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Thread: Gearscore =/= Player Performance

  1. #1
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    Gearscore =/= Player Performance

    I posted this on Lore's video but I really wanted to share because it made me laugh (in a sad, angry sort of way).

    I have a DK on a second server to play with some friends. All of my other 80s are on a different server, along with their achievements and local reputation. My new little DK hit 80 last Monday night, and in the 6 days since has gotten 4 pieces of t9.0, both epic rings (200, 245), 219 helm, weapon, belt, and 200 blue neck, cloak, and other trinket. Haven't upgraded my sigil (will happen tonight), and have 187 blue bracers (BS craftable, all Str/Crit/Hit, better than most 200 bracers from heroics). So, long story short, she's sporting an avg ilvl of around 204, and her gear score is probably relatively low.

    I joined a random HoR heroic pug. Within 5 seconds of loading in (not long enough to *actually* look at my gear) the "healer" (in shadow spec, not switched yet) informs me, "DK you're not geared enough."

    I tell her not to worry and my friend who queued with me tells her that I can totally hold my own (and in fact I'd cleared this instance previously). She insists I'm just not geared enough even if the LFG system let me queue for HoR.

    The rest of the group just wants to get going at this point, so they tell her to go with it and see what happens. They start the intro, but when time comes for the pulls she refuses to swap specs, "I'm not healing under-geared dps!" The pulls start, we all die. Now the group is pissed at her and demanding she pay for their repair bills.

    I'm not usually the hot-headed sort, so I just told her, "it's simple, if you don't want to play your part, you can leave or we can kick you." She said, "I'll just stick around until you do." 5 seconds later she's kicked and we got a very good sport of a Paladin healer (awful instance to heal as a Paladin in the first waves).

    We clear the instance lickity split, even missed the high-speed achievement on the final gauntlet by 3 seconds. I was #1 on dmg/DPS at about 4.2k average overall.

    GearScore is not a measure of player skill. True story. =)

    Really wish I could've linked her damage meters so maybe she could've learned to loosen up...
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #2
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    Ah yet another story that shotguns a spray of holes into the theory that Gearscore is awesome and whatnot. Thanks for sharing! Let's hope this doesn't devolve into another debate. Personally I'd like to hear some more stories like this, especially if they're rather funny.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  3. #3
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    Gearscore is fun and all for measuring gear level, and gear can dictate a certain cap on your performance.

    I would contend of course that *most* of the player base don't reach that cap, and many who do not still do better than you might expect from that level of gear, depending on class/spec.

    It's downright foolish to dismiss a player without seeing how they play first, especially in a random pug.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
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    very true. Although in this day and age of WoW everyone seems to want to move so fast that stuff like gearscore and link achieves takes hold and it's difficult to get people to let go. So odds are we'll be finding people who will be whining like that for a long time to come, Satorri. At least the issue worked out in your favor. They could have instantly done a kick vote on you and cited gear for their logic.

    Although I do wonder...for those of us who deal with this kinda stuff, what do you do to deal with your stress/irritation from it? Personally if I was a little bit bolder, every time someone whined about gearscore or something to me I'd finish what I was doing with them, then promptly run off and do something crazy to the point that people would question my sanity. (it's a habit from my old GM. He liked to Rogue Tank and do Heroics without healers and stuff like that) If I can do that stuff, then I know that gear really does not equal player performance.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  5. #5
    Everything has been about speeding things up because players want things faster…

    Instances changed from multi hour sorties in which a challenging timed run was close to an hour (Timed Stratholme) to shorter but still healthy timed instances (Shadow Lab and Botanica come to mind here) in which a 30 minute instance like Black Morass became nice due to it’s brevity, to now where 16 minute instances are too slow, and the vast majority of people’s biggest complaints involve an instance nerfed almost as many times as Ret Paladin burst damage, and an instance with six minutes of talking before the actual fighting starts and is STILL finished in less than 30 minutes.

    Changing people’s requirements from inspecting everyone in your group, to checking them on Armory, to linking achievements to a mere mouse over from Gearscore is only in the same grain.

    The popularity of Gearscore, and an eventual Better version that will be its eventual successor (It will happen eventually, possibly including achievements or gems/enchants, etc) is only a symptom of the player base wanting things quicker and with less “hassle.” Every time we complain that Oculus takes more than 25 minutes to clear, or that Arthas needs to shut the hell up in Culling of Stratholme to get on with the killing, or that Trial of the Champion, already a 10 minute instance with 2 minutes of talking, was still taking too long, then we need to stop and look at it and then realize that it is exactly this behavior that is pushing forth these mods and this streamlining and generalizations.

    Why spend the time to armory and inspect someone when you could be in and mostly done an instance before even getting a full look at everyone, but have a mod that in a second gives a generalization of someones gear and their characters potential? Why spend 17 minutes in an instance that you can do in 14? What difference if those 3 minutes are caused by NPCs talking or a player doing less damage than another could be or you spending those 3 minutes researching each party member to see if they have a general understanding of their class? Those are the questions that cause Gearscore to flourish.

  6. #6
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    Gear score or other rating systems like wow-heroes just always need to be taken into proper perspective. That's all it really comes down to. The problem is most people simply don't know how and more importantly, refuse to learn. These are vital systems for a raid leader in general, however the people who have the skills of a raid leader are few and far between.

    I've had people apply to join my 25 man Icecrown Citadel raid, who wow-heroes rated as undergeared for 10 man Naxxramas. It was a pretty easy decision on my part to decline those applications. These systems do have their uses, if they are used correctly. Sometimes it is as clear as night and day like this was. Someone not prepared for tier 7 is not going to survive tier 10. Other times it's not so clear. Item level 200 is heroic item level, you don't need to be using 10 pieces of gear from ToGC in order to run a heroic. You may struggle more than the person sporting the high end gear, but there is a difference between struggling and being undergeared.

  7. #7
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    Well, I can understand that, and from a raid perspective, it's fairly reasonable to say if you're sporting heroic gear I won't take you into ICC until you've caught up.

    But then, my avg ilvl would put me in line for Naxx25 and Uld10 as a next step and I've out-dps'd people in ToC25 avg gear.

    I can't touch the cultural obsession with instant gratification, but it is sufficient to say that gear level isn't as much a limiter as people might think, not enough to dismiss a player without consideration. For a raid team it may be easy, though not in your best interest (as imagine a great player once they get the fantastic gear?). For random 5-mans it's just silly an unnecessary to try and second-guess group member values based on a numerical sum of the level of the gear.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
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    I agree it is probably inappropriate in a heroic. I use heroics to gauge where people are at, don't particularly need heroics other than the daily for Frost emblems. No matter how good your application to a raid is, it doesn't help as much as actually grouping with the raid leader. An impression, good or bad, is far more valuable than a number. It all comes down the the individual. Most people don't know what they are doing, they don't have the necessary leadership skills. How do you actually interpret the data.

    I hope you luck out and get a random group with that guy again, and he rolls DPS that time. Beat him in his main spec. Recount doesn't care about your gear. Maybe that's just my evil nature though... :P

  9. #9
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    Having grouped with an estimated 4,000+ people since launch (I've played this game a lot but have rarely been in a guild), I'm actually a huge fan of GearScore.

    Every so often you'll get someone who is awesome despite their gear. But 95% of the time, people perform right about where their GearScore would guess that they would.

    And by Satorri's own admission (because he is a good player) he'll be wearing blue gear for a very very short period of time.

  10. #10
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    Gearscore isn't a magic wand, this is not news. But reading your story, I didn't see anything much to do with gearscore; I saw a shadow priest, queueing as healer to get in faster, panicking when something hard came up and looking for an excuse to bail. It's a nice pug anecdote but I doubt the gearscore addon was really the issue.

  11. #11
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    What's gearscore? My perky pug is adorable. I have named him Pugsly...... Pugsly the perky pug!

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  12. #12
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    I hate GearsScore with a passion. I've up and left multiple groups once they started worrying about GearScore. The worst yet watching a poor Hunter being told that a DPS with a GS of 3000 should be doing X.XK DPS and to pick it up. He wasnt doing bad, he was middle of the road, we were killing things and it was going smooth until the Healer decided that he wasnt pulling what his GS should pull.

    I explained to the healer that GS doesnt tell you squat, it doesnt know the class, spec, glyphs or rotation and that those things can make a huge diff in DPS. I told her that earlier that day, I was running a DW UnHoly build and doing much less damage because I was not glyphed correctly and was experimenting with the rotation. When I moved back to my more familiar Blood, my DPS obviously increased considerably.

    she insisted GS was an accurate indication of what DPS someone should be putting out, regardless of class, spec or player.

    She bickered about it right up until the tank vote kicked her before the final boss and we 4 manned it without a healer. Pallies are OP!

  13. #13
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    Warwench..... you have failed to comment about Inaara's Perky Pug, Pugsly.......

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  14. #14
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    Here's a slight bend, on the whole gearscore mentality.

    Heroic HOL--Had a GS 240-rated pally tank, me in Arms spec=225, tree healer=223, and two DPS, both at barely 200ish, obviously barely on the edge of Heroic-ableness.

    The tank starts off by saying something like, "Try to keep up, everyone." Then, he proceeds to rock on, at a very good clip. So fast, actually, that no one has time to even pick up the small loot, from the mobs, before he's off to the next pull. I'm keeping up with him, but the healer starts having mana problems, since the other dps are so hurried, they're simply spamming their aoes, drawing the mobs that the tank just leaves behind, in his personal quest to beat some stopwatch in his head.

    Well, we get to the place where tank draws all the fire mobs to the far steps, and we all follow behind. The healer follows just a tad too closely, and aggros three of the mobs, at the halfway point. I immediately start whacking on them, to draw them off, and drag them to the tank. I pop all my trinkets, and go into overdrive, because the tank does nothing to taunt. At the end, when all the mobs are exploding, only the tank and I are left standing. I'm typing something like, "Wtf, taunt or something, will you?" But, he's all, "Plate-wearers, ftw! Gimme a high-five!"

    I am astonished, as one of the dps simply quits, the healer is running back, with the other dps, and the tank starts pulling the next group! I'm at less than 5% health, by the time the healer gets there, and he's had to stealth past the previous mobs that weren't cleared. Anyway, he saves us, and I'm typing, "Thank you, for the heals."

    The healer, who is very pissed, now, tells the tank to slow down, and do it right. Tank pays no heed, at all.

    Well, you'all get the picture. After another wipe, in the long hallway with all the iron dwarves, and giant pats, where the tank just decides to go right down the middle, aggroing three groups at once...(god, I hate those little dwarves, who whirlwind!)

    Yeah, I'm still wondering why I stuck with it, myself...

    I don't care what this guy's gear level was...he was either drunk, a terrible tank, or just being an ass...maybe all three.

    On the same day, I did HOL, in regular mode, with a group that was level 79, and just 80, with a tank who'd never been in there, and said so, at the start. He even asked me if I'd spec in my tank gear, instead of him. I told him I didn't pug, as a tank, but I'd do what I could to help him through the strats of the place, and asked the group if they'd let us do it slowly, for once. They were all good with it, thank God.

    We got through the instance, with only one wipe (hunter pet aggro), but it was a very fun, and gratifying run, because I got to help a new tank, and "be the hero", at the same time.

    I get the "speed run" thing, I really do...it's a rush, but only if it's done well, and with respect to all the members of the group. This is part of the "situational awareness" that is the most important skill a tank can have, whether playing in uber gear, or not.
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  15. #15
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    True Story: I took my newly minted Priest into Naxx10 a month ago (pre-3.3), and two healed the instance. My gear was so bad I received *8* upgrades during the course of the event. Oh, and I didn't die once, since I can in fact dance like I want to (and leave your friends behind).

    True Story: I took my then 3800 GS Holy Priest into ToC10 last week, and walked out with a 4200. I did do less healing than the other two (Resto Shaman, Resto Druid) healers since I was on raid duty, but we one shot every boss and I even won the heailng charts (back in Burning Crusade, this was the "gearscore" of its time with recount) on Twins.

    I know when I put together a pug for regular ToC10, I don't care about gearscore. I do care about "do you know the fights with a relative degree of confidence", but I don't ask for achievements. I actually have conversations with people. I like my method the best.

    I do think gearscore has some validity when you're putting together a ToGC run though, or even Icecrown (for now). Someone with a 3800 gs just isn't capable of pulling 5500 dps sustained, or have the mana to continue to heal, or the health to tank these events. That said, yes, people do use it as a crutch too much because they want overgeared, already-achieved people for quick and easy runs.

  16. #16
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    I feel ya, this happens to me sometimes when I queue up in my block gear (28k-ish health unbuffed) and people will immediately ask if im in DPS gear, why I have naxx epics etc.

    Gearscore means shit.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylae View Post
    Having grouped with an estimated 4,000+ people since launch (I've played this game a lot but have rarely been in a guild), I'm actually a huge fan of GearScore.

    Every so often you'll get someone who is awesome despite their gear. But 95% of the time, people perform right about where their GearScore would guess that they would.

    And by Satorri's own admission (because he is a good player) he'll be wearing blue gear for a very very short period of time.
    Spot on assessment.

    Gear Score in most cases has been a suitable method of determining what a player is capable of.

    I'm not naive enough to think that every play with a low gear score is as good as Satorri.

    You can sometimes look at a persons achievements and how they are gemming and enchanting to make a judgement call if they know what they are doing.

    Gearscore in my mind is no different than the days when you asked to meet up with someone to inspect their gear before they got an invite. Now a days it's just less personal and quicker to get rejected

  18. #18
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    Hmmm.

    Recently in my new casual guild I've been doing a little Elemental dpsing. In mostly Resto MP5 gear, including two pieces of healing T9. I probably only have 9% hit, including both my talents and racial. My crit is only around 25%. And I'm not experienced at DPS.

    I'm top DPS every time, beating dedicated DPS players in superior gear. And I don't even AoE bomb things - I cast Chain Lightning from time to time, but mostly I single target focus. And I Hex and Wind Shear and cast heals when required.

    I'm only hitting about 2.8k DPS, but its more then most others seem to manage. Though, thankfully, no-one ever made an issue about my gear.

  19. #19
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    Make sure to pick up your Master Builder's Shirt - Item - World of Warcraft . Best gear score shirt in the game! Only nubs run around with Antiseptic-Soaked Dressing - Item - World of Warcraft . I mean, how will people KNOW you know your class and how to play if you wouldn't even take the time to hit up BRD to get the best shirt?

    GearScore = Ability to pick up gear that has a higher score than what they currently have.

    That's it. Period. Any inference beyond that is purely hypothetical and speculative. I would have missed out on several quality players in my guild if I would have dismissed them on the basis of GearScore.



  20. #20
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    Wait, you mean Gear Score doesn't equal my player skill? So those 245-cloth bracers I ninja'd from that caster aren't going to do my DK any good? Spell Power is real good for Blood spec, isn't it?

    Joking aside, while I don't put much stock into gearscore, I do agree that it can be used intelligently, since although player skill is far more important, as Satorri mentioned a skilled player WITH good gear is going to be better than a skilled player with poor gear. In my opinion, the biggest problem with gearscore used as a metric of player capability is that items do not necessarily get better with a higher item level... 200-ilvl trinkets that are still BiS being one case in point. As long as that's the case, using gearscore as your standard of measurement is going to be rather inherently flawed.

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