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Thread: Who To Bring? DK? Why?

  1. #1
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    Who To Bring? DK? Why?

    Let me start by saying if this should be been posted elsewhere I'm sorry. And I intent this in no way to be a flame, I'm just to the point where my eyes are going to bleed and need outside input.


    Basically I'm deciding every week who to bring to our raids. Our tanks are usually myself(prot pally) and a DK OT(either blood or frost). Myself having tanked as a druid, pally, and DK just cannot grasp the point in bringing a DK over any of the other classes. Referring to boss fights anyways. Maybe its just me and the DKs I play with, but for the life of me what are they bringing that the other classes don't do better? Their threat seems superior granted, but if the other classes are high enough or your DPS is smart thats not an issue. Is there something I'm missing or our DKs are doing wrong? Again I don't mean any ill will to wards DKs, I'd love to get more use out of mine. ANY help would be amazing.

    And since I'm sure some one will ask, we only run 10 mans and are doing ICC atm.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
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    This is a good case of bring the player not the class. If the person or persons whom you want to bring prefer to tank as a DK then let them. If you are looking for optimal grouping in a 10 man... Well good luck, and bring whatever you can use in the most situations. I.E buffs, rolls with off spec etc. For ICC, at least once you need to bring a Bear tank... cause you have to witness a bear flying around with a rocket pack on his but.
    Ohh and you are a prot palie so if you have melee dps then a war or Dk would be nice as off tank main tank. They both have debuffs that help. The war brings there shouts and sunders which help with dps, the DK brings frost fever which helps reduce some damage to the tanks.
    Last edited by zaubade; 01-03-2010 at 08:51 PM. Reason: SP

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    Ohh and this is prolly the wrong forum. I might be wrong but it should be in the halp section

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaubade View Post
    Ohh and this is prolly the wrong forum. I might be wrong but it should be in the halp section
    Lol I wasn't sure since it didn't seem
    specifc enough to be something like gear/talents.

    Also can any advice be given as to DK survivability? It just seems like and our healers say our DKs wear paper bags to tank. A great example is Marrowgar(or back when Northrend Beasts) we'd end up needing all our combat rezzes(and sometimes soul stones) rezzing our DK because he would just die. Sadly he didn't log off in his tanking gear so I won't bother with a character link. He's tanked as both Blood and Frost. And one of our Backup tanks ran Frost. I mean we run three healers(shammy, Druid, and disc priest) so it's not a healer issue. I guess this is why I posted this under theroy. I want people to play the classes they enjoy and I'd like to be able to run my effectivly without my healers wanting to burn me.

  5. #5
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    Blood DK's have added health through talents, as well as amazing survivability through Death Strike self-healing (if used correctly) and Rune Tap. They also have an incredible cooldown, Vampiric Blood, which boosts their health and healing received. For raid buffs they have Abominations Might, which increases melee AP by 10%.

    Frost has superior physical damage mitigation, amazing AoE threat, raid melee haste buffs.

    It sounds like either your DK's are undergeared, or simply don't know how to play their class properly if they are dying so fast. Or perhaps they have inferior spec choices.

    Link their profile's once they log out in tank gear.

    Like any tank class, DK's are amazing MT's if the person driving has some skill.

  6. #6
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    i've had a similar question, although we also do 25m icc and 25m togc content, etc.


    ive yet to find an encounter where dks excel and its worth giving them loot priority on. granted i took a break for uld and general vezax was one. sarth and maly i suppose.


    i mean it comes down to mitigation: dks have several abilities on short cds to try and compensate for not having block (or druid fake block) and its not enough. blizz had a choice a few times now to either give them block or mess with cds, they chose the later.

    we tried using a dk tank with trophy t9 a few times... it was hated by the healers and comparing parses, they were taking several 100-thousands more dmg overall every fight.



    you can say player not class blah blah, but if you min max and play this game even slightly more then casual thats a bunch of s. it really only works when hybrids can step up and match pure dps. doesnt really fly when you tank takes double the dmg.

    to me it seems: if the fight doesnt have intense magic dmg going to the MT, youre better off telling your dk to dps and pug a non-dk in ilvl219 gear to tank.
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-04-2010 at 02:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabbitOne View Post
    Let me start by saying if this should be been posted elsewhere I'm sorry. And I intent this in no way to be a flame, I'm just to the point where my eyes are going to bleed and need outside input.


    Basically I'm deciding every week who to bring to our raids. Our tanks are usually myself(prot pally) and a DK OT(either blood or frost). Myself having tanked as a druid, pally, and DK just cannot grasp the point in bringing a DK over any of the other classes. Referring to boss fights anyways. Maybe its just me and the DKs I play with, but for the life of me what are they bringing that the other classes don't do better? Their threat seems superior granted, but if the other classes are high enough or your DPS is smart thats not an issue. Is there something I'm missing or our DKs are doing wrong? Again I don't mean any ill will to wards DKs, I'd love to get more use out of mine. ANY help would be amazing.

    And since I'm sure some one will ask, we only run 10 mans and are doing ICC atm.

    Thanks in advance.
    What are the paladins, warriors and druids bringing that the dk isn't?
    Remember that there's no class-exclusive buff and all tanking classes tank very well thank you.

    If you really want to know what buffs each bring, then check out!
    Blood brings raid-wide ap buff(shares with ehn shaman). Blood tanks can also soak damage done to the other tanks or even the whole raid through mark of blood.
    frost brings melee haste(shares with ehn shaman)
    unholy brings magical damage boosts(13%, replaces and is easier to sustain than the warlock and druid versions, and it's also aoe instead of single target / dps loss). Unholy can also soak large amounts of magic damage for your raid.

    Oh, and on the "tps is not an issue if it's enough or if the dps is smart" comment: All tank classes have more than enough tps generation that no class has to be smarter than "don't taunt. Don't unload everything in 3 seconds". Threat output is just not designed to be reached on your everyday tanking. Not since wrath launched.
    Last edited by Synapse; 01-04-2010 at 02:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatwan View Post

    you can say player not class blah blah, but if you min max and play this game even slightly more then casual thats a bunch of s. it really only works when hybrids can step up and match pure dps. doesnt really fly when you tank takes double the dmg.
    This is yet another uninformed opinion and has no place on these boards. Min/max is the BS as you would say. Every tanking class can tank all encounters the same.. period. they need the gear that is matched to the encounter and skill but that is all. Not a single tank class is superior to any other. I might sound a bit hostile... I could care less. The propagation of this kind of baseless bias on "the" finest tank forums ticks me off.

  9. #9
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    dks have swung both ways on the "zomg op" and "lol dk tank" sides of the "power" spectrum. Multiple times. They're doing pretty well right now.

  10. #10
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    Dks may indeed be the least survivable of the tanks currently, but they're more than adequete, and if your raid is having trouble keeping one in appropriate levels of gear alive, then I'd have a chat with your healing team about their performance before I'd talk to the Dk tank about his class choice.

  11. #11
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    Breakdown for Simplicity.

    Blood DK: has a passive talent that reduces dmg taken under 35%hp. Mitigates large portion of incomeing dmg with self healing. Boosts hp and healing every 60sec. Halves magic dmg incomeing on a percentage = Parry. Includes a Cleave attack into basic rotation for extra threat on 2nd target. Raid buffs AP by 10% as part of normal rotation.

    Frost DK: Reduces frequency and Size of incomeing dmg by a small amount. Has a CD that effectively caps Armor every 60sec. Increases duration of basic Cooldown to 21sec of 40% mitigation every 2min. Can Snare diseased targets by 50%. Has easiest to use Interupts. Has BEST AOE Threat attack in the Game useable every 15sec. Can lock up an unlimited number of Targets for 10sec every 60sec with Hungering Cold. Buffs the raid with 20% haste. Debuffs tanked targets attack speed by 6%.

    Unholy DK: Brings a pet for free dmg. Brings a 20% dmg redux cooldown every 60sec that scales very well with avoidance stats. Brings an AOE dmg redux cooldown for the raid. Brings the highest dmg of all DK tank specs with multiple diseases and powerful strikes. Buffs the raids Spelldmg by 13% that is easier to upkeep and can be turned aoe for the only AOE 13% spell dmg buff.
    -------

    Really if your DK tanks are takeing 2x the damage over your other tanks then they are doing something wrong. Either they are not properly prioritizeing thier cooldown useage or they have a problem with gear and or spec. Without seeing what they are doing and what spec they are running its hard to nail it down at remove but there is NO reason your DK should be takeing that kind of extra damage with all things being equal.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrekgar View Post
    Breakdown for Simplicity.

    Blood DK: has a passive talent that reduces dmg taken under 35%hp. Mitigates large portion of incomeing dmg with self healing. Boosts hp and healing every 60sec. Halves magic dmg incomeing on a percentage = Parry. Includes a Cleave attack into basic rotation for extra threat on 2nd target. Raid buffs AP by 10% as part of normal rotation.

    Frost DK: Reduces frequency and Size of incomeing dmg by a small amount. Has a CD that effectively caps Armor every 60sec. Increases duration of basic Cooldown to 21sec of 40% mitigation every 2min. Can Snare diseased targets by 50%. Has easiest to use Interupts. Has BEST AOE Threat attack in the Game useable every 15sec. Can lock up an unlimited number of Targets for 10sec every 60sec with Hungering Cold. Buffs the raid with 20% haste. Debuffs tanked targets attack speed by 6%.

    Unholy DK: Brings a pet for free dmg. Brings a 20% dmg redux cooldown every 60sec that scales very well with avoidance stats. Brings an AOE dmg redux cooldown for the raid. Brings the highest dmg of all DK tank specs with multiple diseases and powerful strikes. Buffs the raids Spelldmg by 13% that is easier to upkeep and can be turned aoe for the only AOE 13% spell dmg buff.
    -------

    Really if your DK tanks are takeing 2x the damage over your other tanks then they are doing something wrong. Either they are not properly prioritizeing thier cooldown useage or they have a problem with gear and or spec. Without seeing what they are doing and what spec they are running its hard to nail it down at remove but there is NO reason your DK should be takeing that kind of extra damage with all things being equal.
    Vrek, you may want to know unholy does more aoe threat...but has a longer ramp-up time. Frost has burst threat, not maximum threat output there.
    Oh, and blood dks do take more damage. They are designed around being able to survive that much spike damage and soak part of it through high self-healing, powerful healing bonuses and having a healing ability as part of it's rotation.
    The interval between damage taking and damage healing is so short that often you don't even notice it.

  13. #13
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    Oh i know Unholy does some rather impressive AOE dmg but only over sustained durations. Makes me really miss the old Unholy Blight.

    Howing Blast does around 5k+ when it crits to all targets in its range. Thats every 15sec and you can guarantee crits with Killing machine procs and deathchill(every2min). Rime also buffs it up with free Howling blast shots.

    Unholy relies on Frost Fever and Blood Boil to Tick up. They do around 400ish dmg per tick every 3sec. The third disease does NO dmg but buffs the other diseases and with ebon plaguebringer does the 13% spelldmg buff. Wandering Plague relies on base Crit% to proc a free instant Tick of DMG to all targets within 8yards of the target that Procced it.

    Given these two situations Unholy will pull away from Howling blast over sucessive Disease rotations. Wandering plague is the only thing that can push Unholy to be leaps and bounds better than Frosts howling blast. However it requires tight grouping of the mobs and luck. Howling blast is reliable in that other than getting killing machine or Rime procs it is very sustainable and hard to mess up.

    This also doesnt take into account Death and Decay as for an AOE situation that will be used Irregardless.

    I Much prefer SNAP aggro with Decent Sustained AOE than Built up Aoe aggro.
    -----
    The amount of damage blood takes over the other specs isnt such a big deal. They are the best at dealing with it between the 3specs. Theoretically Any DK could use Death Strike in thier rotation and recieve the 10% hp heal but most of the time you would be gimping yourself somewhere to use it. The Real kicker that makes blood take more dmg is the RNG nature of spell deflection and the lack of a CD that Reduces Damage intake save WOTN. Beyond those 2 things blood has Nothing that reduces damage intake. just ways to deal with dmg once its arrived.

    Frost and Unholy both have not only CD's that reduce damage but passive talents that do so as well.
    Last edited by Vrekgar; 01-04-2010 at 03:31 AM.

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    You should take it into account. Unholy's D&D wil have both a better coefficient and the bonus from wandering plague.
    But that's still just us agreeing that frost has better burst and lower total output and throwing nitpicks at each other

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    dks have swung both ways
    ...
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaubade View Post
    This is yet another uninformed opinion and has no place on these boards. Min/max is the BS as you would say. Every tanking class can tank all encounters the same.. period. they need the gear that is matched to the encounter and skill but that is all. Not a single tank class is superior to any other. I might sound a bit hostile... I could care less. The propagation of this kind of baseless bias on "the" finest tank forums ticks me off.
    well first off you’re a hypocrite, since i also find your post as an uniformed opinion that has no merit on this thread

    then id like to point out your dk doesn’t have any 25m achievements or 10m hard modes other then a handful of uld junk ones. if you wanna claim you capable of them maybe you should do one. i digress, bring the player works for 10m trivial content is what i should have said...


    "Not a single tank class is superior to any other."
    overall is debatable, but for specific fights that’s absolutely false

    my point is dk tanks excel at 3 fights i can think of. i dare you to list more.

    therefore, why would you waste tanking rings, trinkets, necks and non-set pieces on them. let alone bring them to encounters they tax your healers on.


    ..im not sayin you wont kill it, but your wasting mana when you don’t have to. or, bring less heals more dps and don’t use a squishy tank etc.


    ill even appease you point: yes all tanks can tank anything. also, I’ve seen a shammy tank ulduar and a rogue tank BT, doesn’t mean its ideal. go ask healers who do real content which class they want tanking for them. then find me one that says they would have wanted a DK for Gormok the week heroic was unlocked.
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-04-2010 at 04:11 AM.

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    Nitpick! lol.

    Ebonplagebringer buffs DnD not Wandering. But then again Frost has black ice for a 20% buff to DnD damage.

    Assumeing best case Math they both buff DnD with the same %.

    Black ice = 20% shadow and Frost.

    Desolation = 5%
    Bone armor = 2%
    Ebon Plague = 13%

    The only thing, That i know off, to make Unholy's AOE potential higher is Increased Disease damage and Wandering plague Procs.

    I suck at math so if anyone is willing to do a theorycraft as to at what point does Unholy outstrip Frost for AOE Threat.
    ----
    As you say nitpicking this kinda screws with the spirit of the thread anyway.

    To poke holes at myself no Unholy spec idd make for tanking would take the ghoul anyway. And Antimagic Zone is a Joke of a cooldown and even iff you take it you gotta rely on the raid knowing what your doing and doing the proper thing at the right time.

    As has been said many times before overall All tanks are relatively equal. The big things to look out for are how well the tank is geared, how well they have refined thier spec, and how well they play with the raid. You cant expect every peg to fit in a square hole. Sometimes you gotta change the Hole. (IE. Sometimes the healers or DPS has to adjust to how your tank does things instead of the tank adjusting to them)

  18. #18
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    Recently we've started split raiding.
    Instead of one raid with mains we decided we want to gear our mains faster and now make double raids with half mains/half alts on icc 25 and toc 25 normal raids. So lately my co-tank has often been a different tank in different stages of gearing.
    I haven't had any problems tanking alongside death-knights. Some DKs just don't play well. Maybe they have become lazy or just also played bad when they were a bit overpowered and I can imagine that previously a bad played DK would still be like a good played other tank and now the same DKs who were played badly suddenly drop like flies because they're equalized a bit more.
    I have seen quite the number of strong DK tanks and dps-ers so I don't see any problem.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatwan View Post
    well first off youíre a hypocrite, since yours is also an uniformed opinion (that you failed to back up).

    then id like to point out your dk doesnít have any 25m achievements or 10m hard modes other then a handful of uld junk ones. if you wanna claim you capable of them maybe you should do one.


    "Not a single tank class is superior to any other."
    overall is debatable, but for specific fights thatís absolutely false

    my point is dk tanks excel at 3 fights i can think of. i dare you to list more.

    therefore, why would you waste tanking rings, trinkets, necks and non-set pieces on them. let alone bring them to encounters they tax your healers on.


    ..im not sayin you wont kill it, but your wasting mana when you donít have to. or, bring less heals more dps and donít use a squishy tank etc.


    ill even appease you point: yes all tanks can tank anything. also, Iíve seen a shammy tank ulduar and a rogue tank BT, doesnít mean its ideal. go ask healers who do real content which class they want tanking for them. then find me one that says they would have wanted a DK for Gormok the week heroic was unlocked.
    Why so serious?

    DK's dont have to EXCELL at fights. What fights do a Warrior Excell at? Same as the paladins i bet. What fights do BEARS excell at? It is all relative to your definition of Excellence.

    Why WASTE gear on a tank who doesnt excell at a fight? Jimminy crickets son do you have any idea how much of an asshole that makes you sound like? You give TANK gear to a TANK so they can EXCELL at thier job just a little bit better than they did before. Perhaps why your DK tanks suck so much is because your Gimping them from gear that your other tanks DONT NEED.

    I can tell right now your a 5% elietist who would drop someone from a raid just to get a fractionaly tiny change in performance. Ill simplify your decisions right now for you.

    Paladins. Take them. They are the Current Cream of the crop for tanking. Decked out in Min Maxed armor and weapons they have the highest performance of all the tanks. Take them and heaven help any DK who even dreams of tanking for you because your never going to give them a shot. You prejudged them and found them wanting.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatwan View Post
    well first off you’re a hypocrite, since i also find your post as an uniformed opinion that has no merit on this thread

    then id like to point out your dk doesn’t have any 25m achievements or 10m hard modes other then a handful of uld junk ones. if you wanna claim you capable of them maybe you should do one. i digress, bring the player works for 10m trivial content is what i should have said...


    "Not a single tank class is superior to any other."
    overall is debatable, but for specific fights that’s absolutely false

    my point is dk tanks excel at 3 fights i can think of. i dare you to list more.

    therefore, why would you waste tanking rings, trinkets, necks and non-set pieces on them. let alone bring them to encounters they tax your healers on.


    ..im not sayin you wont kill it, but your wasting mana when you don’t have to. or, bring less heals more dps and don’t use a squishy tank etc.


    ill even appease you point: yes all tanks can tank anything. also, I’ve seen a shammy tank ulduar and a rogue tank BT, doesn’t mean its ideal. go ask healers who do real content which class they want tanking for them. then find me one that says they would have wanted a DK for Gormok the week heroic was unlocked.
    I remember a few months ago my realm was full of DK haters but I thought this thing was over by now... I know I am far from your level in both experience and gear but where did you get the idea that DKs are worse than the other tanking classes in general? I mean your whole argument for not thinking they should exist in raids is that they arent better at enough fights. Its not that long ago that they were considered so OP, and so many guild replacing other classes with them, that blizzard had to seriously nerf the class. They might not be the best tanking class in general today, and the general oppinion seems to be that Palys are, but who says thats the way its going to be in the future?

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