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Thread: Is it bad have too much Def?

  1. #1
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    Is it bad have too much Def?

    Im at 553 and wanting more but are there any cons of doing so? And pros? Will I continue to get more dodge by adding to my Def rating?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    There is nothing wrong with getting more def than what is required for uncritable. However its not something to gem for if thats what you are wanting to do (unless you are trying to assemble an unhittable set).

    Pros: Gain avoidance/mitigation

    Cons: loose effective health

    I am sure there are more pros and cons, but I am at work and dont really have the time to sit and think about all of them.

    My suggestion is dont worry too much about geming for it but if you get an upgrade with more def on it dont be concerned that it has the extra, wont hurt anything. If you are wanting to assemble an unhittable set though I would suggest getting as much block gear as you can find and gem everything defense other than one or two gems to make your meta active.

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/4...ar-glance.html (Here is a gear list with good suggestions on gear and gemming for each type of set)

    *edited for link*

  3. #3
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    as a general rule after the d cap its not start to actively seek def over other stats. Right now I have anywhere from 587 to 601 def and have no gems and as few enchants with def as possible. yes that adds up to a small amount of avoidance but Its not worth sacrificing for straight avoidance gemming
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  4. #4
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    I'm being nitpicky, but you don't actually lose effective health with more defense, you just *may* be using resources for defense instead of effective health.

    If you are over the uncrittable point, and don't have any defense gems or enchants, there's nothing to worry about whatsoever, it's just a nice bonus.
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  5. #5
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    Thanks for the info. The reason I was asking is because I guess you could say Im trying to get, as Stalswarrior put it, a "unhittable" set, or close to it as possible. Im a DK that spec'd unholy with boneshield and for me (remember I said me =D ) it has worked out well in terms of grabbing, holding aggro, taking less damage.

    I've grabbed JC so I can get the red +34 Dodge gems, blue +51 stam , and the yellow +34 Def gems.

    So I guess with that, would an unhittable set be possible, worth it? Is it true when ppl say that an unhittable toon may grab less aggro? I would think just the opposite, you know, that would really piss the mob/boss off. lol

    I'll look the forums when time permits, but any ideas on the caps to have an unhittable toon, if possible.

    Thanks

  6. #6
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    Afaik, due to the Diminishing Returns on Parry/Dodge/Miss, unhittable is not something a DK can achieve with current gear.

    The only classes I know that have succesfully attained unhittability are Warriors & Paladins because Block Chance has no DR. Although this is ofcourse not a genuine unhittability as they can still get hit, but never for the full amount.
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  7. #7
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    Yeah I am pretty sure DKs can not reach uncrittable because they don't have block to add to the equation. And for all bosses besides Saurfang and Gunship Captain with your Jewel Crafting gems it's worth just going 3 51 stamina gems. Trying to reach unhittable for a DK would mean only avoidance and if you aren't on the two fights I listed above it isn't going to be ideal compared to EH or N-EH.

    I will use Gormok as an example, he will kill you with a melee, Impale, bleed combo, the only attack avoidable is the melee, by stacking avoidance you are relying on RNG too much in that situation. Say you trade off quite a bit of EH for avoidance in that situation, when the melee hits which will happen eventually you will get insta-gimped by the Impale Bleed Combo. But defense is always helpful I just wouldn't trade EH for defense for the majority of encounters.
    Last edited by krc; 12-22-2009 at 09:03 AM.

  8. #8
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    It is very bad to have too much def. A few points over isnt bad, but never gem for it and if you take too much heavy def gear you are sacrificing other stats that will give you more effective health.

    Too much def. i.e. > 575 is an opportunity cost that is not worth paying.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by greendragonempire View Post
    It is very bad to have too much def. A few points over isnt bad, but never gem for it and if you take too much heavy def gear you are sacrificing other stats that will give you more effective health.

    Too much def. i.e. > 575 is an opportunity cost that is not worth paying.
    No. It isn't automatically bad to have "too much" defense. Sometimes you get what the gear gives you. There is no need to gem/enchant for it unless you don't have at least 540.

    You aren't always paying any opportunity cost to get that extra defense. Sometimes it simply comes on the upgrades that drop for you (or are available via crafting/badges).

  10. #10
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    Defense is sort of like Hit. There's this generally accepted cap, after which it becomes significantly less valuable than it was before (going from absolutely necessary to almost hardly useful). There is another, harder cap, after which it pretty much becomes worthless, but the chances of you even coming close to that cap without putting all of your effort into maximizing your defense value is slim to none.

    Thus extra defense does not hurt, it still has value after the cap and you shouldn't feel like you have to shed it. That said, as many of the bigger names have mentioned thus far. Take a look at your enchants and gems, do you have any defense ones that you used before you had such a nice padding of defense? They can be replaced now. You may come back to using them again later, but for now, if you truly want to eek out as much value as possible, then yes, it would be more beneficial to replace those defense points with other stats. But having extra defense isn't bad. It isn't going to hurt you, it's not a complete waste of a stat.

  11. #11
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    Well, defense is not exactly like hit. Hit has a hard cap, defense does not. =)

    For those who don't know that terminology, a "hard" cap is when the points will have absolutely no effect when more are added. It is possible to be incapable of missing at which point Hit rating will add zero value.

    Defense rating will *always* add value, but after you pass the "cap" where you cease to be crittable, it only adds avoidance.

    What's more, to consider for DKs, even after we cease to get crit reduction from it, we still buff our IBF effectiveness with it. I don't take that as a reason to focus on pumping up your defense, but it sure doesn't hurt.

    (and sadly, no, DKs cannot reach the unhittable point passively, probably not even with procs/CDs)
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  12. #12
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    Well, I take that back then. I simply remember talking to you about a point at which miss chance becomes severely diminished. But, then again, defense will still give dodge and parry and would still give miss. The value would just be lessened even more. I suppose hard cap was a terrible choice to use for that.

    However the likening of hit (mostly for DPS) and defense (for tanks) as far as the soft cap goes, is still apt!

  13. #13
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    As said, there's nothing inherently bad or any waste on getting more defense.

    There's an ideal ratio between the avoidance stats that you can use as a guideline when you can choose what stat to add to your gear, I think it's 2,1 dodge per 1.8 defense per 1 parry?

    Attaining the ideal ratio is practically impossible, so don't go out of your way, but when you can pick wich stat to add, you can look at that ratio and say "hum, I'll get the most from defense instead of dodge here"

  14. #14
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    Ok, more Def after the crit cap isnt bad because it adds to our avoidance, I'll never prob be unhittable because of diminishing returns. So if I leave my Def rating at/around 551 (sorry, not 553 like previous thought) and with my parry rating around 18% and dodge around 25/26% unbuffed, how much higher (gems/enchants) before they're capped and of no use to obtain more of?

    Thanks for all the valuable info, its been useful to me and I hope to pick the brains of you great players again in the future! Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays!

    -HM

  15. #15
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    There is a "hard cap" for avoidance but you will never hit it making it irrelevant, it is always useful but its usefulness decays over time through diminishing returns. Honestly though I wouldn't worry about your avoidance too much and focus mainly on N-EH, enough avoidance will come with gear.
    Last edited by krc; 12-22-2009 at 08:06 PM.

  16. #16
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    It is very bad to have too much def. A few points over isnt bad, but never gem for it and if you take too much heavy def gear you are sacrificing other stats that will give you more effective health.

    Too much def. i.e. > 575 is an opportunity cost that is not worth paying
    I disagree here, infact its very difficult to keep your defense score actively 'low' and floating around the 540 cap.

    There's no real reason not to have as much defense over 540 passively THROUGH GEAR ALONE and not by gemming or enchanting for it; generally higher level gear has higher defense from itemization. You can't avoid it tbh and alot of BIS items have high defense.

    A better piece of advice would be:

    If you are <540 gem for defense.
    If you are == 540 or >540 gem other stats such as stam and avoidance.

    Job done.

  17. #17
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    To be nitpicky, as Satorri says, there are indeed hardcaps on avoidances.

    With that said,
    Quote Originally Posted by Hätemachine View Post
    how much higher (gems/enchants) before they're capped and of no use to obtain more of?
    You'll never hit the caps. Read: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html

    As others have said, there are better things to gem/enchant for than defense after 540. It's not "bad" per se, but there are better uses of those itemisation points for the most part.
    Last edited by Satrina; 12-22-2009 at 08:10 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swam View Post
    as a general rule after the d cap its not start to actively seek def over other stats. Right now I have anywhere from 587 to 601 def and have no gems and as few enchants with def as possible. yes that adds up to a small amount of avoidance but Its not worth sacrificing for straight avoidance gemming
    Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.
    Have you seen the amounts of defense rating tank gear has nowadays?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.
    I use a slow dps weapon main hand, yes I have the def stam enchant for dk's. However it is still one of the better enchants for dual wielding dk's
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