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Thread: Problem with Paladin like tank

  1. #1
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    Problem with Paladin like tank

    Well today i tried to be MT ony10 man and she 2-3 shot me ... where is problem ? I know to put more stamina but if i change trinket my def capped will change and will be 533. I tried and ICC and Totc at ICC they hit mi harder but sometimes they don't hit me ( its like normal instance or some hcs) anyway buffed have 40k with flask/food. What need to change, have trinket from totc10 too


    My armory : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...tulon&n=clades

  2. #2
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    40k hp as a paladin?

    On Onyxia?

    Healer fail.

  3. #3
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    40k should be enough for Onyxia10.
    Did she kill you right at the start? Might have been the healers weren't ready or prepared to heal you on the run.
    Did you get heals in these 2-3 hits? If not, did you try one of your oh crap buttons like LoH or the 50% reduced damage one? Did you have Sacred Shield up from either yourself or another paladin?

    Short answer is that you are slightly worse geared than most tanks at this level, but not critically low. Either the healers messed up or you didn't use all the tools at your disposal. Someone dropped the ball here.
    Last edited by the27thvoice; 01-02-2010 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Spelling

  4. #4
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    Well it seems to me like you are def capped so its no crits but she hits around 12-15k on plate so that she gets u down in 3 swings isnt very hard to se. The breath is around 20 k unresisted, its a bit of damage coming in. You are a bit low on HP. But with the decent healers you can pull it off.

    Your specc looks fine but i would pick vindiction 2 points and drop 2 in conviction. Maybe get the trinket from toc 5 man normal to replace the 111 stam one, its easy to farm since its a normal instance.
    Thats all i got but i bet some other ppl got even better advice for you.

  5. #5
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    Best way to pull Ony is to bubble wall off the bat to make heal on the move much more easier on your healers.

    Your gear could use some TLC as well the 245 libram will do you wonders as well as upping your gems to epic from rare. You can successfully tank it just make sure the person healing you isnt there for a walk in the park since you dont outgear the instance.

    Also get glyph of Divine Plea it will reduce 3% incoming damage. Its one of the best glyphs we can get.

  6. #6
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    Yep, replacing Glyph of Holy Wrath with Glyph of Divine Plea will reduce your damage by 3% at all times on bosses and most time on trash...it is your easiest, cheapest and best gear improvement.

  7. #7
    I did this with pug healers a few months/weeks ago on 25man, the boss hits fairly hard, but it was manageable with 1 crazily good Priest keeping me up, so I'd deffo blame the healer if you're just getting 3 shotted in 10man with your HP.
    The Ashbringer...

  8. #8
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    HP isnt everything if you dont have the armor and avoidence to back it up you are a mana sponge. If HP was the end all be all raids would stack druids. If you blame the healer by default you wont win many friends.

  9. #9
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    Not to be nickpicky. It might help a bit if we knew WHEN you died. Did you died while you pulled? Even during the pull it is not entirely the healers fault. Can't run to far ahead of the group and Onyxia does have a knockback as well.

    Was it during the transition from Phase 2 to Phase 3? Cause even with superb healers. A badly timed phase 3+fear can be detrimental.

  10. #10
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    Thanks , but soon will be MT at my guild , what gear/stats need to aim? For BoSS HP is all ... you can't wear block gear or its my bad?

  11. #11
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    Im not quite sure what you are trying to say but HP is a big part of it but if you have 80K HP and 30% avoidance in lets say ToGC 25 i would say you are gearing lopsided. HP is a great stat because it is consistent but you should also look at your avoidance and see if that is at the proper lvl. Most attacks from bosses are physical and it is your job to mitigate that damage to a certain extenant as well as be able to take the blow. HP isnt the true benchmark of what you can tank just like attack power isnt the bench mark of what a dps can dps its your whole stat sheet that you have to consider.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfists View Post
    Im not quite sure what you are trying to say but HP is a big part of it but if you have 80K HP and 30% avoidance in lets say ToGC 25 i would say you are gearing lopsided.
    Nobody has that, nobody had that, and I think it's quite likely nobody will ever have it. Don't make unrealistic comparisons.
    HP is a great stat because it is consistent but you should also look at your avoidance and see if that is at the proper lvl.
    Actually, your avoidance grows naturally with your hp - the vast majority is itemized like that.
    Most attacks from bosses are physical and it is your job to mitigate that damage to a certain extenant as well as be able to take the blow.
    Of course, most of those physical attacks aren't avoidable. (And avoidance isn't mitigation.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  13. #13
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    My point martie is he has 32K HP unbuffed not 40K (maybe this is raid buffed). He still needs defender's code to stay defense capped. Also his avoidence is 22% dodge and 20% parry. If you would take the time and look at OP and not my post you would understand my unrealistic scenario was to drive at the fact that HP isnt the benchmark its part of the equation.

    Yes your stats do grow with your HP and you shouldnt actively gem straight avoidence but at the same time you can inflate your HP while undercutting your avoidence. Case in point you can gem stam/parry which wont help you much or get multiple items with shield block (not very good in a raid situation).

    Another point you missed what i was saying. Tanks job is to reduce as much of the damage intake as possible which is to mitigate although Lich King is all about avoidence our primary job (this overarchs all expansions) is to maximize our ability to take as much damage off the board. I used the word mitigate there not to stress shield blocking but damage reduction.

    To give you a better picture class i think you are ready for uld/toc icc is a bit out of your reach. ony will pose you some trouble since that is a progression fight for you.
    Last edited by Hammerfists; 01-03-2010 at 04:11 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfists View Post
    Yes your stats do grow with your HP and you shouldnt actively gem straight avoidence but at the same time you can inflate your HP while undercutting your avoidence.
    I know people claim this. I haven't seen a realistic scenario where it will be the case. From the gear I've seen, a relatively small percentage of your avoidance or stamina comes from enchanting and gems, most of it comes from what's on the gear, and those aren't changable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  15. #15
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    99% of encounters will favor a tank gemmed entirely for stamina, and wearing stam trinkets in both slots. Lower end gear will have less, but you're not going to help that by gemming it for avoidance, because that gear is also low on HP.

    To the OP, you're 10 skill over def cap, and using repelling charge for a large chunk of your defense, but you havn't even bothered to enchant your cloak or chest, that's another 35 defense rating right there. IF you can manage enough defense rating from swapping a few stam gems for def+stam (or straight defense) and those two enchants, so you can wear a stam trinket it's a net gain.

    The first thing I'd do is replace that junk helm.
    Last edited by Akeber; 01-03-2010 at 09:51 AM.

  16. #16
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    im sorry but it must be healers fault,i only wiped 2/5 of times i went onyxia 10 and one was ones fault because he was knocked out by the tail and went to nests .
    i have this char The World of Warcraft Armory
    as u can see i dont have much defense,just the necessary and my avoidance isnt really good and i dont get those hits
    try to epic gem and change some,use sacred shield and try to keep holy shield always up,maybe you are pulling onyxia and putting her to the wall way to fast and healers cant back you up immediately
    onyxia 10 is a pretty easy raid you shouldnt have those type of problems imo

  17. #17
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    His Gear should be good enough for Onyxia 10. I've tanked Ony25 as warrior with worse gear than his, although by accident (MT Died)
    He had either real bad luck or someone made an mistake. Probably healers or maybe even himself, but thats impossible to tell wothout further information.

    As for some hints for making it easier on the healers. As others already mentioned:
    Get an Entchant for Chest/Cloak/Shield, these are not very expensive.
    Think about changing rare for epic gems.
    Also don't gem parry, ever. Dodge is superior to parry. Dodge gives more avoidance then parry. If you want to take the all out EH route gem Agility. But really never ever gem parry.
    There are some edge conditions where parry MAY be better. But if you don't know what i mean with that really just gem dodge.

    And guys please don't start the endless debate of Avoidance vs EH again. I've read it far too often with the same arguments over and over again. Its old, its boring, there is no easy solution to it.
    And also high HP bring you into Pugs, sounds stupid, is stupid. But thats how it works.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneiroi View Post
    Also don't gem parry, ever. Dodge is superior to parry. Dodge gives more avoidance then parry. If you want to take the all out EH route gem Agility. But really never ever gem parry.
    There are some edge conditions where parry MAY be better. But if you don't know what i mean with that really just gem dodge.
    As a quick note, for warriors and paladins, this statement is not necessarily true. At ToC/ICC gear levels it can actually be often better to gem parry, assuming all you care about is the straight avoidance (I prefer agility myself, but for other reasons). It's not just rare edge cases at this point. In my normal STA gemmed gear, I am already to the point for example.

  19. #19
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    Moved to HALP! forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    As a quick note, for warriors and paladins, this statement is not necessarily true. At ToC/ICC gear levels it can actually be often better to gem parry, assuming all you care about is the straight avoidance (I prefer agility myself, but for other reasons). It's not just rare edge cases at this point. In my normal STA gemmed gear, I am already to the point for example.
    Have you factored in Dimishing returns?
    Because on my Warrior the best i can get out of Parry is 0.13% for 10 rating. (with 2 Stamina trinkets).

    With 2 Stam trinkets dodge came out with 0.17% per 10 rating.

    Even when i put on the deff trinket from onyxia and and a dodge trinket i still get 0.14% per 10 rating after dimishing returns for dodge.


    I don't know your Gear, parry would be better if you have a really low parry/defense ratings. But if you got a complete set without parry rating i would call that an edge case.

    The DR on parry is just that much harsher that it rarely makes sense to gem parry. The DRs on parry kick in just from the ratings you've got on your gear usually.If you know that you're in a situation where parry is better great. Go for it.
    However 9 out of 10 times dodge is better. And even in situations where parry is better, the difference is pretty small. So far i have not met anyone ingame who was gemming parry and was knowing what he was doing.

    So my conclusion is just gem for dodge unless you know how DR's work and what exactly you are doing.

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