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Thread: Why Tanks aren't in the LFG queue

  1. #1
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    Why Tanks aren't in the LFG queue

    **Skip to the end to see the Discussion Point**
    A nice, snarky list of reasons why you don't see enough tanks in the LFG queue.

    Reason #1: DPS Pullers :
    [ Cue Scenario 1 ]
    Tank: Hey, you guys ready for me to pull?
    DPSer 2 begins to cast Arcane Bolt

    [ Cue Scenario 2 ]
    Tank: Guys, I need a second to fix something.
    DPSer 3 sends his pet in to pull the next group

    If we go back to the very beginning, the role of the tank is to hold aggro and stay alive. If someone else pulls the mob, the tank doesn't have aggro. Rare is the situation in which the tank asks someone to pull, if the tank doesn't ask you to pull then he probably doesn't want you to. If the tank isn't pulling, it's probably, just maybe, for a good reason.

    Reason #2: DPS Tanks :
    [ Cue Scenario 1 ]
    Tank: Okay, so it seems like people are taking aggro. I'm going to mark my target with skull, please attack skull.
    Tank pulls and aggros skull target, does some simple AoE to avoid healer aggro on second target. 5 seconds in, DPSer 2 gets aggro on second target. Tank switches target, taunts and saves DPSer 2 (ideally, but sometimes they die).
    DPSer 2: Wow, can't hold aggro? Fail tank.

    [ Cue Scenario 2 ]
    Tank: Alright, your (DPSer 3) gear is a lot better than mine is. It's going to be tough to keep aggro, if you're getting aggro can you switch targets or stop for a few moments so that you don't pull?
    DPSer 3: k
    Tank pulls and aggros targets. 4 seconds in, DPSer 3 has aggro. Tank taunts back. 8 seconds in, DPSer 3 has aggro, taunt on cooldown. Mob 1 kills DPSer 3.
    DPSer 3: Man, you suck. You can't hold aggro at all. You're fail, are you a noob?

    Reason #3: No one listens to the tank :
    Tank: Alright, I'm going to LoS pull this. Everyone knows what an LoS pull is?
    DPSer 2: Of course, noob.
    Healer: Just pull please.
    Tank aggros one of the mobs, runs behind a wall or some object. Takes a bit of damage before getting there. Healer stands in the open and heals tank, DPSers 2 and 3 start opening up on the mobs before they get to the tank. Chaos ensues. Party wipes.
    DPSer 1: You guys suck.
    DPSer 2: What was the tank doing? Running away? Fail.
    Healer: Can't even keep aggro off of the healer. Fail tank, you suck.
    Healer leaves the group.

    Reason #4: Everyone else's way is the "Right" way :
    [ Cue Scenario 1 ]
    Tank begins pulling, the path splits to the left and the right, both lead the same direction. Tank heads to the left.
    DPSer 1: What are you doing?
    Tank: What? I'm pulling.
    DPSer 1: You're going the wrong way.
    DPSer 2: lol, fail.
    Tank: How is this the wrong way?
    DPSer 1: Because you're supposed to go the other way.
    Tank: Umm, they both go to the same place.
    DPSer 1: Fail tank.

    [ Cue Scenario 2 ]
    Tank begins pulling, the path splits to the left and the right, both lead the same direction. Tank heads left. Everyone but DPSers 1 and 2 follow tank, DPSers 1 and 2 head right. Get aggro on a group and die.
    DPSer 1: wtf?
    DPSer 2: Fail.
    Tank: Where did you guys go?
    DPSer 1: Where we were supposed to, where were you?
    Tank: ... I'm where I'm supposed to be.
    DPSer 1: No you're not, that's the wrong way fail tank.
    DPSer 2: lol, fail.

    [ Cue Scenario 3 ]
    Tank comes up to a group that can be avoided by hugging the wall. In the spirit of efficiency he hugs the wall and avoids the group, telling the others that they can avoid the group by hugging the wall.
    DPSer 1: What? No, you pull this group. God, you're so fail.
    DPSer 2: Where are you going?
    Scenario 3.5
    DPSer 1 runs right into above mentioned group. Dies.

    DPSer 1: !@#$, noob!
    DPSer 2: Fail
    DPSer 1: Why didn't you pull that group?
    Tank: Because we could avoid it, I said that. No one said anything.
    DPSer 1: r u srs?
    Tank: Umm... yes?
    DPSer 1: You suck.
    DPSer 2: Fail.

    [ Cue Scenario 4 ]
    Tank comes up to a group that can be avoided by hugging the wall. Tank decides to pull the group.
    Tank: I'm going to pull this group guys, every time I try to avoid it someone ends up pulling and dies.
    DPSer 3: OMG, really?
    Tank: What?
    DPSer 3: We don't have to pull that group.
    Tank: *sigh* I know.
    DPSer 3: So why are you pulling it?
    Healer:Yeah. Why?
    Tank: I already told you why.
    DPSer 1: Your a noob. (Yes, the your is intentional. That's what they would say)
    DPSer 2: lol, fail.

    I could go on and on with the scenarios that I've encountered. I just recently started leveling two healers, one of them is now level 71 and I've done quite a few instances to get there. I've definitely had some interesting observations from that perspective.

    Foremost is that there are lots of fail tanks out there. Tanks that don't know how to pull, keep aggro, LoS. Tanks who stand there for no reason, who don't communicate, who wipe groups. However, this is not all Tanks, and because of the importance of the role of the Tank it's important to always lead in with the benefit of the doubt, not doing so often leads to chaos and wiping.

    I've noticed that despite the common "Healer and Tanks always get the blame" that I get blamed for things I can't control more often as a Tank than I do as a healer. Most people, if they die for their own stupid reasons, tend to know it's their fault, and it seems less common that you get the guy who blames you for not healing him when he jumped off of the cliff. However, people take damage without having aggro and blame the tank for not having aggro. People often misunderstand a tank's job and blame them for not doing it.

    People more often say "Good healing" than "Good tanking". The only time I get complimented on my tanking is when I chain pull an instance and do it fast. Sometimes, rarely, people are appreciative if it all goes well and say "Good tanking". But when shit hits the fan and you save the day, people are more apt to say "Good healing", often times in that case the healer has done more. But at the end of a run when nothing has gone wrong and the tank has pulled well, kept aggro and run the group efficiently, I never hear "good tanking".

    I say this with a lot of seeming bitterness. In truth I laugh and cry about it. I think it's amusing how typical groups are these days, and that you can boil them down to some stereotypical situations, types or labels. But it's sad that it's so hard to find a good group because there's so many of these people out there. As I level my Paladin, I realize I can get groups faster if I choose Tank or Heals, but I often ignore the Tank gear that I've worked hard to get, and the Tank spec that I paid 1000g to get because after Tanking once or twice I get fed up with all of this stuff. With DPS pulling and not listening, with people complaining and whining. I'd rather just heal at that point, it's always been much less of a target thus far.

    I understand that the Tank is not the only person in the group, but they're often the defacto decision maker because it would be too much to ask everyone what they want to do on every pull, or what they want to do on every situation that occurs. I try my best to let the group decide when I can, and even then I get people complaining that I'm wasting time and then start pulling. There's always something.

    End:
    This thread is for you to post your frustrating or amusing situations in which you, as a tank, have run across. Things that people say or blame you for. Expectations that people have that are unreasonable, etc... scenarios pretty much. I only ask that you be civil about it and do not name names. I'll give one of my own to get us started:

    I was tanking Heroic Old Kingdom yesterday and the group wanted to do ALL of the bosses (rather than do the two and skip the rest). After the vampire boss we descend to the lower level. Because of doing all of the bosses, I figured I would go left instead of the usual right, clear out the trash there so that we could do Jedoga and Amnitar (butchered spellings I'm sure) and then head back up the stairs and hop down and do the two trash pulls to the last boss.

    As I said I was doing that I got all sorts of complaints about how that way was harder and how we only had to do one pull (I don't know what crack they were smoking). It turns out that the main person complaining had never done Amnitar before and didn't even know about that path, hence their complaint. I've done Heroic Old Kingdom far too many times. As I hadn't failed at tanking to that point and as I had a good set of gear, I would hope that people could trust that I knew what I was doing, but they couldn't. It's something I run into frequently, people not getting their own way and complaining about it. We can only do things one way, there may be 5 different ways we can do it, but we have to choose one. As the Tank, since I'm pulling, I generally get to choose that way. Please deal with it.

  2. #2
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    Thus far, I've had pretty gotten decently geared and intelligent groups, not really encountered that many problems (only one in fact, which I'll elaborate on shortly). In all honesty, before LFD came around, I'd never be caught dead doing a PuG or anything that doesn't involve guild mates or their direct friends.

    I've only had one issue in a PuG where I was vote kicked by the three DPS for pulling too fast (I had around 45k buffed HP and the healer had around 28k mana, never dropping below 85%). The healer did not complain once, and furthermore the DPS did not communicate their problem with my pulling too fast (even though I held aggro almost perfectly) and just decided to kick me out half way through the Heroic without saying a word until the moment I was about to be kicked.

    Their words? "Lol ur a jerk dude, slow down and stop beign an elitizt" or some such stupidity.

    I was so blown away by this I decided to not tank another PuG for nearly three days.

  3. #3
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    If I took it to an objective point, more than 50% of my groups are probably fine. I've simply had enough groups that aren't fine to really stick out in my mind, especially at lower levels.

  4. #4
    This is why I'm so happy that I was geared before the LFG hit. I purposely just shut out the group, chain pull, and top the DPS (most of the time.) And then they all shut up and don't say anything while I carry them.

    I hop on my 60 DK to try and Tank the LFG for levels..I'm doomed to flaming until I /exit.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    [ Cue Scenario 1 ]
    Tank begins pulling, the path splits to the left and the right, both lead the same direction. Tank heads to the left.
    DPSer 1: What are you doing?
    Tank: What? I'm pulling.
    DPSer 1: You're going the wrong way.
    DPSer 2: lol, fail.
    Tank: How is this the wrong way?
    DPSer 1: Because you're supposed to go the other way.
    Tank: Umm, they both go to the same place.
    DPSer 1: Fail tank.

    Heh I've had this happen a number of times in the first room of HoL. Everyone seems to go right, when going to the left doesn't skip the boss, has less trash pulls, and doesn't have to deal with the boss pathing through the area you're fighting trash as much. The only reason to go right is that the ledge you can jump down from after Loken to run out takes you down to the right path, but no one runs out of instances anymore so it's a moot point.

  6. #6
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    Tank just did that for the first time the other day when I was on my DPS (a Warlock). I like it and will be doing it on my tank from now on, I'm quite certain I will run into that scenario more than once.

  7. #7
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    Today before we did our first pull I explained to the group I needed to "AFk for a moment before we pull need to grab something for my hubby" Pretty much for the rest of the run the dude was trying to figure out how exactly a chik, whose husband didn't play wow.. and didn't fail at tanking... tanked in his group.

    I was just entertained cause I think I totally had blown his mind.


    Overall I would say with Random I have had very few issues. I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.

    But being a good tank you can generally control the group pretty well. Problem is most people do not really care about the rest of the group and that can lead to horrible group dynamics.


  8. #8
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    On an off topic note, Ture's comment about Shaman reminded me of a time a Resto Shammy told my Warlock to stop life tapping. When I looked at my mana gained, I almost had more mana gained from replenishment than life tapping, I hardly life tap at all.

  9. #9
    Role paladin, DI your healer, let your dps die .
    The Ashbringer...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    Overall I would say with Random I have had very few issues. I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.
    I think I had that same shaman. Annoyed the crap out of me.
    I'm an alt-oholic. I'm ok with that.
    http://warcraftid.com/card/170/n/73a...f/sholozar.jpg

  11. #11
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    We had 2 awesom-tastic (sarcasm) groups yesterday. One was VH. Easy, yeah. I know. But the warrior was charging and WW damn near before we got to the mobs. I happened to be in vent at the time, with the healer (a guildie) who said....I'm not healing him till he drops aggro, and don't you taunt, either.

    Same healer-friend, but on his shaman, told me that the dps in AN was pulling the group ahead, and not to taunt again, since I'd saved his ass like 4 times. He died, was *WTF, why didn't the tank taunt*

    My friend said. *WTF, why did the dps pull?* We go thru fairly quickly, and when my friend says *moar mobs* I go grab more. If others are too lazy to read guild tags, or wanna play tank, we'll let them.

    OH, the epic fail. DK DPS pulls out AoD on every boss in Nexus. Over vent, I said...if he pulls out AoD....stay out of the dragon's way. I'm not doing anything. He did, he died, then I grabbed the dragon. THAT dps realized the error of his ways, and apologized.
    I'm an alt-oholic. I'm ok with that.
    http://warcraftid.com/card/170/n/73a...f/sholozar.jpg

  12. #12
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    Have only run into such groups a handful of times since hitting 80. Most notable was a Forge of Souls run with a rogue constantly attackign the lone targets. I understand his logic, the longer mobs live the higher his DPS gets, so he wants mobs noone else is killing...but he kept constantly going for caster mobs that I had attacked once and was leaving alone. Then he kept complaining about aggro. Every pull.

    Running into such people, I tend to delay my taunts a good 10-15 secs. Some learn after 2-3 deaths, the rest leave group after 5-6 deaths.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.
    Must have run into the same guy. He decided I was going too slow and wanted to help me pull mobs. Only problem is that if I pull I can forget mobs at 50% health and look for next group. If I have to fight back aggro on all mobs, I have to tank them till dead and everything goes slower.

  14. #14
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    Kudoz on the creativity, but the reason there are fewer tanks to dps and healers in lfg is that there are fewer tanks out there, period.

    Until the LFG tool, people had little need to find and replace tanks every 10-15 mins (granted they had a much smaller population size to drawn on, but i'll assume for a moment the overall and tank populations grew equvalently, folly as it may be).

    The age-old issue will always be- progressed content requires (for the most part) 2 tanks in 25 players. Sometimes you need a third, but on the whole you get away with a feral cat who swaps bear, or a dk in fp. So there is problem #1: the more gear a tank gets, the higher level of content he seeks, the smaller the demand for his/her services are. Essentially (and i've seen this happen to friends), players out-grow their tanking alt. They get frustrated that after collecting all that badge gear and pugging content that no guilds out there will take them on.

    Another problem is the level of involvement. It's a running joke (and sadly, a realistic one) that tanks frequently out-damage their dps in random teams. To put it frankly, it's because they have to do the work. Aside from purposefully pulling aggro, what the dps does has little effect on the outcome of the heroic. Even the healer becomes a semi-marginalized factor when you have block-sets, passive healing, and any other manner of things that prevent the tank from taking hardly a scratch. I've geared 2 toons out in badge gear since 3.3 went live: A prot warrior alt, and a hunter alt. Even though I had to wait significantly longer for groups on my hunter, the grind for badges was far less. I always had the option of just casting volley for trash, auto-following for a moment while I handled a phone call, etc. As my warrior, it was intensely fun, but it was 10x more stressful. In a lot of cases, carrying the team burns tanks out of LFD.

    So the population of tanks relative to everyone else is (probably) less than 1 in 5 (which is what would be ideal for LFD). Tanks at all gear levels are required to expend more effort for the same results in a random team. And finally, because guildies and wealthy pugs on my server (and other's im sure) are starting to pay tanks to chain heroics with them.

    TLDR: Sell yourself to dps with more money than brains, make the pain worth your while.

  15. #15
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    I agree Prolet, that your points are indeed valid and a reason behind the issue. I don't want this thread to turn into an argument, but I will say, as a tank, that the reasons I put forth, while humorous, are indeed reasons tanks are not in queues. My Paladin is the best example, because I'll queue for give minutes as a healer and get nothing. I'll queue as a tank and get a group. The group then tells me they've been waiting 5-10 minutes for a tank. That means that I was really one of the only tanks in the queue in the entire battlegroup at that time. And I often choose to NOT queue as a tank for the reasons above. It's just more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

    Yeah, I want fast queues. But I don't want to be stressed in a game that I play. People need to treat tanks better or they'll never see this situation get better. It won't fix everything for the reasons you made, but it will encourage more tanks to queue.

  16. #16
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    While all of this is true, you know the number one reason I've seen?

    DPS know they have a 10-15 minute wait for a group. They also know tanks have about a 1 second wait. So it's not uncommon to hear a DPS looking for a tank partner for heroics. If they have a partner, they're in and out so much faster.

  17. #17
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    Right, though that's a direct effect of the lack of tanks.

    Edit: more story sharing!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    Right, though that's a direct effect of the lack of tanks.

    Edit: more story sharing!
    But I wonder if it's not a case of the chicken and the egg. Almost all the tanks I know run heroics with a partner or a guild team.

  19. #19
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    I've been lucky enough not to ever be called a fail tank before, and I honestly don't think that's why there aren't enough tanks in LFG.

    First of all, of all the roles available to a guild, guilds need the smallest number of tanks. Usually 3-4 tanks total.

    Secondly, because there are so few tanks, and because we are needed for everything, we tend to get geared up quickly and we're swimming in emblems.

    Because there are so many more dps needed in raids than tanks, fewer than 1 in 5 players is a tank.

    Because tanks tend to gear up so quickly, we don't need any more emblems or gear from heroics, outside of the one heroic random. Once we've been doing ICC for a while, we won't need that either. Because there is nothing I need out of the heroics, and because they get to be repetitive (after all, I'm tanking all the time), I tend to avoid tanking heroics after my random daily is done. Instead, I queue as my lesser geared dps or healing characters, further increasing the discrepancy between dps/healers and tanks.

    Heroics are easy. DPS doing stupid stuff doesn't make me want to ragequit. It doesn't make me want to avoid heroics. Hell, I usually get really good players in my heroics, but even if I don't, I so vastly outgear the place that it really doesn't much matter, and I know we'll make it through safely. For me, it's just a question of do I want to do a heroic with 0 return on my time invested, or do I want to work on one of my other characters? I think that's the bigger issue.

  20. #20
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    You guys fail at story sharing!

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