How highly do you prize server ranking?

[Mert]

My guild has recently made the jump to 25-man raiding after doing solid 10-mans through most of Tier 8 and 9. As a result, we're a little behind the curve on 25-man, partly due to the fact we're still in the "gelling" period and getting used to running a larger raid.

We tore through ICC only to come unstuck at Saurfang, only managing to beat him on New Year's Day. Even despite that, we're currently ranked 12th on our server, up from 28ish when we first started running regular 25-mans.

However, we are now faced with a decision - we can either extend the lockout with Saurfang down, starting Wednesday with the full four hours on Festerface and pals or we start the save anew.

In other words, we give ourselves less time (if any) on the new bosses on opening night in exchange for loot and badges and more Saurfang shenanigans.

What would you do? I know server rank is just server rank and maybe all we should care about is ourselves but as a motivator, recruitment tool and so on, server rank does carry a lot of weight. Interested in your thoughts

[Onyxstar]

Could your guild use the upgrades you would gain in the process? Is it worth locking it out - if you are having problems with execution on DBS, you are probably going to run into some issues with the next encounters. You have limited attempts on the last boss- but you need to determine what is causing the hang up.

Server rank - is just that. I do understand exactly what you mean- it helps on recruitment- and as a motivator, but in the end, if the people only join your guild due to rank, what happens when you do release it - or you hit the proverbial wall, where you have those nights of wiping? Are those people going to stick around?

Are you running 10s on offnights for practice/upgrades? Have you looked and figured out what was causing the problem with DBS? (positioning, execution, strat?)

Rank is great- and I understand it being motivational- but is it really a true picture if you can't repeat the kill? (just food for thought)

[Bashal]

Early in the expansion my guild did joint raiding with another guild, so we could do 25-mans. I think at one point our guild peaked at around 12th on the server because of this. Even now, even though the guild never got very far into ulduar in 25-mans, we're still somehow ranked around 23 or 24 on the server for 25-man progression, according to guildox...which I think is weird.

We certainly got more whispers inquiring about the guild and were we looking for this or that. But of those who joined our guild because of rank (I was upfront about the joint-raid thing for 25s, and that there was no room in it for new people currently), none of them are still in the guild.

Point is, the server rank can give people false expectations about your guild, and probably isn't as useful as some may think.

That's my two cents on it.

[Darksend]

Need a little more info

days per week/hours per day that you spend on 25 mans

edit: also server rank really means nothing unless you are top 3.

[Proletaria]

edit: also server rank really means nothing unless you are top 3.

This. Unless you have a closely ranked guild to feud with. That's always fun.

[Verg]

I understand your issue, Mert. I am not a raid leader/GM/officer, but our guild advertises itself as semi-casual. This causes issues for us sometimes because new recruits sometimes get the wrong idea about our motivation. We want to clear content and see the endgame as far as we can. Most of us are, however, not going to kick, scream, and yell if we take longer than other guilds to down boss x, encounter y, event z, etc. The only time we do so is if people are creating unecessary wipes or failing very obviously at dps/heals/tanking.

The other problem we run into is that we have people with varying levels of motivation as far as content. I am sure this is problematic in all guilds. Some people are in it for shinier loot. Some people (like me) really like the lore and content that they present (hence my quick distaste for the Coliseum stuff). Others want to be #1 with achievements, titles, drakes, etc. My GM does an amazing job (most of the time) managing all of our various individual goals and creating a unified guild. Even with the occasional drama, our core is extremely strong on a server with a generally weak player base (that is my opinion only).

I think the bottom line is, what do your guildies value...what is your guild "philosophy" if you will. If it is to be #1, then you need to step up your game and become hardcore and serious. If it is just to get as far as you can with the people you like to play with, then I think you are probably doing just great.

[Onyxstar]

Actually, Verg hit the nail on the head- your "mission statement"- your "ideals" you need to recruit and build upon this - or your guild will not survive. If you base it on rank, it comes and goes- so will those people - after the next bigger better thing.

This is what I was getting at. Truth, blunt, upfront, sit in on a raid (we all know raids have bad nights) but a true idea of what your guild is about is the best thing you can do for yourself and your guild.

Personally, we aren't locking out ICC. The gear is beneficial and it should not take but a night at 3 hrs or < to get it cleared. If DBS is truly kicking your collective ass, you need to figure out why, and quickly.

[Fledern]

Server rank goes up faster if you do stuff most other guilds skip - even if you do them late. Kill Algalon now & your rating will probably skyrocket. Do alone in the darkness, your rating will skyrocket. There are ways to play the numbers game.

Server rank gives a nice warm, fuzzy feeling to your guildmembers though. It's a nice morale thing, especially when you get stuck on a boss.

As for extending raid lockout, i find it creates more trouble than is worth it. Start anew, get people more practice & loot. Extending i found only works on old content where you're aiming for that just one achievement and dont want the boredom of clearing stuff again.

[Shortypop]

Server rank is a weird thing, we've recently gotten into our top 10, largely by pursueing Ulduar Hardmodes while working on TotgC, however as far as getting top 10 for new content we have very little chance purely because we choose to raid Thursdays as our first raid night and not Wednesdays (EU server), so we'll definitely be clearing the first set this week, with three raid nights we should still have lots of time

[Gamegear]

If I thought that server ranking was important, I wouldn't be playing where I am right now.

[Gretchin]

If you don't want to spend 1 - 1,5 hours (or whatever you use) to clear the first wing in Icecrown to get a few upgrades that might make the new fights a tiny bit easier to deal with then extend the save.

Or if server rank is very important to you try to start the raid earlier? A bit short notice perhaps, but maybe in two weeks when the next wing comes this is something you can try out.

Personally I'd say that if you just killed Saurfang this late that you should focus on the semi-farmed content first because of two factors. 1) You need it so your players will be more comfortable there and will be able to clear it even quicker next reset so that you will spend less time with known content. 2) Server rank isn't really all that important and epeen-ish when it's a kill in normal mode. If you can dip into the top 5 or top 10 server wide at the end boss in normal that will most likely look better than a server second on a boss noone really cares that much about, unless it's the end of the wing boss then maybe it would look a tiny bit better.

[Warsreign]

As a raid lead/GM I find it best to focus on what your players need to improve on and where the gear upgrades can be found. Build your raid group up especailly if your just transitioning into 25s from 10s and run the bosses again. You'll get your kills eventually but don't do it at the expense of a week or 2 wait to catch a raiders gear up a bit so the fights run smoother.

Ranking's come and go and as stated before by some they can be off based on higher end guilds skipping achievements and such for later on or holding back to gain those accomplishments before moving on to the next level or boss content.

Also as stated if you use rankings as a primary tool for recruitment you run into a lot of the issues stated before. Trust if they are commetted individuals, personnel epeen by having the guilds title, or using that guild as a stepping stone for the next higher guild. As any raid lead or GM will tell you, only those that survive make it because their people are commetted to the success of the community, not just what they can show off to their friends for. You might have better numbers with it but your turn over rate will also be up as well.

Basically in all focus on the people and what the raid needs to improve over who gets what first because once you have that you'll see firsts and what not later on.

Key note to consider also - how many guilds do you know that focus hard on these server first really last beyond an expansion or 2 if they make it that far. Not to many but those that do have commettment. Many find themselves burning their raiders out because they continue to push for one thing and forget about everything else that goes with it.

[Mert]

Thanks for all the responses, guys. In the end we decided not to extend the lockout, though out of sheer curioscity we did send someone in to test whether or not it would have even been possible - in short, it wouldn't have been. The room behind Saurfang was open, but no trash was present, the bosses had not spawned and the teleporter was not active. We had to summon our guy out and have him revert his lockout. Still, good to know for next time anyway.

That said, I've found this to be a very interesting discussion all the same and I thank you all for your input. I disagree with the notion that unless you're in the top 3 it makes no difference as this is simply not the case on my server. Our server is dominated by a single guild who get every realm first and are working their way up the world ladder. Beneath them are two "hardcore" guilds that don't compete anywhere near the level of the top one but are still very exclusive.

This leaves a large gulf beneath them where excellent players are looking for a regular raiding spot but are unable to get into those three top guilds. In fact, only yesterday we received an application from someone who when asked why he'd chosen to apply to Aranoch said that it was because we were a Top 10 guild and therefore around his own personal level of progression.

Our guild's "mission statement" would be to form a close-knit guild of friends who want to see all the content. We're not a social guild, though we all get on incredibly well with each other and this is encouraged. However, if someone is not performing or not attending then irrespective of social ties, they are asked to leave, at least until they're able to perform again at the level we require. We have a lot of fun raiding and many of us have met in real life. We have couples in our guild, we have annual guild meetups. Our aim has always been to take the best parts of hardcore raiding (progression focus, being at the top of your game, seeing every scrap of content) and mix it with the best parts of social guilds (the tight-knit "family", the things to do when you're not raiding).

That's not to say we always succeed at this, but we do quite well I think. We started off doing 10-man stuff and built our reputation there as one of the best 10-man guilds on the server. Since I took over as GM, I was basically tasked by my membership to repeat our success in the 25-man world and slowly but surely we are getting there. We're a long way off pushing for the #1 spot, but as long as we stick to our policy of being a group of friends who see all the content as quickly as we can then I'll have a very happy guild. Most of them are motivated by server rank as they see it as a measure of our guild ethos working in the face of many people who told us it would never work rather than by the number in and of itself, if that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks all for your replies and feel free to continue discussing - it's a topic I certainly find very interesting.