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Thread: Great Ghostcrawler Post

  1. #41
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    The beautiful thing about this MMORPG, when compared to many others i've progressed through, is that the game developers actually listen to the players. World of warcraft is constantly improving as a MMOPRG as a result of player feedback and excellent game developers, appealing to more and more people all the time, and the game is more enjoyable and diverse than ever as a result.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    I think its funny he talks about how players are obsessed with maximizing efficiency and wiping is unacceptable. When they design encounters around this. Having a set amount of attempts on bosses just reinforces players dislike to wipe and want/need to maximize efficiency.
    This, this, this, and a thousand more times, THIS!

    GC speaks of the player base in blunt terms, and that is fine, I read the tanking forums at wow.com on a daily basis and I know how rife it is with mis-infomation. The problem I have with this post, is (as squats pointed out) that blizzard has created this monster itself.

    Players in my guild wiped for DAYS at a time on progression without batting an eyelash in vanilla, and in bc too. When undying/immortal came along in Nax, things started to change. Players got upset over things we used to consider trivial: someone who dc'd at a halariously in-opportune moment, bringing in a recruit on progression night just to give him a trial by fire, or even just running a raid without the most ideal raid composition we could muster.

    Raiding progression in the world of immortal, limited attempts, and incentives to either be a normal-mode farmer, or breaking the limits of sanity for perfect runs is ripping our raid roster a new one. We've always been (and i know quite a few guilds like us) middle of the road'ers. We raid 3 nights a week, we take it seriously, and we raid to see current content/earn achievments that show we're actually good at what we do.

    Too much encouragment of min/max all-or-nothing raid style has made comparatively small issues (like one tank taking 8% more damage, or another tank lacking a certain raid buff) into things that will throw a player either into another role (simply because his class is more suited to it) or onto the bench until the content is cleared.

    Nobody wants to be the ill-equipped player who ruined that achievement, or cost the guild another week of waiting until they could attempt an encounter again, and this fear is what is driving people to squabble over things that blizzard considers inane. If GC is really this perplexed about the state of his player base, he should try playing his own game (or getting more feedback) a little more often.

    If the future of WoW lies in limited attempts, undying raid achievements tied to the best loot, or any other such gimmicks that promote such perfection: they are going to have to tune the various classes more perfectly in-kind. There is no way around it. If you are asking a given raid makeup to do something EXACTLY so, you cannot make it 10% harder for one comp than another (within reason ofc, nobody presumes to think a 25 mage raid should be catered to).

    I fully realize that most of these issues (limited attempts in particular) were not INTENDED to have these kinds of effects. They were more aimed at giving end-game content artifical longevity by road-blocking extremely hardcore guilds from sitting at a boss for 6 days strait. Whatever the reason we have come to this point, I think these measures need to be re-evaluated for Cataclysm.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    Players in my guild wiped for DAYS at a time on progression without batting an eyelash in vanilla, and in bc too.
    You say that as though it were a good thing.

    Wiping for days on the same encounter is simply beyond the time investment a hobby should require.

    I have no interest in doing that. There are other things going on in my life. WoW isn't a job where I get paid to (figuratively) bang my head against a wall over and over and over again.

    Yes, I like the game to present me with a challenge. I'm happy if the challenge scales up for people who want to invest more time and take their hobby more seriously. But if the challenge REQUIRES pre-nerf M'uru equivalent amounts of wiping, I'm out of here, fast.

    When Ghostcrawler talks about risk aversion, I think he's using the wrong term, anyway. One-true-wayism would probably be a better way to describe it. WoW players are extremely set in their ways, even high-end raiders (heck, in some cases, especially them) and fixated on using theoretically optimal, minmaxed solutions, even where they are complete overkill or actually wrong. Players who deviate from cookie-cutter specs or supposedly ideal gemming get savaged on the forums (even if the underlying theorycraft is very questionable). The guild leader of Elitist Jerks (who can be presumed to know the relevant theorycraft inside out) would probably be called a "noob" or worse for his gem choices. Try to talk a group to run even a regular level 80 instance with an arms warrior or retribution paladin tanking (with a shield and defensive stance/righteous fury, of course) these days and see what happens.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    This, this, this, and a thousand more times, THIS!

    GC speaks of the player base in blunt terms, and that is fine, I read the tanking forums at wow.com on a daily basis and I know how rife it is with mis-infomation. The problem I have with this post, is (as squats pointed out) that blizzard has created this monster itself.

    Players in my guild wiped for DAYS at a time on progression without batting an eyelash in vanilla, and in bc too. When undying/immortal came along in Nax, things started to change. Players got upset over things we used to consider trivial: someone who dc'd at a halariously in-opportune moment, bringing in a recruit on progression night just to give him a trial by fire, or even just running a raid without the most ideal raid composition we could muster.

    Raiding progression in the world of immortal, limited attempts, and incentives to either be a normal-mode farmer, or breaking the limits of sanity for perfect runs is ripping our raid roster a new one. We've always been (and i know quite a few guilds like us) middle of the road'ers. We raid 3 nights a week, we take it seriously, and we raid to see current content/earn achievments that show we're actually good at what we do.

    Too much encouragment of min/max all-or-nothing raid style has made comparatively small issues (like one tank taking 8% more damage, or another tank lacking a certain raid buff) into things that will throw a player either into another role (simply because his class is more suited to it) or onto the bench until the content is cleared.

    Nobody wants to be the ill-equipped player who ruined that achievement, or cost the guild another week of waiting until they could attempt an encounter again, and this fear is what is driving people to squabble over things that blizzard considers inane. If GC is really this perplexed about the state of his player base, he should try playing his own game (or getting more feedback) a little more often.

    If the future of WoW lies in limited attempts, undying raid achievements tied to the best loot, or any other such gimmicks that promote such perfection: they are going to have to tune the various classes more perfectly in-kind. There is no way around it. If you are asking a given raid makeup to do something EXACTLY so, you cannot make it 10% harder for one comp than another (within reason ofc, nobody presumes to think a 25 mage raid should be catered to).

    I fully realize that most of these issues (limited attempts in particular) were not INTENDED to have these kinds of effects. They were more aimed at giving end-game content artifical longevity by road-blocking extremely hardcore guilds from sitting at a boss for 6 days strait. Whatever the reason we have come to this point, I think these measures need to be re-evaluated for Cataclysm.


    This. The limited attemts system can almost be a lottery when it comes to single wipe/death being the difference between a WHOLE WEEKs worth of raid content. Funnily, even on our dedicated insanity achievement, my only ever disconnect inside ToC happened right at the start but i was lucky to get looged back in and taunt the boss just as the OT died. luck number 1: a few seconds later and half the raid would have been dead, luck number 2: we had a druid in the raid so we could combat res the tank, luck number 3: the only other death was an enhancement shaman who could self res too.

    I feel the limited time method of algalon served both purposes well in that it prevented the opportunity for guilds to just throw 24 hours of raid time at it to get the quick kill yet prevented an unfortunate error destroying a whole weeks worth of attempts.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    You say that as though it were a good thing.

    Wiping for days on the same encounter is simply beyond the time investment a hobby should require.
    And yet, my brother in Memphis spends well over 40 hours a week on his hobby (he's an amature boxer) while holding down a regular day job. My former roomate spends around 90% of his disposable income and time on cars, and my wife squanders every second of her day (if you want to look at it your way) on our well-trained and sometimes obedient Labrador Retriever.

    The game CAN be a massive time sink no matter how you slice it. Hardcore players are still putting in many more hours a week than the average joe. Why? Because they can, and because they truly enjoy the game for what it is. If they are not enjoying it and continue to play long hours, they've probably got addiction issues that no patch notes can resolve.

    I take a look at what most players do these days with their time and see heroic farming, pvp, and various gold making schemes are popular, but most of the players I raid with have more interest in actual raiding. They would like to spend more time on an encounter in-person than talking about it on vent, in forums, and in-game chat, but due to lockouts and limited attempts we've had to take a much more conservative approach to the raiding we do. It isn't an adjustment that magically forced all the hardcore raiders to go outside and find another hobby, it is merely a frustration for those players who like to experience the game as-is without artificial road-blocks to their enjoyment of new content.

    I have no interest in doing that. There are other things going on in my life. WoW isn't a job where I get paid to (figuratively) bang my head against a wall over and over and over again.

    Yes, I like the game to present me with a challenge. I'm happy if the challenge scales up for people who want to invest more time and take their hobby more seriously. But if the challenge REQUIRES pre-nerf M'uru equivalent amounts of wiping, I'm out of here, fast.
    And that is FINE. Nobody in a casual guild, or even a middle-road guild can be expected to put in 6 days a week, and only a very small number of guilds do. I'm certainly in no such guild right now. With that being said, the "requirements" you're talking about don't exist. You can take 10 months to do something another guild does in a week and you've still accomplished the same thing. Putting in artifical barriers just makes you feel as though you're on similar footing with top guilds, and while it placates a very spiteful (often blanketed as "casual") player who is envious of others doing things faster. It really helps nobody enjoy the game. Also, you're ignoring the fact that WOTLK has introduced normal modes that are readily defeated by most any organized guild run, and even pugs in most cases. Hardmodes are meant to challenge, and i see no reason at all that these encounters should be limited because of a player base that they are no designed for.

    When Ghostcrawler talks about risk aversion, I think he's using the wrong term, anyway. One-true-wayism would probably be a better way to describe it. WoW players are extremely set in their ways, even high-end raiders (heck, in some cases, especially them) and fixated on using theoretically optimal, minmaxed solutions, even where they are complete overkill or actually wrong. Players who deviate from cookie-cutter specs or supposedly ideal gemming get savaged on the forums (even if the underlying theorycraft is very questionable). The guild leader of Elitist Jerks (who can be presumed to know the relevant theorycraft inside out) would probably be called a "noob" or worse for his gem choices. Try to talk a group to run even a regular level 80 instance with an arms warrior or retribution paladin tanking (with a shield and defensive stance/righteous fury, of course) these days and see what happens.
    I do understand the min/max attitudes that have arisen in the later years of wow's development, but you have to understand this has more to do with the growth of an experienced player base than anything else. Add to it the fact that high-end content (as i mentioned) is now heavily penalized for sub-optimal specs, gear, and connectivity: this is only compounding the problem.

  6. #46
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    One the topic of wiping for days on a given boss:
    There is a big difference between wiping for days and making progress through the encounter during this time, and wiping for days and making no progress.

    Wiping and making no progress sucks. most people have experienced this at some point in time. I would rather not have to do this.

    However, I have no problem with wiping for days, or even weeks if needed if progress is being made, no matter how small.

    for example it took my guild something like 3 weeks to learn/kill Heroic 25man Anub'arak, but even still Anub is one of my favorite fights of WotlK thus far because of the fact that it took us a while to learn, but it's such a well tuned encounter that once you know how to do something, you can't really get worse at it (or shouldn't) so it was easy to progress through the encounter.

    I would gladly spend that much time and more on a given fight in ICC if it was of comparable difficulty.

    The longer you spend on a hard boss fight the more satisfying it is when you kill it (in my opinion at least)

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    One the topic of wiping for days on a given boss:
    There is a big difference between wiping for days and making progress through the encounter during this time, and wiping for days and making no progress.

    Wiping and making no progress sucks. most people have experienced this at some point in time. I would rather not have to do this.

    However, I have no problem with wiping for days, or even weeks if needed if progress is being made, no matter how small.

    for example it took my guild something like 3 weeks to learn/kill Heroic 25man Anub'arak, but even still Anub is one of my favorite fights of WotlK thus far because of the fact that it took us a while to learn, but it's such a well tuned encounter that once you know how to do something, you can't really get worse at it (or shouldn't) so it was easy to progress through the encounter.

    I would gladly spend that much time and more on a given fight in ICC if it was of comparable difficulty.

    The longer you spend on a hard boss fight the more satisfying it is when you kill it (in my opinion at least)

    I agree, spending more time on a well-tuned boss encounter is rewarding, and not punishing for me. I think we've escaped the realm of per-nerf Muru content and months of face-keyboard action for one kill (that may or may not be repeated for another half dozen weeks). In WOTLK we have lots and lots of content that is going to be downed with little effort regardless. We also have challenging content (not Muru challenging, but Anub, Yogg-0, Firefighter, etc. were all challenging) that gives progressed guilds something to chew on. I see no correlation that would bring about another Muru just because there were unlimited attempts on an end-game progression encounter.

    Blizzard has shown their capacity to create content that well-organized guilds can have fun with for weeks on end, with or without lockouts such as these. I think the fact the world-first guilds brand their logo onto this content's ass in a few days has (or should have) little bearing on how many attempts are given per week. It isn't fun for the casuals who would spend just as much time (assuming they raid few enough hours to not hit the lockout) each week on the encounter anyhow. It isn't fun for the mid-level guilds who hit the lockout within the first day or two of their 3-4 day raid week, and it certainly isn't fun for the high-end guilds who take a flying leap into the wall on day1.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    And yet, my brother in Memphis spends well over 40 hours a week on his hobby (he's an amature boxer) while holding down a regular day job. My former roomate spends around 90% of his disposable income and time on cars, and my wife squanders every second of her day (if you want to look at it your way) on our well-trained and sometimes obedient Labrador Retriever.
    And I also play a lot, while spending plenty of times with my kids and my husband (who doesn't play) and working as a postdoc. However, 40 hours a week (or even 10 hours) should not be required for a hobby. If you want to put in that much time, fine. Complaining that people aren't willing to wipe for days on the same boss anymore? That's silly.

    Also, you're ignoring the fact that WOTLK has introduced normal modes that are readily defeated by most any organized guild run, and even pugs in most cases. Hardmodes are meant to challenge, and i see no reason at all that these encounters should be limited because of a player base that they are no designed for.
    I am not ignoring that. In fact, that was precisely what I was alluding to. Which is that WoW is pretty much fine as is right now, and that I find complaints that things were better when players were accustomed to wiping for days on a non-hardmode boss a bit strange.

    I do understand the min/max attitudes that have arisen in the later years of wow's development, but you have to understand this has more to do with the growth of an experienced player base than anything else. Add to it the fact that high-end content (as i mentioned) is now heavily penalized for sub-optimal specs, gear, and connectivity: this is only compounding the problem.
    The problem that I'm referring to is not minmaxing as such: it's ignorant pseudo-minmaxing, often based on broken or incomplete models of the game that still has somehow become conventional wisdom. People are not being penalized for being less effective, but for straying from the conventional wisdom, even if they actually do better or in situations where it doesn't really matter.

  9. #49
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    Generally speaking, people's expectations are simply out-of-whack.

    I don't pug raids often; it's usually on some alt that doesn't get into our guild's regular raiding schedule. When I do that, I don't expect to get anywhere. Its. A. Freaking. PUG. I stick it out, I do my best to pull my weight, and I don't nitpick over someone's sub-par dps and whine at the RL about it. It's a pug, it is what it is, and downing a boss is a bonus, not a right. If I want to down bosses with any consistency, I don't expect to find it in a pug; I expect that from my own guild.

    I do expect to wipe. I'm a good sport about it.

    Back before ulduar was released, I'd get into some OS pug, and some people would be all "we're doing three drakes, right?"

    ...Are you kidding me? The few times I was in a pug back then where the RL gave in to that kind of idiocy, it was a disaster.

    Blizzard gave people an easy way of doing things, and a hard way. Everyone wants to feel like they're uber and should somehow manage to get all the hard stuff done; they don't want to be carried, they honestly think they are capable of it when (to those who know better) they clearly are not. Their expectations are completely unrealistic.

    That, imo, is the biggest problem. They heard that some guy said that a friend said "x is easy, ur an rtard if u cant do it" and they believed it, just because some random person supposedly said it.

    Unbelievable.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    That, imo, is the biggest problem. They heard that some guy said that a friend said "x is easy, ur an rtard if u cant do it" and they believed it, just because some random person supposedly said it.

    Unbelievable.
    Amen to that. I'm REALLY getting sick of hearing that kinda stuff. "oh Ulduar 10 is a joke! your guild can't clear it one shot? you guys must SUCK!"

    ...No, we don't suck. We one-shot everything up to the Keepers, then we bang our heads against Hodir's flash-frozen backside and he kills us all. Repeatedly. Is it easy for YOU? Apparently so. Is it easy for me and my guild? No. Instead of laughing at us or simply proclaiming that we suck, how about a little help and explain how YOUR guild/friends beat him?

    Oh, and one rule about that: 'get better gear' is NOT an acceptable answer.

    >< sorry folks. That whole thing just irks me to no end. The people who say that stuff have no clue what it does to the morale of the players they're around. "this is EASY! you should be able to handle this! WTF?!" is a really great thing to say to people who've been busting their butts since this patch dropped to farm badges and spent hundreds of gold gemming and enchanting. Only to hear you rage at them when despite their gear and their best efforts, something is in fact beyond them.

    the fact that it's beyond them is spirit-breaking enough. being told that it's easy and you're a moron for not being able to handle it...yeah. that's one of the reasons I don't play my tank much anymore. I've gotten sick of everything being so easy but I still can't do it. Where's this land of easy again? I seem to have lost the roadmap to it.

    >< ack! sorry again people. Didn't mean to rage so much...
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  11. #51
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    Been some good points here, really.

    Me myself do both quite regularily, I PUG whatever I can, just for the fun of it. But I also raid almost every night with my guild.
    I'm the Guild leader and since I've become that (since last summer) I've tried to balance social and raiding. Now this may be hard, but it's truly rewarding, our social nature ensures that as long as we get some more health of the boss, we consider it as progress.
    It's so great to hear ppl having fun one moment and when the encounter starts you hear everyone going quiet because they really focus.
    We even have a saying in our guild that goes like this: "KotA doesn't wipe, we make tactical retreats."
    It's true that we make it harder for ourselves by not just progressing with an elite group, but we try to get the whole guild to that point. We first send in our best raiders and after they've done it a few times so that we know the tactics really well, we give the others a chance also. End-game should be for everyone to see, not just to hear about it imo.

    As for PUGs, well, when I lead one I allways try to give everyone a chance also, I also explain that those that expect to be boosted through and are not prepared to do it a casual pace can leave right away. This allways makes one or 2 ppl leave straight away, but most are ok with it.
    When I join a PUG I never leave the raid coz of a wipe if it's run right, from the moment they start putting ppl down, I'm gone however.

    The one thing that really bugs me about most PUGs is that they keep asking for a certain gearscore (I've heard about a gearscore req of 2.8k on wowheroes for naxx25) and ofcourse asking for achievement link coz they're just too lazy to explain the tacs to new ppl.

    Anyways, this has come out longer then I intended and I'll close it off now by saying: All those that can't have patience and don't want to have anyone new learning things, should go play a console game and leave the realms of MMOs.

  12. #52
    And I also play a lot, while spending plenty of times with my kids and my husband (who doesn't play) and working as a postdoc. However, 40 hours a week (or even 10 hours) should not be required for a hobby. If you want to put in that much time, fine. Complaining that people aren't willing to wipe for days on the same boss anymore? That's silly.
    It's not required at all. Nothing is required. Leaving Dalaran at all isn't required. Collecting 100 mounts isn't required. Doing more than standing on the mailbox and dancing isn't required.

    People's expectations got a little crazy in WotLK. There's some "because its there" mentality to being able to clear everything. Like they should be able to one-shot Anub 25-heroic just "because its there", not because they spent time learning and wiping to it.

    The game is so much more accessible than ever. There's so much to do for every class of player. But the fact remains that there will be at least some content that's geared toward the kind of players willing to really put the effort in. It's not *required* that you pound your head against Anub 25-heroic, but some people like the challenge and prestige of having done it.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahrngarth View Post
    We first send in our best raiders and after they've done it a few times so that we know the tactics really well, we give the others a chance also.
    My guild tends to do the same, too. Sometimes we throw together a group before that point, just so folks not on the "A" team can see what it's like -- it tends to make them more patient.

  14. #54
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    Me and my new guild attempted to kill Lord Marrowgar yesterday, knowing we were most likely going to wipe hard. We struggled on trash, and our best attempt on him was 43% (after 8 minutes of fighting).

    We just accepted the wipes, no complaining, and tried again.

    We know the general reasons for wiping. People were panicing during the 'whirlwind' phase, running into fire and away from the healers. DPS was a bit low due to the movement required, and the healers' mana was straining.

    But you know what? It was still fun. Even though my gear isn't good enough (maybe good enough for TotC25 - maybe), I pulled my weight and was usually the last person to die (because the tank I wasn't assigned to heal would bite the dust because one of the other healers got hit by fire).

    No complaints. Just tried again. And we're getting there, slowly. Hopefully we'll try again in a few days with a few gear upgrades and maybe rotate in some melee dps. Its all part of the learning process.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Me and my new guild attempted to kill Lord Marrowgar yesterday, knowing we were most likely going to wipe hard. We struggled on trash, and our best attempt on him was 43% (after 8 minutes of fighting).

    We just accepted the wipes, no complaining, and tried again.

    We know the general reasons for wiping. People were panicing during the 'whirlwind' phase, running into fire and away from the healers. DPS was a bit low due to the movement required, and the healers' mana was straining.

    But you know what? It was still fun. Even though my gear isn't good enough (maybe good enough for TotC25 - maybe), I pulled my weight and was usually the last person to die (because the tank I wasn't assigned to heal would bite the dust because one of the other healers got hit by fire).

    No complaints. Just tried again. And we're getting there, slowly. Hopefully we'll try again in a few days with a few gear upgrades and maybe rotate in some melee dps. Its all part of the learning process.
    Sounds like you have a good attitude. Couple things that may help you:

    1. Put everyone just behind the boss and inside his hitbox except tanks and hunters. Fire does not spawn on people inside his hitbox. This also means that it's much easier and faster to switch to bone spikes, which means less running.

    2. Bonestorm really doesn't do that much damage as long as it's not hitting the whole raid at once. Spread out just enough so that he'll only hit a couple people at once, then hang out in place so there's less chaos, and keep dpsing him during the phase.

  16. #56
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    Afraid of wiping? Not willing to learn, by dying?

    I'm amazed at this attitude. Truly amazed...

    My main's name is Bluewisp...wisp, you know, what a Night Elf turns into, when dead, and going back to find his body? And, it's a name I chose, even before I'd ever grouped with a single other player, or played a multi-player online game before!

    I expect to enter new content, and die--a lot. It's how I learn...

    Yes, I can (and do), go watch the movies, of how to win the encounter, but I have yet to enter a new instance where the mobs and bosses have followed, to the letter, what was in those movies, much less the people I'm grouping with! About the most I learn, from a movie, is about where to position the boss, and a vague idea about what to watch out for, in terms of debuffs/attacks, and special abilities. Helpful, but a long way from a "guarantee" of success...

    It's probably a definite sign that I haven't raided much, as I will readily admit, but, honestly, I find it awesome that 10 or more people can accomplish any kind of cooperative "dance", in order to win a raid! Perhaps it's because my first raid was one of the outdoor-40man dragon encounters (the blue dragon, in middle of duskwood). That was a fight that took hours, mostly because people would run back in, and immediately be put to sleep, then killed again. I swear, the only reason we finally killed that Dragon was, he finally got so tired of laughing at us, he let his guard down!

    Dying, while fighting, is also how I truly got to know my closest guildie friends...

    Example:

    After the fifth time, or so, wiping in Shadow Labs, you have really run out of epithets, strategies, jokes, and most probably mana/health pots, yet no one is talking about quitting, and you can "feel" the grim focus coming over the group...this time, boss is goin' down!

    How can a "random badge speed run" ever compare to that?



    And, Tarngarth, I salute you, sir!!
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Sounds like you have a good attitude. Couple things that may help you:

    1. Put everyone just behind the boss and inside his hitbox except tanks and hunters. Fire does not spawn on people inside his hitbox. This also means that it's much easier and faster to switch to bone spikes, which means less running.

    2. Bonestorm really doesn't do that much damage as long as it's not hitting the whole raid at once. Spread out just enough so that he'll only hit a couple people at once, then hang out in place so there's less chaos, and keep dpsing him during the phase.
    All good advice. Keep in mind that if you employ #1 that your tanks will be the ones dodging all the fire. Running a simple left-right-left-right pattern should help them manage the VERY FREQUENT fire they'll deal with as a result.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    And I also play a lot, while spending plenty of times with my kids and my husband (who doesn't play) and working as a postdoc. However, 40 hours a week (or even 10 hours) should not be required for a hobby. If you want to put in that much time, fine. Complaining that people aren't willing to wipe for days on the same boss anymore? That's silly.
    You're missing the point. It is not required. Raiding at the highest level has never been the only way to see content. Casual guilds see the same content at a slower pace, and unless they're extra slow, they see the same level of difficulty give or take a hot-fix from something drastically over-tuned. If you don't want to put in that kind of time, great, you don't have to. But don't force every guild out there into 1 day's worth of attempts just because more casual players are only willing to put that much time in.


    I am not ignoring that. In fact, that was precisely what I was alluding to. Which is that WoW is pretty much fine as is right now, and that I find complaints that things were better when players were accustomed to wiping for days on a non-hardmode boss a bit strange.
    Which tier of raid, and approach to raids blizzard took, was better is relative. Some people like to have the strict attempt lockouts and some do not. We're seeing a variety of opinions here. I don't think anyone is saying "man, if only every boss took 3 months to down on normal mode, this game would be better." What some of us are saying is that hard-modes should not have an attempt limitation (or a much more relaxed one) that keeps guilds from actually experiencing the content and forces them to do even more theorycrafting and min/maxing instead of practice on the encounter.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    536
    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    All good advice. Keep in mind that if you employ #1 that your tanks will be the ones dodging all the fire. Running a simple left-right-left-right pattern should help them manage the VERY FREQUENT fire they'll deal with as a result.
    This is the tactic I've been using so far, and it works wonders. Forcing a couple people to follow a very organized set of moves is better than having the whole raid run willy-nilly evry time some fire appears.

    Plus clustering your raid makes dealing with bone spikes MUCH easier.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It's not required at all. Nothing is required. Leaving Dalaran at all isn't required. Collecting 100 mounts isn't required. Doing more than standing on the mailbox and dancing isn't required.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    You're missing the point. It is not required.
    You two are missing MY point. I agree that it's not required. I think that it's a good thing that Blizzard improved their game the way it is now. If days of attempts to kill a boss were still required, that would be annoying, and I'm not exactly full of sympathy for those who wish the "good old days" back.

    What I was taking issue with was the nostalgic retrospective of how before WotLK players suffered wiping on a boss over and over without complaint. Those times are past (except for those who actually wish to tackle the corresponding hardmodes). That's a good thing (in my opinion).

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