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Thread: Gearscore =/= Player Performance

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Hmmm.

    Recently in my new casual guild I've been doing a little Elemental dpsing. In mostly Resto MP5 gear, including two pieces of healing T9. I probably only have 9% hit, including both my talents and racial. My crit is only around 25%. And I'm not experienced at DPS.

    I'm top DPS every time, beating dedicated DPS players in superior gear. And I don't even AoE bomb things - I cast Chain Lightning from time to time, but mostly I single target focus. And I Hex and Wind Shear and cast heals when required.

    I'm only hitting about 2.8k DPS, but its more then most others seem to manage. Though, thankfully, no-one ever made an issue about my gear.
    This post supports the need for gearscore. 2.8k deeps is not fantastic. People who do not hitcap usually are meh. If the dedicated dps that you play with are less dps in worse gear then they are horrible. That does not make you awesome. I'm not trying to insult you but this is all silly.
    People want to enjoy themselves and rule out obvious things that can cause failure. A crap gearscore is one of those things 99% of the time. People feel they are entitled to be carried. They are not. I just tanked a heroic where I out dps'd two of the "dps". It was 1k chump and 1k chump. They were both complaining that they had been kicked from previous groups because of their abyssmal dps. A simple look at their gearscore showed that they were pew pew and the mage and I were carrying them. It was pathetic. Gear score is a fantastic metric. There are rare people that can do the "max dmg" for their score. Whoopidie doooooooo. 99 out of 100 people cannot. Those 99 people are the ones that post that gear score stinks. The other people are legends on their servers. They already rock the dps/tanks/heals on their mains and people know who they are.
    Here is the kicker! I'm one of those 99 people. The difference is, I don't get my feelings hurt when I'm told...."hey bro, you are not geared enough for this zone." I just try try again.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dormungus View Post
    This post supports the need for gearscore. 2.8k deeps is not fantastic. People who do not hitcap usually are meh. If the dedicated dps that you play with are less dps in worse gear then they are horrible. That does not make you awesome. I'm not trying to insult you but this is all silly.
    People want to enjoy themselves and rule out obvious things that can cause failure. A crap gearscore is one of those things 99% of the time. People feel they are entitled to be carried. They are not. I just tanked a heroic where I out dps'd two of the "dps". It was 1k chump and 1k chump. They were both complaining that they had been kicked from previous groups because of their abyssmal dps. A simple look at their gearscore showed that they were pew pew and the mage and I were carrying them. It was pathetic. Gear score is a fantastic metric. There are rare people that can do the "max dmg" for their score. Whoopidie doooooooo. 99 out of 100 people cannot. Those 99 people are the ones that post that gear score stinks. The other people are legends on their servers. They already rock the dps/tanks/heals on their mains and people know who they are.
    Here is the kicker! I'm one of those 99 people. The difference is, I don't get my feelings hurt when I'm told...."hey bro, you are not geared enough for this zone." I just try try again.
    This is so not true from my personal experience, and since you don't appear to have any stats, I'm going to assume personal experience is admissable. I tank a lot of heroics. I see good dps and bad. There may be a slight correlation between gearscore and ability, but it's not great enough to make judgements on. It's certainly not 99% of people with a low gearscore do crap dps. Maybe 55% of people with low gearscores seem to do crap dps in my experience, while maybe 45% do crap dps with high gearscores.

    I always wait until I've seen what the player is doing before I think about kicking them. Maybe if you wait a little longer instead of kicking the people with the low gearscores, you can see the real pattern instead of going with your assumptions.

  3. #23
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    While I agree that players shouldn't feel like they should be "carried" through an instance, it's a lot harder to not be these days. For example, 2.8k dps is more than adequate for clearing Heroics. Am I automatically carrying someone through Heroic VH because I put out 3.5-4k dps and they're only doing 2k dps, or am I simply running a heroic that I outgear? Especially with the random dungeon finder, having large gear discrepancies is pretty unavoidable at times. That being said, gear isn't always the reason for poor dps either. Sometimes it's player skill, sometimes there are other factor's. For example, I know a hunter who shall remain nameless, who may or may not be related to me, that pulls about 1.2k dps in a Heroic. While he still has things to learn about dpsing his class, the biggest issue he faces is 6k-10k latency. I'm not kidding, I don't know how he doesn't get d/c'ed. Now, whether or not he should be running Heroics with that much latency is another matter, but the point is that there are lots of things that can contribute to low dps, etc. besides gear...
    ...which is kind of tangential to my original point, but whatever.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eravian View Post
    While I agree that players shouldn't feel like they should be "carried" through an instance, it's a lot harder to not be these days. For example, 2.8k dps is more than adequate for clearing Heroics. Am I automatically carrying someone through Heroic VH because I put out 3.5-4k dps and they're only doing 2k dps, or am I simply running a heroic that I outgear? Especially with the random dungeon finder, having large gear discrepancies is pretty unavoidable at times. That being said, gear isn't always the reason for poor dps either. Sometimes it's player skill, sometimes there are other factor's. For example, I know a hunter who shall remain nameless, who may or may not be related to me, that pulls about 1.2k dps in a Heroic. While he still has things to learn about dpsing his class, the biggest issue he faces is 6k-10k latency. I'm not kidding, I don't know how he doesn't get d/c'ed. Now, whether or not he should be running Heroics with that much latency is another matter, but the point is that there are lots of things that can contribute to low dps, etc. besides gear...
    ...which is kind of tangential to my original point, but whatever.
    Agreed. Honestly 1.6k dps is probably sufficient to clear most heroics, but because so many people in raiding gear can put out 4k+ dps now, people look down on the folks just starting out and doing 2k. Nevermind that 2k is actually probably more than is required for those instances. Somehow the person who is pulling their weight by the standards we had a year ago is somehow "being carried."

  5. #25
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    What addon is being used to determine gear score? Never heard of it before I took a break.....

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
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  6. #26
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    It's calle Gearscore.

  7. #27
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    at least the name is original lol.... it's so irritating gettin tells from 7 people when im making an Ony raid saying "so and so doesnt have the gear score blablabla"....

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dormungus View Post
    This post supports the need for gearscore. 2.8k deeps is not fantastic. People who do not hitcap usually are meh. If the dedicated dps that you play with are less dps in worse gear then they are horrible. That does not make you awesome. I'm not trying to insult you but this is all silly.
    People want to enjoy themselves and rule out obvious things that can cause failure. A crap gearscore is one of those things 99% of the time. People feel they are entitled to be carried. They are not. I just tanked a heroic where I out dps'd two of the "dps". It was 1k chump and 1k chump. They were both complaining that they had been kicked from previous groups because of their abyssmal dps. A simple look at their gearscore showed that they were pew pew and the mage and I were carrying them. It was pathetic. Gear score is a fantastic metric. There are rare people that can do the "max dmg" for their score. Whoopidie doooooooo. 99 out of 100 people cannot. Those 99 people are the ones that post that gear score stinks. The other people are legends on their servers. They already rock the dps/tanks/heals on their mains and people know who they are.
    Here is the kicker! I'm one of those 99 people. The difference is, I don't get my feelings hurt when I'm told...."hey bro, you are not geared enough for this zone." I just try try again.
    Since when was 2.8k DPS not enough for a heroic? People tend to forget that we all levelled to 80 once and we did not do 2.8k dps freshly dinged at lv80 and nor were our tanks clad in 40k+ HP.

    1500 DPS sounds about right for someone who just got lv80 and has a few ilv200 blues.

    Ofcourse, doing raids with 10-25 people I can see the need for gear monitoring.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus View Post
    Make sure to pick up your Master Builder's Shirt - Item - World of Warcraft . Best gear score shirt in the game! Only nubs run around with Antiseptic-Soaked Dressing - Item - World of Warcraft . I mean, how will people KNOW you know your class and how to play if you wouldn't even take the time to hit up BRD to get the best shirt?

    GearScore = Ability to pick up gear that has a higher score than what they currently have.

    That's it. Period. Any inference beyond that is purely hypothetical and speculative. I would have missed out on several quality players in my guild if I would have dismissed them on the basis of GearScore.
    Agreed. I recently took over a guild, and we went from wiping 4-5 times in ToC 25 to one-shotting all of ICC. I kicked many players with high gearscore and low awareness, and invited a few newer players with lower gearscore whom I'd seen perform. Since then, we've truly started to mesh, and even got icehowl to 10% in togc before our hunter d/c and got targeted QQ

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Agreed. Honestly 1.6k dps is probably sufficient to clear most heroics, but because so many people in raiding gear can put out 4k+ dps now, people look down on the folks just starting out and doing 2k. Nevermind that 2k is actually probably more than is required for those instances. Somehow the person who is pulling their weight by the standards we had a year ago is somehow "being carried."

    1.6k was sufficient to clear Naxx when WotLK dropped. Maybe not a full clear the first time you went in, but it was sufficient.

    Nowadays,. people seem to think you can't tank a heroic if you've got less than 30k HP, or DPS one if you're putting out less than 3k...never mind that some classes do better on long fights than short fights so any dps race will show some abysmal numbers.

  11. #31
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    "people want to be carried"

    .....my question is: who exactly are we referring to here? the DPS who's got crap for gear and is trying to get into an instance where it's unlikely they'll survive or pull their weight?

    Or...could we be talking about the Raid leader and the people in group who are screaming bloody murder about the undergeared guy and darn near threatening to leave group?

    Yeah, it works both ways. The first kind we all expect and it's the logic cited by those who support gearscore. But what about the second kind? I suppose it's not so much that you want to be 'carried' it's more that you don't want to have trouble of any kind and you want to one-shot everything into oblivion. You want a complete and total lack of a challenge.


    Also...I was thinking earlier...and I was wondering: does this mentality of 'we're supposed to one-shot everything! wiping once is unacceptable! get better!' come from so much of the player-base getting run through early dungeons as opposed to actually FINDING a group for them? I mean, we hold people's hands through their leveling process, providing dungeons that are essentially free from wipes and easy easy loot. They 'grow' so to speak, expecting this everywhere, including endgame. In short we spoiled these people before, and now we're paying for it. Or at least the two phenomina seem to me to be connected...
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  12. #32
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    All of this talk of the need for gearscore makes me think of one thing...

    How the hell did those people clear instances in Vanilla and BC? (rephrased to sound more on topic)

    This gearscore crap has to be by far the WORST idea i have ever seen come from an addon. I have leveled 5 different 80's and have been able to compete with players of all different gear levels shortly after those characters hitting 80. Best example is my paladin. Shortly after Ulduar released, i quit playing Prot and switched to Ret. I didnt have the best gear for ret as I mainly had items from Naxx 10 and heroics for my dps set, I was typically top 5 on dps meters with fully geared out naxx25/os/maly geared dps. Hell even beating some of the people in Ulduar gear. Heck even today I pull 5k to 6k dps as ret with a BLUE ilvl200 cape.

    My personal opinion on those people that complain about gearscore is they need something to make them feel better. The bigger the number the better they are right? This is where they are wrong. The bigger the number the more gear they have managed to soak up.

    A bigger number does not make a better player.
    Last edited by Sedraxis; 12-28-2009 at 01:32 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tylovan View Post
    "people want to be carried"

    .....my question is: who exactly are we referring to here? the DPS who's got crap for gear and is trying to get into an instance where it's unlikely they'll survive or pull their weight?

    Or...could we be talking about the Raid leader and the people in group who are screaming bloody murder about the undergeared guy and darn near threatening to leave group?

    Yeah, it works both ways. The first kind we all expect and it's the logic cited by those who support gearscore. But what about the second kind? I suppose it's not so much that you want to be 'carried' it's more that you don't want to have trouble of any kind and you want to one-shot everything into oblivion. You want a complete and total lack of a challenge.


    Also...I was thinking earlier...and I was wondering: does this mentality of 'we're supposed to one-shot everything! wiping once is unacceptable! get better!' come from so much of the player-base getting run through early dungeons as opposed to actually FINDING a group for them? I mean, we hold people's hands through their leveling process, providing dungeons that are essentially free from wipes and easy easy loot. They 'grow' so to speak, expecting this everywhere, including endgame. In short we spoiled these people before, and now we're paying for it. Or at least the two phenomina seem to me to be connected...
    Yeah, I was always that guy while levelling that refused to run an instance with the level 60 someone wanted to bring into the group. I'd seriously leave the group, because I don't run instances to be completely unchallenged. What's the point in doing RFD, if it's not epic?

    It would be funny, though, if people carried that attitude into heroics. "No! I'm not going to run HoL with that tank! He's got 40k hit points unbuffed! It'll just be boring, with no challenge. Not what I signed on for."

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    It would be funny, though, if people carried that attitude into heroics. "No! I'm not going to run HoL with that tank! He's got 40k hit points unbuffed! It'll just be boring, with no challenge. Not what I signed on for."
    ....um, I'd say that'd be awesome. One day all this blatant concern over gear and not what one can handle or do is gonna catch up to us. One day Blizzard's gonna make us do something old-school like Stun-rotations or heavy crowd-control or things like that, and all the people who scream about gear are gonna fall flat on their faces because they expected that it'd be like always and they can just tank and spank everything because their gear is so epic.

    All of this talk of the need for gearscore makes me think of one thing...

    How the hell did people clear instances in Vanilla and BC?
    A good question, and allow me to add another onto that:

    The people who think gearscore is win and infallible...did they clear any instances in Vanilla and BC? Or did they join us towards the end of BC/beginning of Wrath when this stuff was starting to take hold?
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Agreed. Honestly 1.6k dps is probably sufficient to clear most heroics, but because so many people in raiding gear can put out 4k+ dps now, people look down on the folks just starting out and doing 2k. Nevermind that 2k is actually probably more than is required for those instances. Somehow the person who is pulling their weight by the standards we had a year ago is somehow "being carried."
    There is truth to this. It's easy to look down on people doing less dps that me when I'm tanking... I do 1.9-2.1k dps normally while tanking a heroic as a 5.3k gs warrior. Yesterday I pulled random H UK and was surprised to see the healer and I were over 5k and all 3 dps were under 3k... One was 2.4k... mostly greens. The group had wiped on the first trash pack after you turn the corner out of the skeleton room at which point their healer and tank had left group... not usually a good sign.

    The healer said in /p "Good thing you're here Thunder... :P" and I told the 3 dps to just aoe like nuts. We proceeded to chain pull the instance (a bit slower than normal, but still chain pulling). At the end I was #1 on dps with 2.1k and the 3 dps were 1.9k, 1.8k, and 1.4k. The run was smooth and only took about 25 minutes with no stupidity.

    Bottom line... yeah the healer and I carried 3 dps through the instance, but so what? They were there for gear and I was there for badges. They got gear and I got badges. Everyone was happy.

    TL;DR You can whine about carrying people or you can enjoy the fact that you are able to do the carrying. What is all your shiny gear for if not showing off?
    Last edited by Thundercud; 12-28-2009 at 01:45 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundercud View Post
    Bottom line... yeah the healer and I carried 3 dps through the instance, but so what? They were there for gear and I was there for badges. They got gear and I got badges. Everyone was happy.

    TL;DR You can whine about carrying people or you can enjoy the fact that you are able to do the carrying. What is all your shiny gear for if not showing off?
    I love that last line. There is one simple truth to this. You done like it? Leave group or teleport out of the instance. My friend and I run groups all of the time and we usually make things really easy. I have complained ONCE to a dps that was doing terrible, and thats because he was doing bairly 1k in ulduar gear (aka he was being lazy)

  17. #37
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    I agree with you 100%! Blizzard should bring back boss fights like the "Twins" in AQ 40, and other bosses from BWL, MC, etc.

    That will teach the morons that think that Gear Score is the end all be all of choosing someone for a raid/instance, in my humble opinion.

  18. #38
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    You know, I actually had an interesting run earlier today. I was tanking a group through Heroic Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection. Everyone had great gear except the hunter, who was still in quest blues. He was putting out about 1,000 DPS which is, even by my standards, too low for heroics. However, the other two DPS were doing 4k+ so we were able to clear all three instances without a wipe. The great part, however, was that virtually every piece of hunter mail gear that COULD have dropped, DID. He left that instance with virtually a whole new set of gear. It felt really good helping him out like that.

  19. #39
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    I had a hunter in my PoS group the other day doing 600 dps. He spiked up to 800 dps on one of the trash packs. As we approached the first boss, I think we votekicked him. I don't mind helping out undergeared people, but there is a point when you really are carrying someone, and they aren't putting any effort into it. I just think that people take it to extremes most of the time when getting pissed about people doing 1.8k dps.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Torendil View Post
    You know, I actually had an interesting run earlier today. I was tanking a group through Heroic Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection. Everyone had great gear except the hunter, who was still in quest blues. He was putting out about 1,000 DPS which is, even by my standards, too low for heroics. However, the other two DPS were doing 4k+ so we were able to clear all three instances without a wipe. The great part, however, was that virtually every piece of hunter mail gear that COULD have dropped, DID. He left that instance with virtually a whole new set of gear. It felt really good helping him out like that.
    Wow! I am appalled! I can't believe that you could in good conscience put that hunter in the poorhouse like that... He'll have to borrow gold from all his friends just to enchant it all. Just kidding. ;P It is fun to help someone out when you know they really appreciate it. That's probably the ingredient that leaves such a bad taste in many people's mouth these days... The complete lack of appreciation when you go out of your way to help someone out.

    A little appreciation goes a long way... Word to the wise for all you undergeared toons out there... Stroke a few egos, say some nice words... You might actually get carried farther that way... And in turn be able to carry others all the sooner.

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