Prot Warrior - Need help holding Mob Threat

[DieselJester]

Ok, my first official posting in TankSpot (not counting the contest threads... ). Thank you, TankSpot, for having such an awesome website to help us tanks out! I really appreciate it!

Now to the question...

I am a Protection Warrior with 15/5/51 in my talents.
Defense Rating: 541
Hit Rating: 276 (for a 8.42% melee chance to hit)
Expertise Rating: 17

Glyphs Using:
Majors; Blocking, Heroic Strike, Revenge (thinking about changing either HS or Revenge back to Sunder Armor)
Minors; Battle, Thunder Clap, Charge

Character Profile on the armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

*I am aware that I do need to update my trinkets* I wanted to focus on getting the armor upgrades first since before 3.3 went live I had lvl 200 shoulders and boots.

*Still waiting on a better shield to drop somewhere*

Be advised though, my new sword is not showing up on the Armory for some odd reason... Link to it is here...
Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows:
Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows - Item - World of Warcraft

Now even with some of the upgrades that I have recieved (upgraded my shoulders and weapon last night, haven't raided with them just yet), I still seem to be having problems getting spread out mobs to focus on me and not the squishies in my party (thank God that my guild is a forgiving one... lol). This is especially a problem in Heroic Halls of Reflection. When it comes down to bosses, or even 1 to 3 elites at a time, there's no problem (especially if they're melee), they won't give my party a second glance. It's when the number goes up to about 5 or more and its a decent mix of casters and melee (again, Heroic Halls of Reflection...).

I typically stay in Defensive Stance when tanking. My usual Rotation is Shield Slam, Devastate, Revenge, Concussion Blow, Heroic Strike, Shockwave with me going back to SS whenever Sword and Board produces. Toss in a mix of Sheild Bash, Spell Reflection, Shield Wall, etc etc... as the situation calls for.

Almost forgot... I use the character auditor on be.imba.hu to see what I need in terms of proper enchants for my armor and to see where I'm lacking in stats and where I stand gear-wise.

I think that is about it. Any comments/constructive criticism would be most welcomed, especially if it helps me be a better tank for my guild.

Thank you in advance,

DieselJester
AKA: Krudge-Kirin Tor

[Aggathon]

HoR is actually just fairly tricky in general. You have to use all the tools you have: spell reflect, taunt, heroic throw, LoSing around corners to try and get them to the same spot, etc. Also due to hit box issues a lot of shockwaving then stepping back to get positioning is pretty important. Lots of cleave/tclap/spellreflect and your party focus firing should help out a lot. Charge, Intercept, and Intervene are also very powerful here.

[Wiredude]

I'm by no means an expert, but I think I see a couple things.
I see a couple of abilities missing in your rotation. 1) No Thunderclap. That's our absolute best AoE threat tool. 2) No Cleave. Cleave hits at least 2 targets (3 w/ glyph), Heroic Strike hits only one, I use Cleave as a rage-dump in multi-mob situations, instead of HS, I'd recommend doing that. Remember to, with larger packs you need to tab through and cycle your target, keeping threat on everyone. Another thing that I've found to be a major help is marking targets & kill order. Kill the damn casters early, then they won't wander off on you.
Also, ditch the Quel'Delar sword. It's just not fast enough. Because HS (and Cleave) are large parts of our threat-gen, and both work off of the "next melee swing" mechanic, we want as many swings as we can get in.
I tanked Halls of Reflection last night for the first time, and it's not an easy encounter for a warrior IMO. I tried using the altar to LoS the casters/hunters, to draw them in, but your healer has to watch you don't LoS from them in the process. Remember that we warriors have some great caster-control abilities as well, Shield Bash one caster, then charge the one across the room, the first one will follow along because of the silence due to Gag Order. Or use Heroic Throw, same silence effect, but it's a ranged attack.
A technique that was mentioned to me that I really enjoy using if I've got 2 casters spread apart is to Heroic Throw one, and Charge the other. It takes some practice, but it's fun when you get it right.
Also, on HoR, I found that trying to use Shield Block whenever it was up seemed to help a great deal as well.

[voltrex]

Per the previous reply, you need to use Thunderclap and Cleave for AOE threat. Never let Thunderclap go off CD - keep spamming it.

Don't forget to use Vigilence. It can make a huge difference if you have some high powered DPS burning down the mobs behind you.

Again, the previous replies cover things pretty well.

[Aggathon]

Also, ditch the Quel'Delar sword. It's just not fast enough. Because HS (and Cleave) are large parts of our threat-gen, and both work off of the "next melee swing" mechanic, we want as many swings as we can get in.

That's not entirely accurate. I would ditch the Quel'Delar for other reasons, namely because it's not a tanking weapon. However, the part about faster weapons being better isn't exactly true. For heroic strike threat yes, because heroic strike says "this ability generates a high amount of threat." or whatever, so the more you get the more threat, even if it's less damage per hit, obviously depending on the disparity between the dps's of the two weapons.

HOWEVER, cleave does not have this added modifier, it is only weapon damage and I've found that I typically generate more threat using the slower by higher end weapon Burnished Quel'Serrar than I did from Titanguard or Sorthalis. Also DW is based off of weapon damage, so a slower but harder weapon increases your DW ticks. It also adds more threat to devastate because devastate is based off of weapon damage as well. IMO in an AoE stituation slower good. However yes, for single target a faster weapon does eek ahead. And I'm also talking about a 2.0 weapon not a 2.6, so it could be TOO slow if it's much slower than 2.2.

[DieselJester]

LOL... I guess I should've explained my rotation better. I do use Thunderclap and Cleave a lot (comes in under the etc... etc... section there in my first post). I'm pretty much using every single one of my abilities that I can.

Quel'Delar has been a massive upgrade for me. Yeah, I know that I need a better tanking weapon, but in the meantime, that's what I got. When i get a better tanking weapon drop, Quel'Delar's gonna be regulated to my DPS offspec.

I use Vigilance religiously. Especially with our guild mage in my group who's pumping out 3K of DPS.

So then I guess the question then is; do I need to move around a lot to pick up the scattered mobs or what?

[Balagar]

Threat was an issue for me when i first switched my druid to tank. But, if you dont have it already, download this program: Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.2.27

Great for finding best in slot for your gear, but also gives you an idea of which skill builds the most threat, and that can help you set up a rotation to use

[uglybbtoo]

So then I guess the question then is; do I need to move around a lot to pick up the scattered mobs or what?

Or do it the slackers way get all the dps and healer and you to HIDE LOS behind the little setback behind one of the none active bosses. The casters and riflemen have no option but to group up to get to you.

[Fledern]

HOWEVER, cleave does not have this added modifier, it is only weapon damage

not quite true. Check out the table at http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...at-values.html

Cleave does have an additional threat component but it's spread over however many targets it hits, thus not that great. But in a multimob situation, it does make a difference.

HoR is one MAJOR hate. Riflemen freeze you up, mercenaries cheapshot you and move over to your healer, priests fear etc. Mages stand at range and pop a clone. Basically your group has to work with you. Usually we target the priest first, cc the rifleman and i reflect tank the mage. Heroic throw doesnt do shit to get the rifleman to you and if you dont have any cc in the group, you're pretty much screwed. Right now my biggest pet peeve is the footman enraging while the mercanary has cheapshotted me and is working on the healer while the mage is still casting which i cant spellreflect since i'm stunned.

My even greater anger is how easy paladins can tank this place. I've been one of those that dont place that much credit to tanking class disparities but icecrown has really blown the paladin/warrior difference to ridiculous proportions.

On the lich king kiting encounter, keep your tclap & shockwave on cooldown, heroic throw the casters as far out as possible. If your dps team is good just leave the leaping ones to them, they dont hurt that much unless they're all together and they die easily.

Overall the spreading of mobs and the number of casters make the new 5-mans really hard for a warrior. I've learned to love spellreflect tanking, you can easily shave off 20% off casters while tanking the melee

[Aggathon]

not quite true. Check out the table at http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...at-values.html

Cleave does have an additional threat component but it's spread over however many targets it hits, thus not that great. But in a multimob situation, it does make a difference.

Fascinating! Duly noted, how does this change cleave?

My even greater anger is how easy paladins can tank this place. I've been one of those that dont place that much credit to tanking class disparities but icecrown has really blown the paladin/warrior difference to ridiculous proportions.

Overall the spreading of mobs and the number of casters make the new 5-mans really hard for a warrior. I've learned to love spellreflect tanking, you can easily shave off 20% off casters while tanking the melee

I've actually heard palidans make the exact opposite claim and say that spell reflect makes the difference. I think what it does is blown the warrior skill differential to ridiculous proportions. You seem like you handled it well. My group 1 shot everything, but it was no cakewalk. It was nice to be challenged for once. However I've also heard of groups with palidans having an even worse time. I did though do a run on my warlock and we managed to get a really solid pally and we used the LoS trick (which I didn't even think of the first time I was in there because I had no idea what was going on, it was just like "OH SNAP MOBS GOTTA PICK THESE UP!!") and he tanked it like it was a breeze. Of course we also had a 258 priest healing us as opposed to a mediocre shaman that healed me in the other group.


Edit: woah woah woah hold on I looked at the table, to me that indicates that the threat is defensive stance + cleave damage threat, there's no additional threat modifiers! Or are you referring to the innate threat thing.

Edit2: Maybe I got caught up because cleave does weapon damage +222 damage to the target and that was ridiculously close to the +225 threat.

[Mäcintosh]

I think this would be my first reply on tankspot. I'm a longtime reader and prolly first time responder. Learned a lot from Tankspot.

As far as tanking heroic HoR, the first time I did it, I was charging and intervening all the casters the shield bash them as well as heroic throw them to get them close to you and the melée mobs. This seemed to work well but was hectic. Kind of fun, but rough since I hadn't tanked anything like that in a while. Usually I've found tanking most multi mobs easy in most heroics till I got into ICC. 5 casters spread out is a toughie.

anyway, just did H HoR again last night. The leader had everyone stay at the back of the hallway where you got ported in and had me at entrance. Not in the room. Leader went in and started the event and wound up having everything funnel to me at the entrance like in HoS in ulduar. Made life much easier. Try that strat and that should help.

Mäcintosh|US|Emerald Dream|Empire of the Dragon

[Griff]

One other comment you made gave me slight pause - you cited a mage in your guild doing 3kdps - that's a scootch on the low side and being able to kill mobs quickly can often be the key to success in a place like that. what's your overall group dps like?

[DieselJester]

Wow, really great advice from everyone! Thank you.

Ok, some of the changes I've made;

1: Quel'Delar has been ditched in favor of Rimefang's Claw.
2: Changed 2 Major Glyphs back to Sunder Armor and Cleaving (Kept Blocking)
3: Chest and Leg Armor Upgraded to lower T9 set (Hellscream Set)

H HoR is still owning my hind end, but I'll keep trying at it. I think that on average I've been going in with groups that have about 10K DPS overall (and that's including myself in that count. I'm pulling down about 1.5K DPS with the gem socketing that I've been doing after ensuring that my required levels are at or above their minimums). The breakdown is typically...

Caster DPS is usually around 3K to 4K
Melee DPS has been anywhere from 2K to 5K
Mine is hovering around 1.5K

I am now holding down threat on mobs a lot better ever since I redid my glyphs, so thank you Wiredude for recommending that. I'll let you all know how H HoR goes the next time I'm in there.

[Aggathon]

Don't use glyph of sunder, use glyph of devastate.

[DieselJester]

I tried using Glyph of Devastate and it seemed to be a real let down. LOL... even my wife commented that my tanking ability dropped when I switched the glyphs out. Glyph of Sunder Armor is better in my opinion because it allows Devastate to hit two different targets (and it's not the same one every time, I've noticed over time) while I'm in melee combat.

Although, the two put together might be an interesting combination. Although, I really don't want to give up Glyph of Blocking or Glyph of Cleaving...

[Aggathon]

the glyph of devastate does not effect glyph of sunder, it is still only one stack, also the threat from glyph of sunder (unless they changed it) is almost non-exsistant. It's pretty much only the 200 something innate threat from it and that's it. The only thing it does would be make cleave hit harder, but I don't prioritize devastate in my rotation to begin with and am tabbing around sundering things with devastate anyways. I just don't see glyph of sunder being good or vital at all.

[cleetis]

Here is what i do as a warrior tank on a couple of occasions when i am trying to get aggro on am multi mob situation...

Situation 1 - mobs are all close together
Before i even start i hit bloodrage, berserker, and then shield block. I pick target "skull" charge at him and shield bash followed immideately by TC. Usually revenge is up by now due to everyone hitting you so i then revenge, shockwave, devastate, demoralizing shout. i am spamming devestate whenever the other spells are on cooldown and using HS as a dump tool. After i get a SS, and revenge on the first target, i tab target through the rest using SS, Revenge or devestate with HS throwin in alot too. This seems to work extremely well for me. I am spamming shockwave and TC whenver i can and occasionally through out Demoralizing shout and Commanding shout for a bit more AOE threat.

Situation 2 - Group with melee and casters, a bit more spread out. I will start with bloodrage, berserker, and shield block just lke situaton 1. i will focus on the rear most mobs, heroic throw run, target the other and charge. As i am passing the other mobs i hit TC then shield bash the target, shockwave, revenge and tab target. this time i spam spell reflect as well whenver it is off cooldown...

this may not be the absolute best way to do things. and i haven tanked HoR yet but i have done alot of reading... on most instances this works perfect with minimal problem. It sounds like HoR you just need to CC the hunter or rifleman and down the casters fast...

[cleetis]

also,
if it were me, there are better chants and gems out there that would better you as a "tank". Your not trying to DPS your trying to stay alive and keep the mobs hitting you.

[cleetis]

and why doesnt everyone like glyph of sunder. the additional mob the sunder hits, helps with AOE threat as well... i use it and i love it...

[Reev]

It wasn't clear to me from your "threat rotation" if you were using heroic strike or cleave concurrent with other abilities or sequentially. It's important to remember that Heroic Strike and Cleave do not have global cooldowns, so you can use them at the same time as you are Shield Slamming, devastating, or whatever.

And Glyph of Devastate is amazing. Glyph of Sunder doesn't do much.