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Thread: 3/3 Deep Wounds VS 3/3 Focus Rage

  1. #1
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    3/3 Deep Wounds VS 3/3 Focus Rage

    I am stuck between which one is "better"...
    What are your opinions?
    Does anyone have data?

  2. #2
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    I've always taken both, to be honest. reducing the rage cost of bloody near everything is very nice, and deep wounds+thunderclap/shockwave crits=a continuous stream of aggro.
    Last edited by Eisen; 12-29-2009 at 09:42 AM.

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    the question is really 5/5 shield block versus 2/5 shield block and 3/3 focused rage, and imo 3/3 focused rage wins. Always get 3/3 deep wounds.
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    IF I have to choose: Deep Wounds.

    Simply because it easily counts as 10% of my total threat and let's face it, unless you're doing heroics with trigger-happy AoE classes(at which point you have bigger problems than rage), you don't really need that much rage reduction nowadays.
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    Focused Rage is nice, but in a near-infinite rage situation in raid tanking you'll find it's pretty limited in value for threat. However in the world of efficiency vs generation, Shield Block Spec now gives you Rage for Block/Dodge/Parry which will particularly add up to the point where you don't need cheaper moves because you're generating so much threat.

    I like Focused Rage for OT'ing or 5-mans, situations where you will not be flushed with Rage.

    That said, both talents are rage generation/efficiency items and your threat gains will be primarily through it allowing you to used more moves or not. Deep Wounds is just flat out threat, and for that purpose, Impale+Deep Wounds is just too delectable for a Prot warrior with all the passive +crit chance talents (and set bonuses if you have them).


    In my current build (aimed more at 5-mans and not progression raid survivability) I have all 3 talents filled.
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  6. #6
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    As above - In my usual (threat) build, I take both; and for the reasons already stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Focused Rage is nice, but in a near-infinite rage situation in raid tanking you'll find it's pretty limited in value for threat.
    This is very much true; however for aoe situations I still like to keep it, since I tend to roll my face on cleave and that eats rage like nothing.

    I've heard good things from people about 5/5 shield spec, however in my personal experience even after the imporvements focused rage is more efficient.

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    I have to agree with Eisen, I've tried the 5/5 shield spec 0/3 focused rage, and I found I was more rage starved and got less heroic strikes in because of it. Maybe it has to do with my playstyle and I micromanage the crap out of HS so I might get rage starved easier than others, but I've found focused rage to be far far more beneficial than 5/5 shield spec.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I have to agree with Eisen, I've tried the 5/5 shield spec 0/3 focused rage, and I found I was more rage starved and got less heroic strikes in because of it. Maybe it has to do with my playstyle and I micromanage the crap out of HS so I might get rage starved easier than others, but I've found focused rage to be far far more beneficial than 5/5 shield spec.
    I've found it something the opposite myself. It's probably just a playstyle thing, but I definitely prefer shield spec after trying a few runs either way. It's still kinda moot in ICC, where even Deathwhisper's adds give me a gazillion rage on their swings. I tank heroics in half dps gear, so I'm pretty rarely rage starved in there too.

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    I find I can always generate plenty of threat given enough rage to use my abilities constantly, even in a more defensive spec. So, it's focused rage for me to allow that to happen more often (and 5/5 shield). It also gives you flexibility to be useful in low rage situations too.

    Besides, i'm the one running with imp demo so it's not like I'd have a choice if i wanted to anyway
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  11. #11
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    Shield Spec and Focused Rage are a little situational for their relative values. We haven't really talked math though.

    Focused Rage should be fairly consistent if you're going through a predictable proportion of moves, as each one will save you a little rage. If you're using every GCD on a threat ability, that's 120 rage per minute you'd save (though it doesn't quite work out like that thanks to SnB procs and the odd defensive move that is on the GCD).

    To figure out how much that is, we'll say SnB is the only factor reducing it. If you're only using Shield Slam, Devastate, and Revenge for non-on-next-swing moves (excluding Tclap, Demo Shout, Shockwave, etc for simplicity), and we'll assume A.) you're mid-fight and B.) you never miss with these specials. We want to use Shield Slam when it's up, Revenge when it procs, and Devastate otherwise. Without SnB we'd use Shield Slam every 4th GCD. SnB will mean that the 3 moves in between (Rev/Dev) will each have a 30% chance to proc a free Shield Slam early. Let's just simplify it to say that we're using Shield Slam always on SnB, and on average once every 3 GCDs. 40 GCDs per minute, 13 free Shield Slams, and 27 Rev/Devs. That means 27 times you save 3 rage per minute, or 81 rage saved per minute. So the best possible case for Focused Rage would be 120 Rage per minute, in theory you may be able to do worse than 81 rage per minute, anecdotally I'd guess it's somewhere in the middle.

    Shield Spec is more dependent on the situation. Every dodge/parry/block generates 5 rage. If you're up against one target swinging every 2.0 seconds, not in ICC, with say 25% dodge, 20% parry, and 20% block, you'll have 65% of the swings proc Shield Spec, or ~19.5 swings per minute, which would be 97.5 rage per minute. However, up that to swings every 1.5 seconds and that goes to 130 rage per minute. If you tank two things at once, each swinging every 2.0 seconds, suddenly this gives you 195 rage per minute.

    The value of Shield spec also scales with your gear (though it is a little reduced in ICC with Chill of the Thrown), with the number of targets attacking you, with the speed at which avoidable/blockable attacks come, etc.
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    That's....some pretty convincing math.

    Mind you between CotT and the fact I swear Blizz yanked block rating off everything in game post-Ulduar, I'm concerned that in Icecrown it might not work out that well. But I'm debating respeccing to give it a shot. Didn't seem to work that well the last time, but I've been having rage gen issues a lot lately.

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    But, satorri, you didn't include heroic strike usage, in which case if you're using a typical 1.6 speed weapon and have say, 90% heroic strike uptime, you're gonna have a much higher rage saved ratio for focused rage, but this devolves into a "saving rage for a rage dump?!" discussion. =P

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    Hmm, good point, it did not account for rage saved on HS or Cleave.

    Hmmm, lemme see. It is a dump, so it is hard to account for really how much you'll save. In situations that are typical of raid tanking now, you may have more rage than you know what to do with and you'll dump on every cooldown. But that's the situation where efficiency is no longer terribly important. On the other hand, if you are in a lower rage situation you won't be dumping as much, how much will rage saved/generated increase your dumps (which in turn will be easier with Focused Rage because the dump will cost less...).

    At least we can look at the extremes!

    If you used HS on every weapon swing, with a 1.5 sec speed weapon (leaving out haste for now), that's 40 swings per minute. Assuming Imp Heroic strike as a baseline talent (since we're getting Impale), that is 12 rage without Focused Rage, 9 rage with. So, on HS spam, Focused Rage will add another 120 rage per minute saved.

    To put it a different way, to maintain that HS spam without Focused Rage we'd need to generate a surplus of 480 rage per minute beyond what we need for our normal skill use. With Focused Rage we'd only need to generate 360. On HS that's a 25% reduction (12 => 9). If we looked at Cleave instead, note it will still only reduce the total by 120 since we're limited by the speed of our weapon. Cleave costs 20 rage, so to spam Cleave for a minute would take 800 surplus rage per minute and Focused Rage would knock that down to 680, a 15% savings.

    So, if we consider a low rage situation, arbitrarily let's say we only generate 240 surplus rage per minute. Without Focused Rage that would support a HS every other swing, 20 per minute. With Focused Rage that would become 26.67 HS per minute, or a gain of ~6.7 HS per minute.

    So, using those as benchmarks, consider how often you can use HS in the typical situations as that will give you a pretty good idea of what kind of rage excess you have.

    I'm not going to dig much deeper on this, because it will open a can of worms that I would probably jump into and splash around in, involving rage generated, in proportion to gear, and how much you can really expect each to work out.


    Here's something fun to think about though. In a near infinite rage situation, which is more valuable?

    Focused Rage = smaller rage cost
    Shield Spec = more rage generated and more block chance

    If rage is never a concern, smaller costs is meaningless. More block chance is functional (regardless of how great you think block is, it is still a contributor), and in fact, more rage generation is not necessarily wasted. I haven't checked the Prot tests in a while, but usually the bonus rage generated gives additional threat. So long as you aren't pinned to 100 rage, every little bit of rage you squeeze in will pad your threat generated.
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  15. #15
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    interesting indeed, i guess i'm used to having a certain "feel" for my rage, and I'd probably never drop focused rage, but functionally that may not be optimal, whoda thunk!

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    I get Shield Spec simply because with the buff to Critical Block, the survival value is decent and I rarely have rage issues either way.

    The other advantage to Shield Spec is that it gives me rage in scenarios where I'm likely to run out, at the start of pulls or during strange sequences of events. Most of the cost savings from Focused Rage is simply going to be from spamming abilities when I'm getting hit and pegged at 100 rage constantly, so you can basically throw those cases out the window to an extent.

    I'm sure both work out to be quite decent depending on your playstyle, but I prefer Shield Spec personally. Think it's a rotation/style thing more than anything.

    As for the original question, Deep Wounds is miles better than both of them for TPS gains.
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    I haven't spec deep wounds in my tank spec since totc release and I wonder if its hindered my dps'ers. I haven't heard complaints but I do wonder if going back to 15/3/53 would be better.

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    As far as ideal theorycrafting numbers go, it appears that 3 points in Deep Wounds is worth roughly 1k TPS, and Deep Wounds + Impale is about 1.4k TPS total.

    Our buffed crit rate is quite high in raids, and as on bosses Heroic Strikes cause most of our damage sources to be affected by Impale the net gain is pretty substantial.

    (At least for me, each crit nets me about 920ish damage per Deep Wounds proc, and as it procs from basically everything including Damage Shield, it adds up pretty fast.)
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    Damage Shields can not crit anymore, thus can't proc DW.

    But it does proc off everything else
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Damage Shields can not crit anymore, thus can't proc DW.

    But it does proc off everything else
    When did they change that? Was it in 3.3? Wasn't long ago I saw combat logs with Damage Shield crits... (Although at a pretty low rate.)

    Edit: Ah, I see the other thread that the fix to making it not proc effects seemed to ninja-disable it critting as well. Interesting. Doesn't change the value of Deep Wounds too much since Damage Shield was fairly minimal of a contribution, but good to know.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 12-31-2009 at 09:15 PM.
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