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Thread: A new look at ICC Gemming: Stam/Avoidance Gearing vs Stam Stacking

  1. #1
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    A new look at ICC Gemming: Stam/Avoidance Gearing vs Stam Stacking

    I'm posting on here because I see a lot of people posting about ICC, and itemizing, but I don't exactly see many people talk about Chill of the Throne the way I consider it, which is the same way I thought about Sunwell Radiance.

    The way I see it, taking away 20% of our avoidance, makes avoidance 1.2x more valuable of a stat to get, to makeup for all of that incoming damage we're about to get. Because blizzard specifically posted that "Bosses will not hit harder, just more often" it seems to me that getting back that avoidance is much more important than just going LOL-STAM .

    For example, on my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory I show what I mean by going Stam/Avoidance.

    All blue sockets are pure stam, all red are Stam/Dodge (until parry gives me the same amount of avoidance as dodge, then I will swap gems back and forth) and all Green gems are Stam/Defense. These are all considered viable as long as I've found the Socket Bonus is at minimum +6 stam. For helms where the Socket Match is +12 stam, it's rather obvious that losing only 3 stam for 10 dodge rating is a simple choice.

    So what I'm asking for in this thread are 2 things:

    1) A critique on my current system of gemming and enchanting, and math behind why gemming either pure stam, or the half-half system I'm using is better.

    2) A critique on my BIS list that I have created as far as the first 2 wings of ICC10+25. The gem choices and enchants in this set will reflect my half-half system of gemming. The link following takes other certain things into consideration:

    2a) The Stam from Unidentifiable Organ will be up permanently.
    2b) I am using 40 stam 40 Expertise food.
    2c) I am a prot warrior who gains 6 expertise from specc, so current unbuffed expertise is 26.49
    2d) I am a Draenei, so with the current +hit weapon, I have 7.68 hit.

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    (Note that the Facelifter can Replace my current tanking weapon, and I could swap to hit food, or use Agility food at any time if threat is not an issue, which it has yet to be in this instance)

    Edit: Also, I was considering that once I acquire all of these Armor pieces, the 2% Armor 32 stam gem in the helm may end up being better than avoidance+block value.

    Edit: This entire post also considers that all raid debuffs on the boss will be put up by other classes. IE: 20% slow from feral druid / DK, and AP debuff by Ret Paladins. So the only thing I have to do is keep up sunders and do threat. (Hence why I'm not specced into Imp Tclap)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zain View Post
    The way I see it, taking away 20% of our avoidance, makes avoidance 1.2x more valuable of a stat to get, to makeup for all of that incoming damage we're about to get. Because blizzard specifically posted that "Bosses will not hit harder, just more often" it seems to me that getting back that avoidance is much more important than just going LOL-STAM .
    Diminishing returns and spell damage would like to have a word with you.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    Diminishing returns and spell damage would like to have a word with you.
    Hence why I'd like someone to do the full math on it. I currently have yet to be hurt by any spell that's going to kill me. The Frostbolt on deathwhisper25 i've been hit by once, and it's far from able to kill me.

    As far as DR's go, I don't see them being enough to make me want to change what I'm doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zain View Post
    Hence why I'd like someone to do the full math on it. I currently have yet to be hurt by any spell that's going to kill me. The Frostbolt on deathwhisper25 i've been hit by once, and it's far from able to kill me.

    As far as DR's go, I don't see them being enough to make me want to change what I'm doing.
    Nothing in normal mode is going to kill you out-right (assuming you're geared out of t9 loot of at least badge quality), so that isn't a good basis for measuring what is the best gemming method for ICC as a whole. Add in the fact we've seen a grand total of 1 wing thus far, and I would say that if it isn't too early to tell, stam is most certainly a safer bet at this point by virtue of it's flexibility.

  5. #5
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    You are still socketing the half stam gems or full stam gems, and using 2 pure stamina trinkets. You are changing a tiny iota on the overall scale of stamina / avoidance... it isn't a new look at gearing at all. A 1400ish life vs 3-4% avoidance shift will rarely make or break your success in a normal instance. I also don't think using normal mode anything is a good way to measure success. ICC 25 is just like ToC 25... drastically undertuned.

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    Its like satrina stated time and time again. After a certain level of difficulty is surpassed you can tank in spirit gear and still be fine. Normal icc is not at a level of difficulty yet to really push the avoidance vs eh wargument not to mention, like edgewalker stated, your only swapping our small gains for small losses especially since you gun for stam bonus anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    You are still socketing the half stam gems or full stam gems, and using 2 pure stamina trinkets. You are changing a tiny iota on the overall scale of stamina / avoidance... it isn't a new look at gearing at all. A 1400ish life vs 3-4% avoidance shift will rarely make or break your success in a normal instance. I also don't think using normal mode anything is a good way to measure success. ICC 25 is just like ToC 25... drastically undertuned.
    This. If you look at two tanks with the same TimeToLive (TTL), on an avoidance tank and the other a giant meatbag, the only difference is that healer has to work harder on the meatbag. If you healer is struggling to keep you up, either the difference in avoidance or EH from a regem won't help you, the healer is undergeared, or the more likely scenario, stop standing in the F! fire/poison/etc. already. I see many tanks calling out DPS standing in the fire while they promptly stay rooted on the spot, from rogue poison vile in ToC5man to Koralon cinders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    This. If you look at two tanks with the same TimeToLive (TTL), on an avoidance tank and the other a giant meatbag, the only difference is that healer has to work harder on the meatbag. If you healer is struggling to keep you up, either the difference in avoidance or EH from a regem won't help you, the healer is undergeared, or the more likely scenario, stop standing in the F! fire/poison/etc. already. I see many tanks calling out DPS standing in the fire while they promptly stay rooted on the spot, from rogue poison vile in ToC5man to Koralon cinders.
    Although not good practice, the tanks can generally survive doing it while the dps cant tho.
    Still, its a bad example to set..

  9. #9
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    Thanks for all the replies so far. Does anyone have any ideas on how good the dodge coin is going to be compared to a heroic satrinas? I like to think the Putricide Trinket is going to have a 100% uptime on 240 stam. I'm just hoping that avoidance chains don't ruin it, or certain bosses with long cast times, though I figure if a boss has a long cast time and that 240 stam fades, I better be at full hp anyway before I get hit =P

  10. #10
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    The Corpe Tongue Coin is nothing special compared to heroic Satrinas,the dodge on it just isn't worth all of the extra EH you gain from 216 stamina. Both have fairly good on uses though but the Corpe Tongue really stands out in situations where avoidance is favored like Saurfang or a future boss where you may be getting hit while you are under 35% constantly.
    Last edited by krc; 12-31-2009 at 05:20 PM.

  11. #11
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    I am interested to see the armor angle. If your going to take the hits why not make them smaller. I don't quite buy the spell damage angle. It makes sense to gem stam for say frequent burst such as Malygos breaths when we were half 213 gear. You have a lot of insignificant spell damage where health pool doesn't matter. Then you have the large predictable burst such as Mimirion phase 1 that is more cooldown reliant than gemming. Im just throwing thoughts out but yeah going for socket bonuses is a fairly conservative change.

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    Its kind of hard to do this discussion (with math) before values for damage in heroic modes is known. One thing is certain however, armor will have an increased value due to getting hit more often (as mentioned above). For myself I can say that I'll maximize my effective health until my healers start noticing issues with mana (I wager there's at least one mana intensive fight in heroic mode).

  13. #13
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    The way I will be dealing with armor is basically using its EH value relative to stamina and adjusting the value down to what every percentage of the burst that kills me is unmitigable. For example say Boss A kills me with a melee hit followed by Ability X that is physical, in this situation I would value armor for how ever much it is worth on a standard EH calculator.

    Say Boss B kills the tank with a melee, Ability X and Ability Y that is unmitigable, say that Ability Y that is magical does around 30% of the burst that kills you, armor here would be davalued by 30% of what it is on a EH calculator. Alot of times though if it is a timed burst cooldowns can simply take it out of the equations if used properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    wargument
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