Stupid people are... well..... stupid...
This is while I am playing my druid, but it applies to tanking.
In the last three days I have noticed a new trend, tanks running off while there are party members that are dead, and even engaging the next mob packs knowing full well that there is no healer available because I am sitting there casting a rez.
In the most recent case, a DPS died due to misunderstand what the next target was: he ran slightly off at an angle from the party and directly into a pack of mobs that were being bypassed. The rest of the party ran up to the boss and engaged. The errant dps then died. The boss was then killed off quickly and I started running back to rez the DPS.
The tank then ran off. I was hoping he would wait at the next set of mobs, but no! The tank engaged the next set of mobs while I was clearly in a completely different place helping a party member. Supreme obnoxiousness itself. I see the tank's and the DPSs' life begin to go down, down, down. They were fairly well equipped, gear-wise, and so they made it through, barely.
I switch to cat and boosted my speed to catch up, but they were no where in sight, having already run yet further onward, and there were pats in the area that are normally killed off in this instance before moving on, and they spotted me, so I ran on beyond the pat and caught up with the tank and lead DPS to pull the pat directly on top of them and the other mobs they were engaging and healed like mad to save them all.
The tank and the chain-pulling he was committing basically made the entire run a ridiculously stupid pain in the rear end.
Obviously the new tanking mandate appears to be: All for me, and more for me too!
Parties and teamwork? Not for modern tanks, these ideas!
I think I am going to have to start a new policy. Every time I see a tank run off to start engaging mobs seconds after materializing in an instance, and to begin pulling multiple packs of mobs for no reason, threatening wipe after wipe, both sure signs of the new emergent super-mega-blankity-blank obnoxious speed tanking stupidity-technique, which seems largely connected to also leaving dead party members behind, I am going to have to let them die and then step out of the instance.
Why not? Trading obnoxiousness for obnoxiousness must be right. Right?
Have fun playing WoW? What the heck was I thinking!
Stupid people are... well..... stupid...
True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
Agg's tanking guide
That's why I prefer a Pala tank when healing, they usually tend to ress themselves :P
Protection Warrior SpreadsheetOriginally Posted by Ion
Yes, I realize that stupid is as stupid does, but it's just that this now seems to edging toward becoming a norm. That is upsetting.
Where do people come up with the idea that leaving parties members dead is either fun or a good idea?
Please don't generalise because you had a few bad experiences over LFD.
A lot of those "tanks" are just faceroll DPS claiming they'll tank because they want to find a group quick, though sadly some are indeed abusing the fact that they are needed as an excuse to be an asshat.
On behalf of the nicer part of tanks, I'd like to give you a hug. A bearhug, since I'm also a druid.
@wazdaa gj on making yourself look like a tool, too.
Funnny sidenote: When we did naxx some months ago, nobody would get rezzed. If you died you had to run back
Now, in heroics I try to compromise between having a fast run and having a relaxed run. Everyone wants to clear the instance quickly. If someone slacks behind and get killed by mobs that obviously wasn't supposed to be killed, it's their fault, and not the fault of the tank that didn't clear that pack. You need to pay attention where you walk.
Of course there is no point in going forward to much because it just don't help make the run quicker. I must say it has happened that I wiped because the healer DCed and I didn't notice. I usually just try to keep notice of the party state, if nothing special happends (extreme big pulls that drained the healer's mana, deaths, ...) I rarely stop, even before bosses. The instances are such a joke anyway. (I usually check the healer's average gear before starting ofcourse)
Anyway, you'll always encounter idiots, it's just how it is. Put the player on your ignore list, and you won't encounter him again.
I just RP. If they died, they're dead. Forever. Best to go on and not mourn too long...
As wazdaa clearly indicates.. LFG is another acronym for ADHD anonymous.
As a tank.. I get hit with impatient DPS and healers.
As a healer.. I get hit with impatient DPS and tanks.
It's DPS we need to be angry at! They're the common trend!
i'm sure there are ppl who run heroics for the social part (i never encounter em, but admitted i'm not open to it either i prefer talking to friends/guildies), just as there are ppl who run heroics for them to be over as fast as possible, link dmg meters at the end and what not.
let's be honest some days ago there was a topic about tanks QQ'ing healers where pulling to make the run go faster, now there is a topic about healers QQ'ing about tanks being to fast paced. clearly that's the best proof not everyone is looking for the same in an heroic. calling someone not nice bc they happen to not think alike when it comes to the purpouse of heroics doesn't make you sound very nice yourself now does it.
i've always respect my healers and my dps, and for the few times i do pug i'll adept to what the dps/healer is capable of. that's what being nice is all about for me. waiting for a ress has nothing to do with it as long as you don't risk wiping to whole group in doing so. i'll wait for a healer if he wants to drink, however if he drinks to much i'll tell him so. i'll wait for a healer if he needs to go afk. i'll wait in front of a boss for an afk dps'er as long as it isn't taking ages and he warned me. within those limits i'll push it as hard as i possibly can and quite frankly i've never had any complaints quite the opposite.
And admitted my stance on pug dps(healers) might sound harsh, unfair and what not and that's for the simple reason. i can understand you're new and not fully decked out in the most shiny epics, i can fully understand you're not spiking 10k dps, i can however not understand you go afk without notice, i can not understand you pull pats we are skipping as i'm not your babysitter. and i admit i prefer running with fully decked out ppl over new ppl, but i also prefer running with friends over fully decked out ppl.
if you do babysit ppl, that's very noble of you, but me not wanting to do that doesn't mean i'm a 'bad tank'. some ppl go to war/disasterzones helping out the local ppl, they are heroes, me not doing that doesn't make me a bad person, might make them better ppl then me though.
I want to see several consecutive sets of three-pack pulls using a random PUG of players done with no healer and the aux heals only using "occasional" procs, with no breaks. We'll need some definition on occasional and proc, say, only one heal proc per five seconds maximum and no no actual healing spells at all. Keep a dump of the combat log so we can make sure no actual healing spells were cast. The packs should all have three to four each, no pulling three singles and calling it a three-pack pull.
Why not H-HoL, right after Ionar: pull the two golems, the two spear carriers, and hey, why not both packs of three dwarves at once (you can go for four packs since it's so easy!).
Nobody's perfect, and your various statements makes it appear to me that you aren't willing to help others out. "Me, me, me!"
Ok, so let's see what's going on here.
PosterA is frustrated about a tank that doesn't now what "wait, dammit" stands for.
PosterB half-reads it and goes on a rampage against PosterA's "clearly bad play"
No one else noticed that what really happened escaped both of them's grasp: The tank was too dumb to notice the lack of teammates.
It's a complex issue. While I know it's annoying to have to run after a chain pulling tank, it's equally annoying to get bashed by your group for pulling slowly. This is something a lot of tanks are experiencing and as a result, they just keep pulling constantly because it's become the thing to do.
My advice though is try talking to the tank first. They may have no idea they are doing anything wrong. (and by talk, I don't mean, "hey idiot, slow down!")
I'm all for chainpulling but I'm not trying to solo the instance so I want my party with me, fully buffed and ready to kick ass, not dead on the floor in the previous room.
Last edited by dotOrion; 12-30-2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: Offensive.
no offense but the dps that pulled that group, quite frankly i wouldn't even have bothered to go ress such a tool, read what i wrote above i have no problem running with new ppl who are decent, but i'm not babysitting.
I remain with my statement that if he knew he would manage till you got to him there is no problem going on and well if he was being a cow boy then gz on saving him.
2nd obviously tactics aren't the same with a ret paladin healing with his procs as when you have a dedicated healer think that speaks for itself. and yes when i do such runs it's with guildies i'm not suicidal and yes they are well geared and yes they work together (though that doesn't mean much more then interupt casts, keep stuns on cd and cc where needed while zerging em down)
and srry to dissapoint you but i'm not going to make a movie you'll have to take my word for it that it's doable. i'm not even saying it's ideal or that we never died, bringing a healer is easier and for most parts faster. but it certainly is doable.
lastly as i wrote above i've no problem tanking for new ppl if they happen to be in the group lfd placed me, however i'm not willing to babysit some tool. that doesn't mean i expect you to be an uber player(i'm not perfect either), but that does mean i expect you to be able to run to the boss rather then steer left and try to rambo down a group on your own (lol). if you have no problem babysitting, gz then you probably are more patient then me with a total stranger who won't thank you for it anyway let alone return the favour.
ps read your second post, think you mentioned stupid several times. your words not mine.
The big underlying problem is, in my experience, the pervasive culture of ego and one-upmanship in WoW. Too many people play the game not for enjoyment, but as a means of self-validation. Pulling too fast, bragging about how you can finish instances before the dungeon debuff wears off, etc. are just the most recent symptom of that.
I votekicked a puggy because he was saying "gogogo" whilst I waited the 10 seconds for a healer to res someone that died on a boss. I hate kids.
Don't tolerate bull**** just because everyone else does.
You know, I had a similar experience this weekend on my lowbie warrior tank (Level 40ish). On my paladin (80 and in mostly ToC/Triumph gear) I can pretty much sustain myself through a heroic (Seal of Light ) if I need to. I have no problems pulling slower or faster if the rest of the group wants to change the pace.
However, I join a random on my warrior (second time I'd tanked on him ever) and literally while I'm typing "may be a little slow, haven't tanked much on this guy" they're pulling the first mob in the Scarlet Monastery (Armory I think). I hated that run. It was quick, but I was running to try to grab agro back the whole time and half the time not really knowing what the right tool for the job was or what other tools might fit the situation. I didn't learn a whole lot that run either. Later on I got a SM-Cathedral run where the group was fine with pulling at my pace and I got a real chance to experiment and figure out how to tank on my warrior.
I guess my point is this: If you know that you can handle the situation, go for it (ie if you're ret but your gear/damage is good enough that you can handle a trash pack unassisted or if you're a tank and know you won't need support for a minute or two). If you need to rely on somebody else's support (whether you're a DPS and you need to rely on the tank to know how to get agro back from you or you're a tank and you know you'll need healing to make it through the fight) then I'd be sure that the person you're relying on is ready and isn't stressed out.
I tank (on several characters) and I have a dedicated healer (my fiance - on several characters). Being able to know how your healer (or your tank, if you are the healer) runs things is great boon for doing heroics (maybe find a tank on your server that you can group with routinely?). An open line of communication works as well (we use Skype or vent, since she's an Aussie).
I've taken to announcing at the beginning of an instance that I will do my best to be a great tank, and the healer does the same, BUT if you are obnoxious and constantly doing the wrong thing (and not just because you're inexperienced) I will let you tank what you pull, and she won't heal you through it. I usually "kill" 1 DPS every 5-10 heroics. Most people stop being the anonymous prick when they realize the only person it's going to hurt is themselves.
On the very very very rare occasion that someone dies, I combat rez them and move on, mid pull usually. Just hit barkskin and SI and even with 4-5 things on me I wont die in caster form in the 2 seconds it takes to cast.
If not, I tell the healer to rez after the pull, and use all my cooldowns to solo the next pull while the healer rezez.
Most of these guys never stop, get the healer killed because the tank really isn't holding everything, and then blames said healer for him dying. No, Darksend, I'm not your biggest fan, but I think you're not the type to screw up and blame it on someone else. You may not stop, but the healer's not dying because you're not good enough to go that fast. I don't mind a blindingly fast tank, but, he better be good enough to handle it, or I'm not going to stick around.
That's where the real problem lies. Tanks going faster than their skill. I don't mind a tank that never stops, as long as he's not stupid about it, but a lot are exactly that. If I'm healing a run, and the tank goes that far ahead of me while I rez someone, and then dies, or if he isn't as good as he thinks he is, and a mob squashes me while he's two rooms ahead of me, I'll probably just leave the run because of too much stupid, especially if he blames it on me. Healers don't get instances quite as fast as tanks, but plenty fast enough to suit me, rather than run with people like that.
TL;DR: If you're going to pull at blinding speed, you better be *that good*. I'm sure Darksend is, but there's a ton of tanks out there that aren't.
Last edited by mavfin; 12-30-2009 at 08:54 AM.