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Thread: Who To Bring? DK? Why?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrekgar View Post
    Why so serious?

    ...

    lol well im not so serious, your the one that got all emotional when i eluded to how much dks are fail tanks. also you should turn caps lock on moar, it matters, tru story

    ...i would answer your questions but its mostly a waste of time and you fail and answering mine so ill pass
    also, ty for confirming your casual and not worth theory crafting with (which kind of begs the question of what your doing on this thread based on the op and your tree hugger 'all tanks can tank' attitude)

    we do LC so you have to need/deserve loot to get it, not just take handouts. and for the record (clearly you didnt read my op) we did gear the dk, it still sucked and it wasnt him. ..."Jimminy crickets son"... redneck much?
    i dont bench people based on class, i just dont stack what we dont need and are raids have a diverse make up with competitive class based spots covering all the raid buffs etc naturally.

    i made my decision before you cleared toc. we mt pally and war, ot with a druid and a pally and were actually recruiting a dk ot since our experiment dps one that we feed gear and helped farm decided its a waste of his time and skill (which we all agree). so ya were looking for a dk ot for gimmick fights if we need one (queen in icc maybe?).


    back to the OP: you’re right dk tanks are mediocre at most fights, wait til they get a buff or add more encounters where they’re useful if your doing anything other then normal mode faceroll.


    ps only thing you said all day worth typing:

    "Paladins. Take them. They are the Current Cream of the crop for tanking. Decked out in Min Maxed armor and weapons they have the highest performance of all the tanks. Take them and heaven help any DK who even dreams of tanking"

    i would add warriors are pretty much tied for first other then not having a built in wings/ad and a longer cd or 2
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-04-2010 at 06:03 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrikL View Post
    I remember a few months ago my realm was full of DK haters but I thought this thing was over by now... I know I am far from your level in both experience and gear but where did you get the idea that DKs are worse than the other tanking classes in general? I mean your whole argument for not thinking they should exist in raids is that they arent better at enough fights. Its not that long ago that they were considered so OP, and so many guild replacing other classes with them, that blizzard had to seriously nerf the class. They might not be the best tanking class in general today, and the general oppinion seems to be that Palys are, but who says thats the way its going to be in the future?
    well, honestly im not trying to be elitist. im not trying to hate on dks persey either...

    i know they were op and i sat for them when they were. i dont expect theyll be like this in cata and ill sit for them then to if needed.

    the point is (back on topic) the op asked what to bring. if youre asking that, youre probly looking to min max your raid.

    ...if not, then obviously bring whatever you want. or be fun about it and bring an all paladin raid, all druid or all shammy and let a shammy tank, that last one would be pretty sweet actually
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-04-2010 at 06:06 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabbitOne View Post
    Let me start by saying if this should be been posted elsewhere I'm sorry. And I intent this in no way to be a flame, I'm just to the point where my eyes are going to bleed and need outside input.


    Basically I'm deciding every week who to bring to our raids. Our tanks are usually myself(prot pally) and a DK OT(either blood or frost). Myself having tanked as a druid, pally, and DK just cannot grasp the point in bringing a DK over any of the other classes. Referring to boss fights anyways. Maybe its just me and the DKs I play with, but for the life of me what are they bringing that the other classes don't do better? Their threat seems superior granted, but if the other classes are high enough or your DPS is smart thats not an issue. Is there something I'm missing or our DKs are doing wrong? Again I don't mean any ill will to wards DKs, I'd love to get more use out of mine. ANY help would be amazing.

    And since I'm sure some one will ask, we only run 10 mans and are doing ICC atm.

    Thanks in advance.
    Just an empty statement without any proof about the things he's talking about, just some wild claim that some numbnut makes about a class supposedly being useless.

    DUDE we've had these threads lately about why to take warriors (they're so bad) why to take druids (they're also so bad) maybe not about paladins.

    I don't like those threads where someone makes a statement and leaves it up to the "community" to disprove them without providing actual proof themselves.

    Come here with logs to prove that deathknights are sooooo underpowered or please keep this kind of posts to your guildforums.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatwan View Post
    well, honestly im not trying to be elitist. im not trying to hate on dks persey either...

    i know they were op and i sat for them when they were. i dont expect theyll be like this in cata and ill sit for them then to if needed.

    the point is (back on topic) the op asked what to bring. if youre asking that, youre probly looking to min max your raid.

    ...if not, then obviously bring whatever you want. or be fun about it and bring an all paladin raid, all druid or all shammy and let a shammy tank, that last one would be pretty sweet actually
    Fair enough, you come across a lot more friendly now :-)

    What I was wondering though, is what is it you think is worse about DKs today compared to the other classes. I mean we all have our pros and cons but you seem to say that for a fact, in general, DKs make worse tanks than the other classes. Otherwise they wouldnt need to be superior in enough fights to warrant existance... If you consider palas (not sure if you do but as an example) to currently be the "best" tanking class, why bring any of the others at all?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabbitOne View Post
    Let me start by saying if this should be been posted elsewhere I'm sorry. And I intent this in no way to be a flame, I'm just to the point where my eyes are going to bleed and need outside input.


    Basically I'm deciding every week who to bring to our raids. Our tanks are usually myself(prot pally) and a DK OT(either blood or frost). Myself having tanked as a druid, pally, and DK just cannot grasp the point in bringing a DK over any of the other classes. Referring to boss fights anyways. Maybe its just me and the DKs I play with, but for the life of me what are they bringing that the other classes don't do better? Their threat seems superior granted, but if the other classes are high enough or your DPS is smart thats not an issue. Is there something I'm missing or our DKs are doing wrong? Again I don't mean any ill will to wards DKs, I'd love to get more use out of mine. ANY help would be amazing.

    And since I'm sure some one will ask, we only run 10 mans and are doing ICC atm.

    Thanks in advance.
    To understand your problem a little bit better, let me turn the question around and ask: Why would you bring the other classes over a DK, or what do the other classes do better than a DK.

    I mean I'm not in your raid so it doesnt matter to me if the DK is on the bench for all eternity but I'm trying to understand your thinking here. There are so many small things people forget I think about other classes than their own. Some examples off the top of my head that DKs can do that I doubt the other classes can: Deathgrip adds in the Lady Deathwhisper fight to reposition them (caster sitting in the middle of a DnD), pop AMS in the Sauerfang fight while tanking when a melee gets hit by Blood Boil (to avoid some extra stacks). Only examples I could think of in the newest content but I am sure there are more. We have a lot of cool downs which should be used generously and I guess a lot of DK tanks forget it.

  6. #26
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    heh fair enough. and i mean those are good question thats i think the OP was shooting for (and ive had myself)...


    Basicly: Why bring a DK? ...based on the perception that they take more dmg....


    As a disclaimer i never mained a warrior or a dk let alone tanked with them. i have observed geared skilled, players tank with all classes and ive noticed/read the following:

    Druids - high dodge to make up for lack of parry, fake block that doesnt really scale well in comparisson to a real blocking class. Neato CD that increases hp rather then mitigating dmg, in addition to the dmg mitigation from barkskin. (good for most fights although when i compare my guilds druid mt to my gear he has less armor, less avoidance, less cds)

    Warriors - dodge/parry/block, pretty much same cds as a pally without AD. imo more of an engaged offensive tank, meaning they charge, intervene, spell reflect, vigelence opposed to passive raid dmg crap a pally does, ie salv, hand of sac, divine sac/guard, bop. (great for everything)

    Pally - dodge/parry/block, good cds (most shorter then the rest, good utility, op aoe threat and a patheticly easy rotation. (great for everything)

    dk - parry/dodge period. several cds with a short reset but thats because they need them. deathgrip and targetable aoe. magic bubble is op but the last 3 things can be done as dps also. (op for magic dmg fights if specd right)


    im pretty sure this has all been said before and better explained by better ppl but bottom line is theres nothing you gain by bringing a tank dk over a dps dk, for the most part. like you said: AMS, id rather have a dps spec it and drop it then that guy be taking the boss hits; death grip, i can easily have my dps dk grip it and taunt it back before it hits the ground.


    this is something pretty dated but http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...evolution.html in other words a tank is a tank is a tank. but it just doesnt seem to pan out that way in reality. theres a reason GC was trolling with blue posts trying to convince people dks are used by many hardcore guilds. really they suffer tbh druid syndrom without the benifit; what i mean is, they tank with their face but they dont have the giant hp pool to make that work or seem attractive. although thats not entirely accurate, they arent meant to tank with their face, rather they must rotate cds.


    i mean maybe i just need to play one, maybe its how you rotate cds and what kind of attack roation you do. i just dont see it.




    if theres a pro dk that tanks ToGC etc id love to hear his opinion... i can tell you we sat our war and used a druid and 2 pallys learning gormak. we sat the druid and used a war and pally on jaxx. we sit the pally and use a war and druid on saurfang due to single target threat (and the pally ot/kites the adds actually). ...certain tanks are better for certain fights.
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-04-2010 at 08:22 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrekgar View Post
    Why so serious?

    DK's dont have to EXCELL at fights. What fights do a Warrior Excell at? Same as the paladins i bet. What fights do BEARS excell at? It is all relative to your definition of Excellence.

    Why WASTE gear on a tank who doesnt excell at a fight? Jimminy crickets son do you have any idea how much of an asshole that makes you sound like? You give TANK gear to a TANK so they can EXCELL at thier job just a little bit better than they did before. Perhaps why your DK tanks suck so much is because your Gimping them from gear that your other tanks DONT NEED.

    I can tell right now your a 5% elietist who would drop someone from a raid just to get a fractionaly tiny change in performance. Ill simplify your decisions right now for you.

    Paladins. Take them. They are the Current Cream of the crop for tanking. Decked out in Min Maxed armor and weapons they have the highest performance of all the tanks. Take them and heaven help any DK who even dreams of tanking for you because your never going to give them a shot. You prejudged them and found them wanting.
    DK tanks do suck that much. If you'd like details on why it is espcially so in ICC, i could write you an essay, but i'd rather not go off on a rant.

    @OP Given equal skill/reliability you should take a paladin over anyone else. After that, it's a toss-up, but in my opinion the dk should be avoided at the present time. And I say that as a DK tank since 3.0 who still plays a DK main.

  8. #28
    You are really making no sense, first you say that DKs are inferior tanks and should be replaced because they do not excel then you go to say that warriors are "Pretty Much Tied" with paladins for best tanking class and then note the things they are lacking. If you truly want to min/max like you say you do you would shelf all tanks except for paladins like the people before you said. Im guessing you play a warrior tank and wouldnt do that though.

    I switched from a paladin tank in TBC to a DK tank in wrath due to the itemization changes for paladins and i can honestly say there hasnt been a single thing that I have felt that I cannot tank or even cannot tank as well as another class. My paladin is geared enough to tank all the same things as my DK and i have never felt once it would be easier on healers if i brought him. I have tanked Ulduar hard modes and I have tanked ToGC although our dps was too low to get the boss down before hitting the timers.

    You state that the DK in your raids has died more than the other tanks and that you waste brezzes on him? I currently tank along side a pally MT and a warrior OT and i can honestly say that I die just as much, if not less, than the warrior tank.

    I also do not understand how you can say it wasnt the DK's skill. Unless you are comparing cooldown uptime on combat log parses i dont think you are understanding when people say they arent playing right. Even then you would not know if they were using cooldowns at the best times in the fight.

    Basically what everyone is trying to say is that the miniscule difference between a well played DK tank and a well played Warrior tank is so small that its retarded to switch based on that alone, and is extremely elitist to do so. This theory of min/maxing the smallest details is really a waste of time for you and your guild. The top guilds in the world clear content first without flasks and in previous tier gear and they seem to do pretty well.

    As always Skill>Gear>Class.

  9. #29
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    Another dumb tank vs tank thread. All tanks work fine. They all have niches. They can all get the job done.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatwan View Post
    well first off youíre a hypocrite, since i also find your post as an uniformed opinion that has no merit on this thread

    then id like to point out your dk doesnít have any 25m achievements or 10m hard modes other then a handful of uld junk ones. if you wanna claim you capable of them maybe you should do one. i digress, bring the player works for 10m trivial content is what i should have said...


    "Not a single tank class is superior to any other."
    overall is debatable, but for specific fights thatís absolutely false

    my point is dk tanks excel at 3 fights i can think of. i dare you to list more.

    therefore, why would you waste tanking rings, trinkets, necks and non-set pieces on them. let alone bring them to encounters they tax your healers on.


    ..im not sayin you wont kill it, but your wasting mana when you donít have to. or, bring less heals more dps and donít use a squishy tank etc.


    ill even appease you point: yes all tanks can tank anything. also, Iíve seen a shammy tank ulduar and a rogue tank BT, doesnít mean its ideal. go ask healers who do real content which class they want tanking for them. then find me one that says they would have wanted a DK for Gormok the week heroic was unlocked.



    What I see here is an elitist without the chop to back it up. You don't have a ToGC Anubarak kill. You don't have any of the even halfway difficult Ulduar hard modes, even though you were clearly doing the zone in November. You don't have an Algalon kill. You want to use ICC as a marker for progression? A zone already being PUGed on a regular basis without wipes?
    I see a tank that plays the most powerful, auto-pilot tanking character ever designed by Blizzard, that does trivial content and trivial content only, passing Judgement on those that play another class.

    I killed Gormokk opening day, as a DK. I killed Algaon, as a DK. I killed 1 light, Firefighter, Freya 3 tree, HM Thorim... as a DK. The tank is fine, it depends more on the player and the gear, etc. etc. The only encounter with an advantage that isn't easily overcome is add tanking on Anubarak. Something you clearly wouldn't know a damned thing about (see what I did there? Isn't it stupid to use progression in an argument?).

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez View Post
    Another dumb tank vs tank thread. All tanks work fine. They all have niches. They can all get the job done.
    Amen
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  12. #32
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    ^^

    Seriously, I'm seeing piles of anecdotal "A is better than B" opinions, and little to support them.

    Listen to zaubade. When it comes to tanks, if you have one of each, equally geared, the best player will be your strongest tank, it has nothing to do with class. If you have a weakly geared DK, there's no reason to take them over an appropriately geared anything, but the same can be said of any class.

    You bring a DK tank for the same reason you bring any other. Usually that's because the player is a good tank. Sometimes it may be because they offer you a missing raid buff.

    So since you're running 10s, what is your usual comp? What are your options for tanks? Maybe you have no reason to bring a DK tank. Maybe you do. It won't be decided on general class bias.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatwan View Post
    well first off you’re a hypocrite, since i also find your post as an uniformed opinion that has no merit on this thread

    then id like to point out your dk doesn’t have any 25m achievements or 10m hard modes other then a handful of uld junk ones. if you wanna claim you capable of them maybe you should do one. i digress, bring the player works for 10m trivial content is what i should have said...


    "Not a single tank class is superior to any other."
    overall is debatable, but for specific fights that’s absolutely false

    my point is dk tanks excel at 3 fights i can think of. i dare you to list more.

    therefore, why would you waste tanking rings, trinkets, necks and non-set pieces on them. let alone bring them to encounters they tax your healers on.


    ..im not sayin you wont kill it, but your wasting mana when you don’t have to. or, bring less heals more dps and don’t use a squishy tank etc.


    ill even appease you point: yes all tanks can tank anything. also, I’ve seen a shammy tank ulduar and a rogue tank BT, doesn’t mean its ideal. go ask healers who do real content which class they want tanking for them. then find me one that says they would have wanted a DK for Gormok the week heroic was unlocked.
    hmmm I am at the brink of ignoring this stupidity....... I will however point out that my uninformed opinion is backed up by tons of solid data and post on this and other tanking sites. If like any other min/max elitist you must need bring one class over an other or exclude any one class based on perceived superiority. Your strategist have failed. Your healers need help and or gear. Or possibly you have run into to many DK's that are fail. (Sad but true there are a few to many bad ones trying to be tanks at the moment.)
    I sir Am not one of the fail ones and know just how many fight I can and do better than a lot of other tanks. In my guild and The 10 man I run we have A bear, A war, A pali, and me a DK. True our 25 man is not even in ICC yet. (most the raid is on vacation) And as far as MY ten man, well we will be in ICC heroic soon as it is available. (you would be better to leave a persons achievements out of this as all that shows is the 25 I tank for is casual and the 10 is just started at the end of ToC)
    Part of the Dk perception problem or any Min/Max elitism is a lack of understanding of a relatively new class. some of the best players now on the DK's are still figuring out how there tanking differs from the other three tanks.


    Ohh and to be a bit childish for a brief period of time.... You are talking to at least four authors of DK knowledge. Two of which have done enough testing and numbers in the DK theorycrafting that I dare say they know more about A Dk than most of this forum together.
    Last edited by zaubade; 01-04-2010 at 10:32 AM. Reason: missed a word

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez View Post
    Another dumb tank vs tank thread. All tanks work fine. They all have niches. They can all get the job done.
    And amen to that.

    Why could I not be as elegant and as insightful with as few words

    /ovation (for Nez)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez View Post
    Another dumb tank vs tank thread. All tanks work fine. They all have niches. They can all get the job done.
    Thread closed.

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