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Thread: What's the deal w/ Hit Rating, is the cap still needed?

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    What's the deal w/ Hit Rating, is the cap still needed?

    Until recently I'd always made sure I had the 8% melee hit cap, more to ensure Taunts don't miss than for threat. However, recently other tanks have been telling me you don't need to gem or enchant for hit, just go with what your gear has, even if it's below the 8% cap.

    So after a few gear upgrades of not gemming for Hit, I dropped from 9% Hit to 4.5%. I've only raided once since then in ToC, but didn't have a problem w/ Taunts missing on Gormok.

    It seems most progression tanks I see are expertise-heavy and hit-starved these days, due to gear stats, and that this is causing no problems for them.

    Did Bliz make some stealth change to the Hit or Taunt mechanics or something, or did I just get lucky in that one raid and the other tanks are wrong?

    My most recent Armory (in dps gear atm) and Wow-heroes cache (tank gear up-to-date here).

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    Hit generally isn't a very important stat for a Tank and should never be gemmed for. The only exception to this are bosses that need to be taunted. After failing a bunch of taunts on Saurfang I've decided that Glyph of Taunt is an absolute must lol.

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    I believe what they're doing is using the taunt glyph only for fights where a missed taunt will cause a wipe.

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    The problem is there isn't much we can do, if we want to continue to do our main role of surviving encounters we have to take upgrades, and blizz designs the gear, and if the gear doesn't have hit, then we don't get it, it's that simple.

    In naxx i had 52 expertise coming out but only 120 hit, at the end of ulduar i had 23 expertise and 340 hit, at the end of togc i had 49 expertise and 200 hit. It goes where the gear goes, sure you can try to balance it by gemming but then you're sacrificing stats to do this, or you can try to balance it by holding onto old gear, but then you're doing yourself and your raid a disservice by doing this. A tight rotation, and using better fixes like Glyph of Taunt/Vigilance are your ideal situations to make up for hit/expertise fluctuations and maintaining your continuous growth as a tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarock View Post
    I believe what they're doing is using the taunt glyph only for fights where a missed taunt will cause a wipe.
    Yup.

    And a lot of tank gear has expertise on it, it isn't uncommon for a tank to be over the soft cap (26), which generally makes up for low hit, except for the taunt issue, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtosis View Post
    Until recently I'd always made sure I had the 8% melee hit cap, more to ensure Taunts don't miss than for threat. However, recently other tanks have been telling me you don't need to gem or enchant for hit, just go with what your gear has, even if it's below the 8% cap.
    As a quick note, the taunt hit cap is 17% "spell" hit

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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    As a quick note, the taunt hit cap is 17% "spell" hit
    While this is true, between the +3% spell hit buff, whatever innate hit you may have and glyph of taunt, your taunt is generally pretty high hit rate. I only have 66 hit in my EHP gear which is 2.01% hit, however with glyph (8%) and the spell hit buff that's 13% of the 17% needed. I've only ever missed 1 taunt that I can think of while glyphed(missed one on saurfang the other night, I was surprised). MAYBE 2. Warriors can kind of cheat and vigilance whoever they are supposed to taunt off of and get infinite taunts (well... as the GCD allows).

    Edit: correction, it's 2.01% melee hit, but 66 hit is 2.52% spell hit.
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  8. #8
    Ok, thanks everyone, will just stock up on Glyph of Dark Command then. Hate losing a major glyph slot to that, but I suppose re-glyphing is both more cost and stat effective than regemming between fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    As a quick note, the taunt hit cap is 17% "spell" hit
    Yeah, I should have said 264 hit rating, since that gives 8% melee hit and even more spell hit. I've found 264 hit rating + raid boss debuffs to be enough to never miss a taunt.

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    For those who want quick conversions:

    263 hit rating is 8% melee hit cap for specials and 1h.
    This works out to about ~10% spell hit (i.e. taunts, and fun stuff like exorcism for paladins and the like). Spell hit cap is 17%, the glyph is 8%, so hit cap + glyph nets you 18% spell hit on taunts.

    26 expertise wipes all dodges from the table, but still leaves ~7.5% chance to be parried.

    Draenei give 1% hit, if you are alliance. Love your shaman healers and make them part of your party in a raid, for hit as well as party-only totems like tremor.

    3% debuffs can come from spriests or lazerbudgies. But remember, they have to land that debuff. It's like Gormokk where it's established, you are OK, but if you are trying to taunt a mob that got pulled accidentally, you don't have the benefit.

    So, as Agg pointed out, horde can hope for 13% spell hit in normal circumstances, alliance can count on up to 14%. Therefore your chance to miss is 3-4%.

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    Hit rating is never required, though that does not universally translate into "never gem for hit."

    My experience has been that with Warrior, Paladin, and Bear tanking you won't usually notice not being soft-capped on hit. You'll do a little less threat, but the hit rating on typical tank gear you will find is enough that it'll be a pretty slim margin, so you won't *really* feel much upgrading from adding more hit, it'll just improve your margins.

    For DKs I've generally been more of a fan of trying to meet that hit cap. There's a reliability factor in using rune abilities that makes a big difference in the feel of your threat, though ultimately the fine print is the same. You never *need* hit.

    Like was said above, if you *need* to not miss a taunt, use the glyph, though I've managed to get away without even doing that.
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    do hit and expertise work together for melee? i.e. 4% hit and 4% expertise. this is excluding specials and spell of course.

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    There isnt much fight where missing a taunt cause a wipe (even for saurfang it's not true); plus as a DK, you have 2 taunts, the chance that they will both fail in a row are pretty low, even with low hit rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uglie View Post
    do hit and expertise work together for melee? i.e. 4% hit and 4% expertise. this is excluding specials and spell of course.
    No, your physical attacks, in general, can be crits, hits, dodged, parried, blocked ormiss. expertise reduces the chance they will be parried or dodged, hit rating reduces the chance they will be miss, there is bugger all to reduce the chance your attacks will be blocked

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtosis View Post
    Ok, thanks everyone, will just stock up on Glyph of Dark Command then. Hate losing a major glyph slot to that, but I suppose re-glyphing is both more cost and stat effective than regemming between fights.

    Yeah, I should have said 264 hit rating, since that gives 8% melee hit and even more spell hit. I've found 264 hit rating + raid boss debuffs to be enough to never miss a taunt.
    In my experience glyphing Dark Command is really never necessary as a Death Knight. If your primary taunt misses in a taunt fight, just Death Grip. Even with NO hit whatsoever on your gear and just the 3% from shadow priests/laser parrots you have about a 2% chance to miss both taunts.

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    On Saurfang where a taunt can wipe the raid, the easiest thing to do is put up Vig on the second tank. That way, everytime the secondary tank is hit, it refreshs taunt and its highly doubtful that it would miss twice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    On Saurfang where a taunt can wipe the raid, the easiest thing to do is put up Vig on the second tank. That way, everytime the secondary tank is hit, it refreshs taunt and its highly doubtful that it would miss twice.
    I used to rely soley upon the vig trick for Gormok, then I got 3 resists in a row. (I squeezed a mocking blow in between 2 and 3, but you still have to taunt after mocking) Now I glyph and employ the vigilance trick.

    Because missing a taunt sucks, especially when your sure you have it covered. Even glyphed I missed 2 last night (not criticals, but on Dreamwalker I missed one on a lich and one on an abom) so heroic throw saved the day! I only run with about 81 hit rating... so I'm not quite capped even with the glyph and debuffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uglie View Post
    do hit and expertise work together for melee? i.e. 4% hit and 4% expertise. this is excluding specials and spell of course.
    You should read http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table , some of the points are outdated but it accurately explains the mechanics, which is essentially what you are asking. It also helps explain why expertise is as good or better than hit as a melee stat for tanks.

    For the rest I recently found hit to be important in the oddest of places: When off-speccing as a holy pally. I kept trying to get my judgment of wisdom to get 2% mana and 20% increased cast speed, only to keep missing it because I didn't spec into the 4% extra hit in the holy tree. FTL.

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    my god, last night on BQL, i think my thunderclap missed 18 times in a row or something... that's a long ass time to go without 20% debuff... seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    my god, last night on BQL, i think my thunderclap missed 18 times in a row or something... that's a long ass time to go without 20% debuff... seriously.
    See, this is why I bring my OWN god damned debuffs as a tank. Because if I rely on a slouch like Kaze we'd never get stuff done! (just kidding Kaze).

    But yeah, a little redundancy once in a while never hurts, if people like Kaze have a bad streak, or lesser mortal just get gibbed mid fight and you are short handed.

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