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Thread: Agg's Prot War Tanking Guide

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanthalas View Post
    I agree to pretty much everything here except for the hit stat. TRUE expertise is definitely our priority, but once that is capped, missing with taunt means bad things, you can argue that you can throw vigilance on the MT or OT and have taunt refreshed, but when someone dies in the second or two because your vigilance target hasn't been hit yet, it defeats the point. Missing with abilities means 0 rage and 0 threat and a wasted global, meaning bad things. I would never gem for it but I feel it's good to keep it around 3-5% through personal gear, 2% and below seems a poor choice to me. Imagine AoE tanking where your thunderclaps and shockwaves miss half the mobs, better ask for those tricks and md's or have a reliable OT . And single target wise you better have vigilance in your spec, because imagine having a guild that has dps well over 10-11k+, it would be pretty stressful if you're missing continuously in your rotation meaning wasted globals, then imagine you have a few rogues that want to maximize dps, so they are tricksing other people for the dmg increase, like good rogues should be able to do and get away with, without having those players catch up to the MT's threat. But I guess at the end of the day, it can just be situational or what the player is used to when tanking. And Like I said before, this guide was very helpful and informative, well thought out, I just think hit needs to be more appreciated if you're wanting to tank effectively.
    Again what people are saying in this thread in that situation you can always use the Glyph of Taunt and not need to sacrifice tons of survival to hit.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Devastate has a higher crit rate and thus a slightly higher contribution from Deep Wounds, which makes up a bit of the difference. At the end of the day, they should have very similar damage per execute, with Revenge being much lower in threat due to Devastate's AP-based threat component.
    Higher crit rate?
    Explain plz?

  3. #83
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    Sword and Board buffs devastate crit. Revenge doesn't have much to modify it's crit chance.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanthalas View Post
    I agree to pretty much everything here except for the hit stat. TRUE expertise is definitely our priority, but once that is capped, missing with taunt means bad things, you can argue that you can throw vigilance on the MT or OT and have taunt refreshed, but when someone dies in the second or two because your vigilance target hasn't been hit yet, it defeats the point. Missing with abilities means 0 rage and 0 threat and a wasted global, meaning bad things. I would never gem for it but I feel it's good to keep it around 3-5% through personal gear, 2% and below seems a poor choice to me.
    The highest hit rating I've had in the last 6th months is 121. I did all of ToGC with about 66 hit. In ICC I had absolutely zero threat problems, and glyph of taunt was more than sufficient on fights I needed to taunt, I think I missed maybe once, then just used the vigilance trick and mocking blow and I was fine.
    Imagine AoE tanking where your thunderclaps and shockwaves miss half the mobs, better ask for those tricks and md's or have a reliable OT .
    I've never had any problems AoE tanking with hit values that low, but yes we had an extremely reliable paladin tank as well.

    And single target wise you better have vigilance in your spec, because imagine having a guild that has dps well over 10-11k+, it would be pretty stressful if you're missing continuously in your rotation meaning wasted globals, then imagine you have a few rogues that want to maximize dps, so they are tricksing other people for the dmg increase, like good rogues should be able to do and get away with, without having those players catch up to the MT's threat.
    A few things, first if rogues are tricksing eachother then it nets out to zero extra threat from them, other than the extra damage they do, that is a non issue. We've even had rogues tricks non-rogues for DPS increases and still had no problems. Secondly, I was in a guild that had amazing dps, routinely 10-11k, sometimes higher (our most notable accomplishment imo was US 8th putricide. We were ranked about US 30 at the time I quit raiding), I had next to zero threat issues. Secondly, if you read the spec section I do include vigilance. It is useful not only to quell overactive DPS threat, but in any other ways too.

    But I guess at the end of the day, it can just be situational or what the player is used to when tanking. And Like I said before, this guide was very helpful and informative, well thought out, I just think hit needs to be more appreciated if you're wanting to tank effectively.
    Out of curiosity did you read my foot note number 3 that further explains the hit rating breakdown?

    I stand by my statements that hit is almost completely inconsequential. Gear for survival. As long as you are doing enough threat a "wasted GCD" is completely unimportant. Unlike DPS where they have to constantly squeeze out every last ounce of DPS, Threat is more along the lines of "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you," meaning as long as I am doing more threat than the top DPS (which with these values and the warrior's current threat situation I was averaging about 11k TPS) then there's really no need to get more threat, especially at the sacrifice of survivability.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    The highest hit rating I've had in the last 6th months is 121. I did all of ToGC with about 66 hit. In ICC I had absolutely zero threat problems, and glyph of taunt was more than sufficient on fights I needed to taunt, I think I missed maybe once, then just used the vigilance trick and mocking blow and I was fine.
    Yeah, I completely agree with you for ToGC, #1, it has no trash, unless you count the adds on Anub'Arak which I've tanked all 4 of them with my avoidance set only having about 65 hit. Of course I was the additional cleave spec etc etc, and had Md's and trick's fed into me . But for ToGC, since there is no trash, there wasn't much point in having hit, just had to glyph for taunt if you were an OT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I've never had any problems AoE tanking with hit values that low, but yes we had an extremely reliable paladin tank as well.
    ^ I believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    A few things, first if rogues are tricksing eachother then it nets out to zero extra threat from them, other than the extra damage they do, that is a non issue. We've even had rogues tricks non-rogues for DPS increases and still had no problems. Secondly, I was in a guild that had amazing dps, routinely 10-11k, sometimes higher (our most notable accomplishment imo was US 8th putricide. We were ranked about US 30 at the time I quit raiding), I had next to zero threat issues. Secondly, if you read the spec section I do include vigilance. It is useful not only to quell overactive DPS threat, but in any other ways too.
    I meant when rogues tricks other classes, not other rogues, which yes, if they fed each other the tricks, they would definitely become a net of 0 extra threat. Basically if rogues tricksed the top dps, in which case Salv or other threat drops could be applied so it really isn't an issue, I'm just throwing out possible in-game problems that guilds could have because of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Out of curiosity did you read my foot note number 3 that further explains the hit rating breakdown?
    I'm still looking for it, I actually saw a link in one of the earlier pages to this thread that led to another forum that broke down hit, I'm not sure if that is what you were referring to, but it basically broke down hit and it said to never gem or enchant for hit, of which i still completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I stand by my statements that hit is almost completely inconsequential. Gear for survival. As long as you are doing enough threat a "wasted GCD" is completely unimportant. Unlike DPS where they have to constantly squeeze out every last ounce of DPS, Threat is more along the lines of "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you," meaning as long as I am doing more threat than the top DPS (which with these values and the warrior's current threat situation I was averaging about 11k TPS) then there's really no need to get more threat, especially at the sacrifice of survivability.
    ^ When you put it that way I feel like I made the wrong point. Yes, you're absolutely correct gear for survivability, gem, glyph and also enchant for survivability, I was just saying don't avoid hit if the gear comes with it, because I assume other OT warriors like myself read this forum and want to know how much hit they should be rocking and it's worth, to be able to perform any odd jobs they may have in these new encounters. It'll help out with trash or fights like Dreamwalker, where in later on in heroic, you probably won't want to miss picking up the continuously increasing horde of adds.
    Last edited by Tanthalas; 02-24-2010 at 06:42 PM.
    My 80's all on US/Malorne/Horde ~ Tanthalas - Držzztt - Tiamatt - Slyra -Thylra - IcebanÍ - –Íspair

  6. #86
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    Sure for some fights some hit is needed, but using only a few pieces of gear with it that are in my EHP set anyways, if I have hit food and glyph of taunt and an spriest or boomkin, then my taunt will never miss (basically 118 hit rating needed). Between mocking blow, shield slam, and taunt tricks, and any other ability, I just can't see add pick up being a problem. No you shouldn't avoid hit, but you also should not prioritize it.

    I would also say that taunt was extremely important in ToGC. Add pickup on jaraxxus, picking up each boss, the taunt rotation on gormok, the taunt rotation for the worms (depending on what strat you used). Picking up adds on anub'arak, normal FC it was pretty important for add management. Taunt is important, but the glyph of taunt pretty much makes up for anything you don't have and is all that is really necessary for all of the scenarios out there.

    So when the question comes up by any OT or MT "how much taunt should I have" then my response is the same as always: it doesn't matter unless you NEED to taunt, in which case, look at the table and find the value that works in your situation.

    Edit: the footnote is also just at the very bottom of the original post.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  7. #87
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    One thing I would mention to people: don't be afraid to dynamically adjust your Vigilance target mid-fight. Click-bind it to Grid or something.

    There is nothing stopping you from having Vigilance on a 12k DPS Mage for most of the fight, but swapping it to the MT 1-2s before you need to taunt to make sure you get 'free' refreshes if your Taunt misses, then swapping it back to the Mage/Fury Warrior/whatever once the other tank goes back to tanking/doing proper TPSing. (Having Vigilance on an OT is generally not a bad use of Vigilance either, so you don't always have to swap it back to a DPS as soon as you start tanking--the OT will be able to pump out decent TPS to feed you.)

    e.g. on Festergut I usually put it on the highest TPS DPSer at the start of the fight as the 2nd tank (just to reduce their TPS) then swap it to the MT at 8 stacks to give me an assured taunt window and then leave it on the MT to make sure his threat transition goes smoothly--since he'll be doing quite high DPS even if he drops RF with 9 stacks. Once I have 9 stacks, I swap it to someone doing next to no TPS just for ease and to make sure I don't get any aggro I don't want (I usually pick a Disc Priest.)
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  8. #88
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    Hit rating on trash is usually a moot point, trash is usually lvl 82, which means they have significantly less chance to miss then a boss. Especially spell miss.

    Personally I go even further then simply not prioritizing it, I avoid it; as it's wasted itemization imo.

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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    One thing I would mention to people: don't be afraid to dynamically adjust your Vigilance target mid-fight. Click-bind it to Grid or something.

    There is nothing stopping you from having Vigilance on a 12k DPS Mage for most of the fight, but swapping it to the MT 1-2s before you need to taunt to make sure you get 'free' refreshes if your Taunt misses, then swapping it back to the Mage/Fury Warrior/whatever once the other tank goes back to tanking/doing proper TPSing. (Having Vigilance on an OT is generally not a bad use of Vigilance either, so you don't always have to swap it back to a DPS as soon as you start tanking--the OT will be able to pump out decent TPS to feed you.)

    e.g. on Festergut I usually put it on the highest TPS DPSer at the start of the fight as the 2nd tank (just to reduce their TPS) then swap it to the MT at 8 stacks to give me an assured taunt window and then leave it on the MT to make sure his threat transition goes smoothly--since he'll be doing quite high DPS even if he drops RF with 9 stacks. Once I have 9 stacks, I swap it to someone doing next to no TPS just for ease and to make sure I don't get any aggro I don't want (I usually pick a Disc Priest.)
    Same. Excellent reminder. In some cases, in 10mans for example, the dynamic vig adjusting can also provide some needed damage reduction as well.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    Same. Excellent reminder. In some cases, in 10mans for example, the dynamic vig adjusting can also provide some needed damage reduction as well.
    True, but remember the damage reducing part doesn't stack with things like blessing of sanctuary.

    Maybe a more indepth explanation of the utility of vigilance is something I'll add to my next overhaul of this.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 02-25-2010 at 10:08 AM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #91
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    Agreed. That's why I highlighted that as a 10man consideration specifically.

  12. #92
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    Oh... derp, lol.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    @ the Admins: should this be moved to the guides forum?
    I'd say that section would better suit guides that are 100% correct.

    If you're going to argue the point, try EJ, which (no offense to the TS admins) contains opinions and proof, posted by a lot more experienced tanks - or perhaps Xav will stumble upon this post and offer his assistance.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgen View Post
    I'd say that section would better suit guides that are 100% correct.

    If you're going to argue the point, try EJ, which (no offense to the TS admins) contains opinions and proof, posted by a lot more experienced tanks - or perhaps Xav will stumble upon this post and offer his assistance.
    Well I wouldn't necessarily say that Agg isn't an experienced tank since his guild has gotten a few top 10 world wide kills and I can't really find any errors in the post. Maybe you could offer suggestions to further improved the guide if there are any errors or mistakes.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgen View Post
    I'd say that section would better suit guides that are 100% correct.

    If you're going to argue the point, try EJ, which (no offense to the TS admins) contains opinions and proof, posted by a lot more experienced tanks - or perhaps Xav will stumble upon this post and offer his assistance.
    Although I don't agree with Agg all the time, I would point out that basically all the people who post definitive stuff about tanking on EJ also post here. Tankspot is really the home to a lot more theorycraft and solid stuff about tanking than EJ--which main strengths are its DPS theorycrafting for certain class communities.
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  16. #96
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    Also EJ's strength isn't necessarily in the direct experience of it's community either. It's in the number crunching. A lot of the best and brightest posters at EJ aren't 1% progressed raiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krc View Post
    Well I wouldn't necessarily say that Agg isn't an experienced tank since his guild has gotten a few top 10 world wide kills and I can't really find any errors in the post. Maybe you could offer suggestions to further improved the guide if there are any errors or mistakes.
    Rofl, that's like saying Kungen's guild has gotten a few top 10 world wide kills, nobody cares, the idiot enchants 15BR to Shield - Kungen's knowledge and experience of his class isn't the reason why Ensidia are so successful (not that they have been as of late, hah), it's the effort and cooperation of the guild as a whole that does it.

    I have no doubt that Agg is an exceptional Warrior tank, but I've noticed a few things that aren't necessarily 'correct' in this thread;

    • * Hit Rating stat weighs.
      * Exp/Stam gemming recommendations.
      * Cookie cutter spec recommendations.


    I might one day spend some time writing my own guide, but until then, I'll do my best to comment on other ones without sounding like too much of a jerk. (:

    Elitist Jerks;

    • EJ isn't just famous for it's number crunching, it's more the fact that they're elitist jerks - they spend the vast majority of their time studying their class, and for a while, their in-game profession was a clear indication of that.

      EJ is the theorycrafting home to many famous names, and it was the first theorycraft forum for them to frequent I'm fairly sure - Xav, Quigon/Marauder, Landsoul, Rustyboy, Satrina and Liar, to name a few, have all been huge contributors to the tanking community of WoW, and their threads have MADE tanks who they are today.

      I realize a few, if not all of these people post here on Tank Spot, but that wasn't my point - my point is that people will read this thread wanting specifics, confirmation, help and recommendations - and they won't get that a lot of the time, cause it's based on one persons experiences, thus far(unless I missed the part where you made additions based on peoples corrections).
    Last edited by dgen; 02-28-2010 at 03:30 PM. Reason: I'm gay.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgen View Post

    • * Hit Rating stat weighs.
      * Exp/Stam gemming recommendations.
      * Cookie cutter spec recommendations.


    I might one day spend some time writing my own guide, but until then, I'll do my best to comment on other ones without sounding like too much of a jerk. (:

    Elitist Jerks;



    I agree with you that agility and stamina gems are generally better than expertise stam when going for a socket bonus. However I disagree with you about the hit and spec part. I am assuming you think hit should be valued more since it is generally not mentioned a whole lot in the guide but Xav has only 95 hit and glyphs for Taunt like Agg is saying. Xav's spec is almost the same thing as that in the guide, his offspec is a Piercing Howl kiting spec which I think for the most part people looking for a guide aren't going to need or know how to use.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by krc View Post
    I agree with you that agility and stamina gems are generally better than expertise stam when going for a socket bonus.
    Dodge/Stamina .. Agility/Stamina, either would be better - it's dumb how people think Expertise can be used "as an avoidance stat" as well as a threat stat, when half the bosses in ICC don't parry haste anyway, and those that do hit like pansies anyway.

    However I disagree with you about the hit and spec part. I am assuming you think hit should be valued more since it is generally not mentioned a whole lot in the guide but Xav has only 95 hit and glyphs for Taunt like Agg is saying.
    I'm saying you don't need hit at all and I realize Xav has little to no hit; Xav isn't retarded.

    Xav's spec is almost the same thing as that in the guide, his offspec is a Piercing Howl kiting spec which I think for the most part people looking for a guide aren't going to need or know how to use.
    Xav's spec has 5/5 Shield Specialization, cause it provides more mitigation, which is optimal; so is the fact that he doesn't use FR, cause there are much more valuable talents.

    Hope this cleared the air.

  20. #100
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    Expertise gemmings are sometimes used/recommended in the cases of TPS issues, specifically when below the Expertise soft-crap. Pre soft-capped Expertise is the best threat stat for Warriors by leaps and bounds and, as such, is not a bad option when experiencing TPS issues.

    Anyway, Xav is a good guy and probably a great tank (can't say I've raided with him!)--but, like every other tank, makes decisions for specific reasons. Copying gear/specs/stats from one person or another rarely makes sense. Xav changes his gear, enchants, gems, etc. a lot and his spec fairly often. Guides like these are to help people understand the rationale behind gearing and how best to make informed decisions, not to tell them what to do.

    For a guide, Agg's is pretty good. I would recommend people to read it, since there's a fair bit to learn there. To dismiss it because Xav didn't write it or because it's not on EJ is missing the point.
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