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Thread: Eyonix on Disc priests

  1. #1
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    Eyonix on Disc priests

    It's definitely one of the strong points of the Discipline tree to be able to use shields for absorption, but players shouldn't view shields as the answer to every problem encountered. Discipline priests are still priests and have many other spells available to them. The absorbs aren't meant to totally replace the need to heal completely, and one shouldn't compare the amount a Discipline priest can absorb to the amount another healing class (or holy priest) can heal. Power Word: Shield is very powerful, not just due to its absorption effect but also due to the many benefits gained -- primarily through various talents.

    Greater Heal, Flash Heal and even Penance should still be cast as needed.

    In raids, we also think that far too many players want to put the healing classes into two "big buckets" -- tank healers (Holy paladin & Discipline priest), and raid healers (Holy priests, Restoration shaman & druids).

    We simply do not think that's granular enough.

    Discipline priests aren't supposed to be Holy paladins that rely exclusively on their absorptions instead of their heals any more than hunters aren't supposed to be rogues who simply stand at range.

    We think Discipline priests are in a pretty good place at the moment.

    As a side note, one thing we'd like to do is make changes to the game that allow healing meters to be able to properly identify absorptions.

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    I like how he says that, and yet they are moving hunters to a more energy like resource system.

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    Why eyonix isn't totally correct?

    Flash heal, Prayer of healing, prayer of mending and penance are the main stay of disc priests beyond power word: shield. Aside from flash heal and prayer of healing the rest of the spell arsenal is on a cooldown and prayer of healing is situational at best.
    Leaving disc priests with flash heal which simply leaves disc priests debating casting a likely overhealed flash heal on the tank or a shield on a raid member. The choice is obvious 90% of the time. The other priest spells are not nearly needed or enhanced enough by the disc spec to be useful or worth casting.


    The absorbs aren't meant to totally replace the need to heal completely, and one shouldn't compare the amount a Discipline priest can absorb to the amount another healing class (or holy priest) can heal. Power Word: Shield is very powerful, not just due to its absorption effect but also due to the many benefits gained -- primarily through various talents.
    This is incorrect I doubt borrowed time is used as much as this is implying nor is it as important as the absorb from power word: shield but yes we can't compare because a shield will always absorb damage before it hits.

    Greater Heal, Flash Heal and even Penance should still be cast as needed.
    Greater heal hasn't been on most priests action bars since well, wrath. Yes a large majority of the population spec for faster greater heals but it usually ends up being 1% of their spell useage. Greater heal was too big that is why it was downranked to be a much more useful spell. In a sense Greater heal is too bulky, slow and ineffective oh and not necessary.


    We think Discipline priests are in a pretty good place at the moment.

    As a side note, one thing we'd like to do is make changes to the game that allow healing meters to be able to properly identify absorptions.
    I think adjusting this will show how heavily absorbs are being used and how badly the disc priest situation actually is. Since while shielding is good it is way too overused and has become akin to rank 2 heal.

    Yes disc priests are capable of performing in a raid situation, yes disc priests are fine however the role is limited, raid healing as such is limited and tank healing is limited.

    Raid healing:

    You shield people have a fairly fast group heal due to Borrowed time and throw prayer of mending every cooldown while flashing where necessary (e.g. a target has weakened soul still). Sadly grace is a single target effect.

    Tank healing:

    I know tankhealing has been pigeoned to holy paladins and that beacon is way out of proportion. I also know I won't be playing in cataclysm simply due to time constraints (3rd year uni student).

    Disc lacks the umph there isn't a big reason to switch to greater heal or to invest in it. The difference between flash efficiency and effectiveness there isn't much reason to talent or use it. I've tried you may or may not believe it but I have! It simply wasn't a benefit or an extreme gain.

    Beyond this if you are tank healing switching out does mean losing grace stacks potentialy and that is the other big flaw.

    Our talents presume that flash and power word shield are our best spells and they are! But as priests comparing to priests holy is much more rounded off although not without flaws with regards to tank healing.

    I feel the problem with talents could be more easily resolved once the problem of tank healing has been addressed and reworked quite simply the pally heals all isn't something i'd like to see more of although I know it won't be fixed until cataclysm.

    Once you properly identify absorbs you will realise what we've known for months and what you have known but don't want to share with us. That disc priests are dependant on 60-80% of their throughput on power word: shield and that sticking to a single target like a tank reduces the usefulness of this to 20%~ e.g. a disc priest shielding players on algalon will do twice as much in terms of healing done compared to a disc priest who sticks solely on the tank. I am not saying that one is more important than the other but I am saying that is not balanced or correct.

    Im sure I will come back to this in years to come and think wtf was I writing here heck probably a few months.

    I like the state of disc priests currently I think the spec is very enjoyable however relying so heavily on absorbtion feels wrong and having fairly low scaling and lesser reliance on stats that gear is loaded with is going to put disc priests where shadow priests were for ages.

    Although with healers there's no real need to compare as strictly as you do dps because the mechanic is very much different. If anything the problem becomes one of measuring healing because you can't easily dismiss a healer's performance based on meters. It isn't as simple as that with alot of players.

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    It still confuses me when I see developers talk about GH as a used spell. You can argue that it can be used, or that they want it to be used, but the simple fact is a vast majority of the priest community has put it on the shelf.

    The center piece of disc healing is absorbs. If a disc priest is put on a single tank target, he can do well. The problem is that a holy paladin can do just as well on two tank targets. Therefore, the best niche for a disc priest is using absorbs to their maximum benefit, applying PW:S to those targets who need it most, while using tools like Flash, ProM, PoH, & Penance when applicable. DBS & Anub(H) are perfect examples of this.

    I generally agree that Disc is in a good place right now. I personally would prefer them to re-work Grace, incorporate a multi-target or ground based absorb, and add a more PvE functional PS glyph before "fixing" the meters, but that's just me.



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    I was actually reading that thread after the blue post. I feel bad for the devs that have to sort through that manure to find the quality posts.

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    That's why they should just read TankSpot.



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    I'd be surprised if they didn't.

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    They do. Ghostcrawler refers to Tankspot at times. And it would be shocking if it wasn't something they checked often, as it is an official fansite, and a place where a lot of real information can be found beyond the usual detritus found on the official forums.

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    ...but players shouldn't view shields as the answer to every problem encountered...
    Ok not every problem but raid encounter designs seem to be favoring shields a lot. Heroic Gormok25, Saurfang come to mind. Our raid doesnt have any disc priests and we're sorely feeling it. Shield is simply doing a lot more that raw healing on such fights and is a much bigger life saver.

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    Apologies, if I'm slightly off-topic, but I keep running into people who insist that PW:S is a bad thing to do, on a Pally tank, because of possible mana starvation, from not getting hit, due to absorption. I was under the impression that this was something that had been "fixed", in one of the earlier version updates. Is this not true? I'm speaking more in terms of 5-man Heroics, not of higher level raids...
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

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    If your tank and healer are very well geared, then PW:S and DA can mana starve a pally tank in a 5man group. Absorbs do not count towards SA. All the other mechanics, however, work fine.

    The "fix" you mention was with warriors and druids with rage. Absorbed damage, as of 3.1, counts the same as regularly taken damage for rage generation.

    The pally issue is ONLY an issue if your paladin tank and your disc healer drastically overgear the content. Think T9.5 tank & healer in heroic nexus. In any relevant content, that shield or DA will be a blip on the damage done to the tank.

    Now, if your paladin tank and your disc healer are appropriately geared for heroic 5mans, the PW:S shouldn't really cause an issue.



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    Ok, yes, I was aware of the fix to the warrior's rage, as that's my main, but thank you, for the info, on the pally...I figured it wasn't an issue, in raiding, due to other mechanics, buffs, or just plain ramped up damage. I guess I'll have to watch it, if I'm healing an over-geared pally in the random heroics. I haven't had one complain, but there seems to be quite enough of a general lack of communication in these randoms, as it is...

    So, if I'm Disc healing a highly-geared pally in Heroics, I should not shield him, until sometime after the pull? Or, don't shield him and simply use heals, and shield someone else, like the melee dps?

    Sorry for the noobish questions, but this is important, to me, so I beg your indulgence!

    ;>)
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Ok, yes, I was aware of the fix to the warrior's rage, as that's my main, but thank you, for the info, on the pally...I figured it wasn't an issue, in raiding, due to other mechanics, buffs, or just plain ramped up damage. I guess I'll have to watch it, if I'm healing an over-geared pally in the random heroics. I haven't had one complain, but there seems to be quite enough of a general lack of communication in these randoms, as it is...

    So, if I'm Disc healing a highly-geared pally in Heroics, I should not shield him, until sometime after the pull? Or, don't shield him and simply use heals, and shield someone else, like the melee dps?

    Sorry for the noobish questions, but this is important, to me, so I beg your indulgence!

    ;>)
    For 5 mans its better to just keep shields on everyone else and just straight heal the paladin. If, for some reason, damage on the tank is high you can shield him then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus View Post
    It still confuses me when I see developers talk about GH as a used spell. You can argue that it can be used, or that they want it to be used, but the simple fact is a vast majority of the priest community has put it on the shelf.
    But is that the right choice or merely a conventional wisdom thing?

    I'm looking at the healing parse of a Koralon-10 fight I two-healed with a holy priestess a few weeks ago. Greater Heal was the biggest contributor to her healing, followed by Prayer of Healing, Prayer of Mending, and Circle of Healing. Flash Heal was somewhere behind Renew.

    There are two factors, in my opinion, that have made priests use Greater Heal much less (to an extent, the same applies to the underuse of Healing Wave by shamans).

    One is the "nobody ever gots fired for buying IBM/Microsoft" effect. Fast, small heals are the safe choice. Nobody will be able to point at a death log and say that the tank died because she wasn't healed fast enough. With Flash Heal/Lesser Healing Wave you can always say that you just couldn't spam your heals faster. It's the CYA approach to healing, but not necessarily the best one in the hand of a player who knows what she is doing.

    The other is that theorycraft is too much dominated by 25-player raid environments, and that is just a completely different situation where healing is concerned. Since you can't stack as many healers in a 10-player raid, the size of heals with respect to tank health and incoming tank damage is generally MUCH more reasonable (outside of really nasty stuff, such as heroic Gormok). As I've been accumulating actual raiding experience again, I've come to question a lot of the conventional wisdom both with respect to tanking and healing, at least for 10-player raids, and wouldn't be surprised if the 25-player situation isn't as clearcut as it's made out to be.

    For what it's worth, I also heartily agree with Eyonix's note that just putting healers in either the "tank healer" or "raid healer" bucket is too coarse a model.
    Last edited by Roana; 12-24-2009 at 09:00 PM.

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    Just to clarify, are you saying that because a priest used GHeal more then other spells it isn't that bad to use on content that is, by design, easy to do? Because to me it just sounds like the priest used GHeal over *ANY* spell or simply spamming it.

    ...and yes 10 player raids are very different then 25 player raids. There are many reasons for it some of which include a larger heal squad, better access to buffs and a larger damage scale being done. GHeal really falls short unless it is hasted in 25 mans because you do not simply have the time to cast it. The reason flash is mainly used is because you get a burst of healing quicker which is better for your targets survivability. The healing amount gained from GHeal will more then likely be overkill (even your flash will probably over heal with the amount of healing raid healers do).

    In a vacuum GHeal is fine. Start to add other healers and other healing effects and it becomes weaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amamaeth View Post
    Just to clarify, are you saying that because a priest used GHeal more then other spells it isn't that bad to use on content that is, by design, easy to do? Because to me it just sounds like the priest used GHeal over *ANY* spell or simply spamming it.
    Labels such as "easy" or "serious business" matter little to me. I'm in the business of analysis.

    Numerically, the Koralan fight required 9k HPS to heal, with the priestess doing 5k HPS and me (resto shaman) doing 4k HPS. When we did ToGC 10 Northrend Beasts later that week for the first time, we had 8k HPS split between three healers (3k HPS holy paladin, 2.5k HPS resto shaman, 2.5k HPS holy priest). The difference in complexity comes from the fact that Koralon is a tank-and-spank fight, whereas Northrend Beasts have significant RNG and reactive elements. The healing load on Koralon, however, was generally higher (and significantly higher on a per-healer basis), the exception being Gormok after a few Rising Angers. If you check out www.worldoflogs.com, you'll find comparable numbers; what we had wasn't outlandish.

    FYI, the priestess used Greater Heal more than any spell (primarily for tank healing), but wasn't spamming it and in the end it made up less than 1/3 of her healing, since a significant portion of her time was taken up with multi-target heals (Prayer of Mending, Prayer of Healing, Circle of Healing, Binding Heal) to compensate for Burning Breath damage.

    The appropriateness of healing strategies depends not on how "serious business" the fight is, but on the damage patterns that occur and your raid composition.

    ...and yes 10 player raids are very different then 25 player raids. There are many reasons for it some of which include a larger heal squad, better access to buffs and a larger damage scale being done.
    I would, at the moment, say that the 25-player healing model is broken beyond repair (Blizzard apparently agrees, considering the total revamp they plan for Cataclysm). I am seeing hardmode kills on www.worldoflogs.com with a raw healing : effective healing ratio of 5 : 1 or even 6 : 1. That isn't healing anymore, that is carpet bombing.

    Greater Heal isn't useful anymore in such a scenario, because it WILL be sniped. You're not concerned about beating the mob to the punch anymore, but other healers (because otherwise your heals feel wasted). For an obvious example, the cast time of Bonespike Graveyard will give you three full seconds during which Lord Marrowgar will not melee or use Saber Lash, and I venture that most priests still will not use Greater Heal during that moment of reprieve, even if it were the perfect choice to patch up a tank.

    That is not to say that 10-player healing is currently in all that good a place, either, but it still leaves considerably more room for discretion, judgement calls, and coordination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    Labels such as "easy" or "serious business" matter little to me. I'm in the business of analysis.

    Numerically, the Koralan fight required 9k HPS to heal, with the priestess doing 5k HPS and me (resto shaman) doing 4k HPS. When we did ToGC 10 Northrend Beasts later that week for the first time, we had 8k HPS split between three healers (3k HPS holy paladin, 2.5k HPS resto shaman, 2.5k HPS holy priest). The difference in complexity comes from the fact that Koralon is a tank-and-spank fight, whereas Northrend Beasts have significant RNG and reactive elements. The healing load on Koralon, however, was generally higher (and significantly higher on a per-healer basis), the exception being Gormok after a few Rising Angers. If you check out www.worldoflogs.com, you'll find comparable numbers; what we had wasn't outlandish.

    FYI, the priestess used Greater Heal more than any spell (primarily for tank healing), but wasn't spamming it and in the end it made up less than 1/3 of her healing, since a significant portion of her time was taken up with multi-target heals (Prayer of Mending, Prayer of Healing, Circle of Healing, Binding Heal) to compensate for Burning Breath damage.
    Yeah, I looked at world of logs. Our attempts at NRB 25H had significantly more HPS done then on koralon 25. I honestly don't know what you are looking at.

    I fail to see the point in the information you are presenting. First you provided no link to a wol so we can see how many times said spell was cast, or how much the spell actually contributed to effective healing. It also doesn't and wouldn't provide us with the information of how much better the priest would have been using flash. I bring up the triviality of the content because after the burning breath there's very little dange to the raid itself unless people stand in fire. You have plenty of time to cast a stupidly long cast spell. Doing that in a harder instance, say NRB, could result in your raid members dying.

    We don't use flash because it's efficient. We use it because it gets healing out faster.

    The appropriateness of healing strategies depends not on how "serious business" the fight is, but on the damage patterns that occur and your raid composition.



    I would, at the moment, say that the 25-player healing model is broken beyond repair (Blizzard apparently agrees, considering the total revamp they plan for Cataclysm). I am seeing hardmode kills on www.worldoflogs.com with a raw healing : effective healing ratio of 5 : 1 or even 6 : 1. That isn't healing anymore, that is carpet bombing.

    Greater Heal isn't useful anymore in such a scenario, because it WILL be sniped. You're not concerned about beating the mob to the punch anymore, but other healers (because otherwise your heals feel wasted). For an obvious example, the cast time of Bonespike Graveyard will give you three full seconds during which Lord Marrowgar will not melee or use Saber Lash, and I venture that most priests still will not use Greater Heal during that moment of reprieve, even if it were the perfect choice to patch up a tank.

    That is not to say that 10-player healing is currently in all that good a place, either, but it still leaves considerably more room for discretion, judgement calls, and coordination.
    10 player healing, if anything, is broken. You really can't judge anything in a 10 player raid instance because the difficulty is lower then on 25 man. If you have any piece of toc 25 gear, then you already are overgeared for icc10. As a result less healing needs to be done, there's less stress for immediate reactions and it's overall much easier and forgiving. If you want to talk balance, you have to look into 25 mans where it is far less forgiving.

    It's also not about heal sniping. It's about surviving. When your tank can take a saber lash then a melee hit and be dead you need to know you can get a heal in before the melee hit. When you know you need to heal several people you need to know your heal on the next target will come in time. It's not about efficienicy, it's about effectiveness.

    The healing GHeal gives is not significant enough in efficency to justify it's cast time. It is that simple. On paper it might look good, but there are so many fators that aren't calculable enough to provide a clear view of why GHeal is bad. So in short, no it isn't good unless its hastened. Most good priest don't use it at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amamaeth View Post
    Yeah, I looked at world of logs. Our attempts at NRB 25H had significantly more HPS done then on koralon 25. I honestly don't know what you are looking at.
    The 10-player version, as I very explicitly wrote. If you look at the 25-player versions, you will obviously see different things. But I never talked about the 25-player version.

    I fail to see the point in the information you are presenting. First you provided no link to a wol so we can see how many times said spell was cast, or how much the spell actually contributed to effective healing.
    I can't; I still had it saved in Skada, but never bothered uploading it. It's one data point, and I meant it to illustrate my point, not to prove it.

    It also doesn't and wouldn't provide us with the information of how much better the priest would have been using flash. I bring up the triviality of the content because after the burning breath there's very little dange to the raid itself unless people stand in fire. You have plenty of time to cast a stupidly long cast spell. Doing that in a harder instance, say NRB, could result in your raid members dying.
    ToGC 10 Northrend Beasts has only a short period of very spiky damage, and that's when Gormok starts stacking Rising Anger. As I said, and as worldoflogs.com demonstrates, the HPS needed is actually lower than for Koralon-10.

    We don't use flash because it's efficient. We use it because it gets healing out faster.
    Yes, I know that. I've never said otherwise. Fast heals and haste rating are a staple of 25-player raids.

    10 player healing, if anything, is broken. You really can't judge anything in a 10 player raid instance because the difficulty is lower then on 25 man.
    When I mean broken, I mean that there are too few decision points to make healing meaningful. The margin of error is lower in 25-player raids, but a low margin of error does not result in an interesting healing model all by itself -- in the case of WoW 25-player raids, it just makes healing more spammy, not more complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    When I mean broken, I mean that there are too few decision points to make healing meaningful. The margin of error is lower in 25-player raids, but a low margin of error does not result in an interesting healing model all by itself -- in the case of WoW 25-player raids, it just makes healing more spammy, not more complex.
    I feel quite the opposite about margin of error, especially if you are 2-healing 10 men raids. Then really the 10 mens become more interesting for every healing class. Where in a 25 men you would have a set role: tankhealer raidhealer, in a 10 men, 2 healing a place you couldn't think in that box anymore. This is true in To(G)C 10 ICC 10 and was true in Karazhan and ZA. 2 Healing a 10 men forced me to use much more of my arsenal then 25 men.

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