Closed Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 71

Thread: Gearscore =/= Player Performance

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    29
    I'll endorse gearscore for at least one use: deciding who to put vigilance on at the start of a random 5 man group.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,897
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrim View Post
    I'll endorse gearscore for at least one use: deciding who to put vigilance on at the start of a random 5 man group.
    O man, you might be my hero.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrim View Post
    I'll endorse gearscore for at least one use: deciding who to put vigilance on at the start of a random 5 man group.
    Ok that comment might be win right there...

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    AZ (Zonie)
    Posts
    376
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanye View Post
    1.6k was sufficient to clear Naxx when WotLK dropped. Maybe not a full clear the first time you went in, but it was sufficient.

    Nowadays,. people seem to think you can't tank a heroic if you've got less than 30k HP, or DPS one if you're putting out less than 3k...never mind that some classes do better on long fights than short fights so any dps race will show some abysmal numbers.
    This,

    My Shadow Priest is doing around 2.3, to 2.6dps, in Heroics, except when on a long boss fight, or when I get a string of crits. My personal high, so far, is 3.4dps, on the last boss of the new dungeon, after the ice cave. And, I was also the last one standing, barely...(thank god for the one time I remembered to use my racial health talent, and dispersion!).

    Point being, it takes time to set up all my Dots, which are useless, in a fight that lasts under a minute. It really doesn't bother me, though, as I'm also helping in healing everyone, at the same time, and occasionally dispelling nasty stuff!
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    6
    Gear score measures potential, not skill. Many confuse the two. Let's put it this way: Your gear score measures the size of your cup. A gear score of 3000 might be a 10 ounce cup, while a gear score of 5000 might be an 18 ounce cup. What Gearscore cannot measure is how full that cup is.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bremerton, Wa
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrim View Post
    I'll endorse gearscore for at least one use: deciding who to put vigilance on at the start of a random 5 man group.
    DISCLAIMER: Sorry if this comes across cruel or trite but GS seems so uselss to me. I'm sure you were being sarcastic or witty but there is so much chance for misinterpretation on the intardwebs.

    Or you could run one less mod, do a pull, watch omen, select party member with highest threat, push vigilance button. And being a good tank that watched omen sporadically you could adjust as the instance runs along. Maybe changing depending on the fight (single target, AoE) or not worrying about it at all since omen points out that threat is not going to be an issue at all in this run. See.. I just did what you did with GS using a mod every raid tank should already be running and about 2/10ths of a second of watching.

    Or forgoing mods all together I can tank as best as I know how and throw vig on the member that pulls agg on a few mobs that I have to taunt back.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullwerk View Post
    DISCLAIMER: Sorry if this comes across cruel or trite but GS seems so uselss to me. I'm sure you were being sarcastic or witty but there is so much chance for misinterpretation on the intardwebs.

    Or you could run one less mod, do a pull, watch omen, select party member with highest threat, push vigilance button. And being a good tank that watched omen sporadically you could adjust as the instance runs along. Maybe changing depending on the fight (single target, AoE) or not worrying about it at all since omen points out that threat is not going to be an issue at all in this run. See.. I just did what you did with GS using a mod every raid tank should already be running and about 2/10ths of a second of watching.

    Or forgoing mods all together I can tank as best as I know how and throw vig on the member that pulls agg on a few mobs that I have to taunt back.
    I was being quite serious. You spent a paragraph describing what you do. I move my mouse over everyone and put vig on the guy with the biggest number. Done.

    95% of the time it is the right person to have it. Because I'm only a badge/10 man raider it is not unusual for me to end up in a group with a DPSer who outgears me by a large margin - identifying those people *before* the first pull goes wacky is useful, and who wants to sit around at the start of a random while I look over everyone's gear to make a choice? People want to get in and out with a minimum of fuss, including me.

    I've been tanking since release day, at this point any mod that saves me a little bit of annoyance is a good mod.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,908
    I pick the pure DPS that has over 20K HP.

    If after the first pull, he's not my guy, it goes on someone else who is on the top. Or quite often, i just stick it on the healer, that way I know I will have a taunt ready to save the healer if i need it.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    558
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I joined a random HoR heroic pug.......
    And GS is to blame for this chain of events how? You're assuming, becasue the spriest made such a quick judgement, that they were using the GS mod. Unless you left something out of the story that confirmed he was running the mod, he could easily have formed the same opinion based on an inspection of your gear. Maybe blizz should remove the ability to inspect other toons in game? Let the player's perfomance speak for iteslf?

    IMO, the only thing worse than the people who treat gearscore as an indication of your actual performance are the ones that complain endlessly about the mod. I'd be the happiest wow player ever if i never heard about it again, in trade chat, wow forums, tankspot....... etc etc etc.

    The last couple GS thread have been locked, I'm hoping this one meets the same end.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    536
    I have to agree that GS is primarily my way of identifying potential threat issues before they happen. That's the vigilance target, he outgears me by a bit.

    Now, am I sometimes turned on my head when that guy does half the DPS of someone with 1k less gearscore? It happens. But odds are that the higher gear usually=the higher threat.

    That said GS elitists annoy me. Had a group /frowning at my poor 80 DK who jsut started heroics with a handful of epics, the rest blue and even green...then they noticed he was top on the DPS chart. Knowing your rotation beats gear more often than not.

    Unfortunately it's here to stay. Esp with a lot of us spending time in the random DF queues, who themselves use a system similar to gearscore to decide what content we're even capable of. And sites like WoW-Heroes and Imba, once great places to learn what we need most to improve, have now turned into "click here to see if this guy measures up to your standards".com. But that's that, tanks. Let's roll with it. If some stupid pug or scrub raiding guild won't take you because of a number, their loss. There will be others.
    Last edited by Eisen; 12-29-2009 at 12:17 AM.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    If some stupid pug or scrub raiding guild won't take you because of a number, their loss. There will be others.
    Very true, and yet it feels like it might become un-true. The more stock that's put by that number and the more stock that will be put by it in the future, means that it's very likely that unless we do something other than distance ourselves from the problem, which admittedly saves us stress and repair bills so that's cool at least, we're gonna run into it more and more until we eventually have no choice.

    and for the record there are fights like Twin Emperors out there, heck there's fights like um...think it's the royal procession or whatever it was from AQ. Where there's three of them and the fight and loot changes depending on the order you down the trio in. Sound familiar? I'm seeing Iron Council among others.

    thinking about all this, especially because this isn't the first gearscore debate that's popped up, (I can think of at least three in recent memory) I think the best thing that could be done for those of us who may not like it but need to learn to roll with it, would be if someone could sorta make some kind of 'Gearscore and you' type of thread with just general numbers and values and things that we need to know to be able to live with this system at least until it burns out.

    I mean thinking about it, everyone has their own preferences on what score is required to make certain dungeons and things, but TankSpot is a relatively popular place. If someone takes the time to put up solid numbers that we can mostly go by, then not only do we have a good resource for dealing with gearscore, but then maybe the instances of people trying to sneak in with lower scores will lessen because there's a semi-concrete number floating around out there that people can know.

    One little post might just cut down drastically the 'OMG! gearscore is needed because this dude tried to get into my VoA run with X.X GS! He was CLEARLY undergeared!' Yeah...maybe the undergeared person didn't know what gearscore was, or what addon you're using or what number you're expecting or where he or she even stands. Maybe if we have something concrete to go to as a resource then these horror stories won't be so bad...and maybe...just maybe...we can slowly regain our faith that not every player is a moron and we can take a chance sometimes and let it go.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    141
    ^ (didnt want to quote it all)

    We as this community here have to stand together to fight this evil that is the "GearScore"

    On a more serious note, I do agree with what he has to say. We need to work together as this solid TankSpot community to set a guideline for those misguided people that use a number as the basis for EVERYTHING. As a group we should come up with a list of the heroics (or heroic ranges)and raids then assign a reasonable number to go along with them.

    I watched the tutorial video from the guy that made the addon, and he said that you can manually edit the acceptable ranges for the scores that the addon uses. If we as a community come up with the "TankSpot Standards" we may yet see an end to this "5kGS or GTFO" virus that plagues our game.

    (Sorry if it sounds a bit epicish in writing, just watched the new Sherlock Holmes movie. Rather nice if you ask me)

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    536
    Well, Blizz has already given us a way to beat gearscore. Soon, it won't matter.

    Look at it this way. In previous patches and expansions, there were "tiers" of content. You had your Naxx10 guys, you Naxx25 guys, your Ulduar guys, your Ulduar Hard Mode guys, etc.

    Now? A little dilligence and any 80 fresh out of 79 can have a 5k gearscore. I myself retired from wow for a few months prior to 3.3, and between when it came out and today, went from 3.4k to almost 5k. And that's without really putting a lot of time in. The gear "gap" between played of different levels of experience has mostly disappeared, other than maybe the real tough guys have more ICC25 stuff right now. So eventually people will be like "Well, EVERYONE has a 5k+ GS now. How do we tell who to bring to our raids? Then thigns like "word of mouth" and "good reputation as a player" might mean something again.

    Just hold tight brothers.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzobee View Post
    Since when was 2.8k DPS not enough for a heroic? People tend to forget that we all levelled to 80 once and we did not do 2.8k dps freshly dinged at lv80 and nor were our tanks clad in 40k+ HP.
    That is forgotten all to often.

    Back when WotLK was new, the generally accepted standard was 1k (yes, that is right a mere 1000) DPS to be Heroic Ready.

    We beat Heroics just fine at 1k.

    If you are in a group and thinking about dropping someone because they do a lousy 1.5k, that marks you as a failure. With an (obvious) exception for the newer Heroics that actually do need more.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Sheffield, UK
    Posts
    374
    To be honest pretty much everyone has good enough gear to do heroics. I've seldom come across a player with bad enough gear to affect a run, even if there's been the odd blue/green/pvp player doing 1.5k DPS. There's plenty of bad player out there with lots of 232 gear pulling 2k dps so there's no way you can find out if the group will fail before anything happenes.

    The only time i've had bad groups is when you get bad dpsers standing in fires, bad healer or bad tanks, no wipes are ever due to gear issues. This is all on my priest too, as a good tank i can make the run smooth even with crap dps an a crap healer.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Sheffield, UK
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post

    Point being, it takes time to set up all my Dots, which are useless, in a fight that lasts under a minute.
    More like half a minute

    Depending on the size of the pack it's easier to just mind sear everything if you have good group dps and stuff dies fast. Obviously, the worse the rest of the group is the stronger a shadowpriest is because there's more time to dot up everything and reap the rewards.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    28
    This subject has been beaten to death, and is right up there with 'welfare epics' and 'heals can't crit' for useful conversation anymore.

    That aside, I hate it as much as the next guy, but what I also hate is the torches and pitchforks without rational thought.

    Gearscore is two things, two VERY IMPORTANT THINGS that WoW has no other measurement tool to evaluate.

    1. A minimum acceptable benchmark for NON-SUBJECTIVE ANALYSIS of a CHARACTER before committing them to a raid/instance.

    2. An accountability STICK to beat underperforming players with. If you have a 5k gear score but can barely manage 2k DPS, everyone KNOWS you suck as a player. It gives pug raid leaders(a role I am intimate with) a VALID reason to boot some jackass who clearly has the gear to perform, but is missing the right skills to deliver. It gives us a tool to use to punt people who's friends might have been pissed off that we kicked someone from a raid, rather than just pointing at a meter and saying "you suck". It becomes "you are geared to perform, but you still suck. thanks for your time."

    Everyone always focuses on the opposite situation, low GS, high performance. That isn't the issue here, and frankly if you are outperforming your gearscore congrats, you are likely in the minority of average raid pugging people.

    If you like physics, think of it as a metric for potential energy, before you start the chain reaction/explosion/whatever. Do people with 5k+ gearscore end up sucking bawls because they have a special set of high ilvl gear just to get in raids? Yeah, they do. But can you take someone with <2k gearscore into ICC and expect them to drop 5kdps+ reliably when it's needed? No, you can't. Guess what, there is no other way to determine that quickly, and reliably in the game we currently play.

    It isn't going anywhere, because IT WORKS more than it doesn't. Lrn2Cope.

    /rantoff

    PS, yes I still hate gearscore with a passion, I have no idea what my score is on any characters, and I generally refuse to join PuGs that I'm not personally leading myself.

    PSS, Satori....sorry if this seems overly harsh to your well founded OP; it was not my intent. I think in general some measure of community enlightenment needs to take place about what a system like GS actually provides, even if we hate it collectively for all the right reasons.

    PSSS....a professional compulsion of mine that cannot be satiated, that I will punt back on the community.....If you don't like the current solution enough to openly complain about it, you better have a better idea in mind ahead of time. So, I challenge you(collective, everyone), come up with a better way of instant evaluation of a CHARACTER having no knowledge of the ability of the PLAYER behind it, to measure baseline viability for progression level content. I still haven't seen one suggestion that allows at-a-glance "will this dude chain wipe us//will we have to carry him" evaluations to take place.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Hawthorne, New Jersey
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by Saent View Post
    PSSS....a professional compulsion of mine that cannot be satiated, that I will punt back on the community.....If you don't like the current solution enough to openly complain about it, you better have a better idea in mind ahead of time. So, I challenge you(collective, everyone), come up with a better way of instant evaluation of a CHARACTER having no knowledge of the ability of the PLAYER behind it, to measure baseline viability for progression level content. I still haven't seen one suggestion that allows at-a-glance "will this dude chain wipe us//will we have to carry him" evaluations to take place.
    *takes the punt at the 5 yard line and starts running*

    One thing that City of Heroes implemented that was nice was the ability to rate players you had played with in the past and enter a note. There are obvious obstacles to this in WoW, but still it was a nice system. CoH had global names for each player so you could tell if it was a friend's alt or if it was somebody else completely different. Then you select a 1-5 star rating for the guy and enter any notes you care to about him.

    Something like this but a bit more elaborate could be helpful. Maybe allow players to rate other players in their random group at the end of a dungeon and then once 25 (or some other arbitrary number) of ratings it allows other players to see it? Or, don't group you with people you've already 1-starred? (we have this in the ignore function).

    If we're throwing that out the window, then we're putting a lot more onus on YOU the evaluator to do some work. Personally, I'd look at gems/enchants. Are they ones that are useful for that character and spec? That should give you an "idiot check". Maybe more time consuming and certainly requires more game-knowledge about specs/classes you may not have played.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    1,366
    My guild has has a saying that has been around for a long time. "I can fix gear, I can't fix stupid" It has served us well over the years. LOL I have found GS to be totally irrelevant to anything I've done so far. Players can be full t9 and still fail so miserably its amusing.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    And GS is to blame for this chain of events how? You're assuming, becasue the spriest made such a quick judgement, that they were using the GS mod.
    She announced my insufficient gear 5 seconds after loading. It's true she may just be INCREDIBLY fast inspector.

    The point of this thread (the reason I don't think it has been closed yet, anyway) is that this is not intended to defame GearScore as an addon.

    The point is only to share a particularly surprising story to me, and to highlight the fact that blind dismissal based on gear, in a 5-man, is pretty silly.

    If you want to make a "Gearscore is my god" argument, or what have you, go to town.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts