals on the group always considering my positioning before sitting down to eat because I dont want the tank to stop pulling..And I think if the tanks and the healers are in sync speed is down to your pve style..

  19. #19
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    On my Pally, who I learned to tank on, I know my limits and can keep up with just about any pace on any heroic. If left to my own devices, I'll try to pull fast enough that Divine Plea never falls off. She's also great at AoE agro and has a lot of tools to grab agro back if she loses it. So, I'm comfortable pulling at however fast folks want to pull at. She pretty much outgears all the heroics with the possible exception of the new 5 mans, so I know i can hold on for a while without needing a healer (I actually solo'ed the Magnatuar boss in UP for 5 minutes when the healer died to an impale... Seal of Light ftw). This doesn't mean that I don't pay attention to my groupmates or periodicly ask "mana break?" or "we ready?". A little courtesy goes a long way.

    On my warrior, who is only 55 (and I've only been tanking since 45 or so on), I'm a LOT more cautious. He has a lot more problems when somebody else gets agro (particularly AoE agro), so I tend to pull smaller packs that I know I can handle. I had a DPS constantly pulling the next group and dragging them back to me. Nothing is more aggravating than not having the rage (or having the rage and having my AoE Taunt or Thunder Clap on Cooldown) to do anything. I also don't have as good a feel for how much he can bite off without stressing out the healer.

    So, my answer is a predictable "It depends". If I know I can handle just about anything without demanding a lot of support, I'll crank through with 15 seconds max between pulls. If I'm unsure of my own capabilities and know I have deficiencies, I'll pull what I KNOW I can handle. It may be agonizingly slow for some people, but slow pulls is better than a corpserun and repair bill.

  20. #20
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    Generally my deciding factor is Death and Decay, which while not the best way to gen aggro at times, I have found it to be a great way to grab aggro from Locks getting nuke happy. (Not saying this will work for everyone, it just suits my playstyle)

    Also my wife, she tends to throw things at me if I move to fast.

    Talking with a buddy of mine, also on these forums (Hi Raij!!). He managed to damn near nonstop pull H Nexus the other day. The Misanthropy - Lothar guys have screens of it where the one pug in the group asked if they had hacked the game and enabled God mode. He could better tell teh story, but I guess he was pulling bosses to other bosses and whatnot. It was hysterical to listen on Vent to.

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