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Thread: Great Ghostcrawler Post

  1. #21
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    Then there's the people that wipe once and leave. ToC 25 group last night. It was a PUG, we ONE SHOT everything. We wipe once on Anub and two people drop group. What are we supposed to do? Even with it being the night before the night of reset, no one wants to come in and get saved there.

  2. #22
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    Sometimes you gotta wonder if PUG stands for people undeserving of gear.

  3. #23
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    People like that are why I wish there was a rating system, but lord knows it would be abused hard.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Agreed. My guild has never spend more than 10 attempts in ToGC. We aren't that hardcore. If we get stuck on something the GL will make the assessment on whether or not we're making any progress. And if we aren't we'll call the raid and try again some other time (which with our schedule often means the next lock out).
    First time we could clear it (we tried twice before but were too undergeared) we used 26 attempts. Yeah, someone joked about it at the start, we killed him, no worries.

    Second time, 19 attempts I think.

    Third time, 2 attempts, one was due to a LD as we pulled, the other due to a mistargetted taunt on Twins.

    And yeah, limited attempts are tough. ^_^

    Mind you, Algalon despawned on us twice until we could down him, but it gives the encounter a great sense of achievement to it. The pace is just that much tighter with a limited time to work on him.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  5. #25
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    We always joke about how blizzard knows our guild all too well, since in ToC, you get 50 unsuccessful attempts.

  6. #26
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    I can't conceive of a casual guild actually hitting the wipe limit on bosses. If they are, that guild is no longer casual.

    And I think that this obsession with efficiency is extremely bizarre. I don't know where it comes from and I certainly think it's bad for the game community. I've seen PUGs try to kick out warrior tanks before the first pull because of the weird stigma we're receiving right now. I saw my partner dps an instance where she got scolded for five minutes by the tank for her dps not being high enough. The instance was over in fifteen minutes with no wipes. What's the -point- of this obsession?

  7. #27
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    We are risk adverse, and obssessive-compulsive about efficiency and min / maxing. Why? Heroic modes, particularly the truly brutal level encounters out there. Muru prenerf, Yogg Zero light, etc. Encounters which require utter perfection in your tactics, gear, talents, and execution.

    Back learning Muru I remember the raid leader, was in a different guild back then, shouted at us, 'You guys don't understand, every single global cooldown needs to be perfect. If you cast one spell wrong, at any time, we will wipe.'

    That level of perfection is not easy to attain, and it requires habits that GC so casually dismisses. That being said, such perfection is only required in heroic mode, which is less than 3% of the wow raiding population. And the really brutal stuff is the top 0.5%. Everyone else doesn't have to be so perfectionist, but they have picked up our habits.

    But blizz does not balance around heroic mode... so, shrug, nothing we can do.

  8. #28
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    This is slightly off-topic from the direction this thread went, but I am not at all a believer that WoW has gotten easier. As much as everyone likes to say that, I think the simple truth is that the average WoW player has gotten much, much better. Incoming Wall O' Text.

    Take PVP as an example. Now, I do not do serious arenas, though I don't completely suck at them ever. Each season, I'll make a team with some friends and get my weapon / shoulders / other rated gear, and then spend the rest of the season goofing off and helping friends who aren't so hot at arenas get rating. But I've always PVP'd, since before BGs were in the game, and back in the day I used to play on a really competitive premade BG team.

    If you go read Arena Junkies (which I loathe more and more these days), most threads are people "e-peening" about how 'this game is a joke, anyone can get 2300 with their eyes closed'. Of course, that is not at all the reality. And if it was, they wouldn't be bothering to post in the forums that are controlled by your personal rating. But I digress.

    Do any of you have your old PVP videos from Vanilla WoW? I do, and it's embarassing. I played a PVP Healer (Holy Pally) in Vanilla. Something I remember, is back then, a sign of a "skilled" rogue was one who knew how to save their energy to do stun locks, and rogues who actually kicked heals, OMG, look out for them!

    But then TBC lands and arenas come around. And in season 1, Holy Paladin + Arms Warrior dominated, because 95% of the player base did not bother with CC, with spell interrupts, or with the control aspect of the game. Those subtle things that set the top 5% apart in Vanilla.

    But as arenas made people more competitive... people learned. And they got better. And somewhere, the WoW player base went from a majority of people who keyboard turned and spammed their big attack button, to people who mouse turned and play with 35+ keybinds, focus macros, have knowledge of which CCs are linked for diminishing return, and are good at interrupting and control.

    The skill of the average PVPer increased significantly following the release of arenas. And honestly, I believe the same thing happened in PVE as well.

    Was it Karazhan? I don't know about that. However, I do think the move to 10 and 25 man raids further moved the spotlight to the individual player, and caused more players to pick up their slack. I saw pretty much all the content in Vanilla, ending with 10 bosses dead in Naxx (I think it was 10), so not "bleeding edge" but pretty good, since most guilds on our server never even got to Naxx.

    I don't know about you, but in the days of 40 man raids, our raids were something like this: 15 core players who were good at the game, 15 players who weren't great, but did better than no DPS / no heals, and 10 players who brought nothing to the raid, but were friends / family of other raiders and basically collected free loot.

    With current raids, especially hard modes, you could never get away with that. In vanilla, virtually no one theorycrafted, few people farmed for those BIS items you could get oustside of raids, etc...

    But as time went on, it became expected that you do those things. Now, I couldn't tell you a single person I run raids with, even casual 10 mans, that do not thoroughly research their class here on Tankspot, on EJ, or another of other class-specific sites.

    You have a player base that has gone from "Skill doesn't matter, just bring 40 players, let have of them AFK, and content dies" to 10 / 25 people who study ahead, theorycraft, and bring at least their B game.

    In reality, I think WoW's community has become more impressive over the years. The same problems that used to have people scratching their heads for weeks, now people have data logging and theory crafting down to a silence and solved in days. And with more and more great resources, much like Tankspot, the ability to compartmentalize important information to the average player has greatly improved.

    Personally, I think Yogg-Saron was a more involved, complicated fight than C-Thun. However, how many guilds killed each?
    "Sometimes attaining the deepest familiarity with a question is our best substitute for actually having the answer." -- Brian Greene.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durenas View Post
    I remember doing scholomance back when you had to 15 man it.
    That must have been a really long time ago since it was 10-man --> 5-man.

    (U)BRS, though...good times.

    Dylae

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tylovan View Post
    Okay...first off, wherever this post is, I wish to read it. If anyone knows where it is or can post a link, please lemme know. I may just be being blind, but still.
    I'm interpreting this as a call out i.e. a claim that I fabricated the quote - if I misinterpret then I apologize. This is the link to mmo-champion blue tracker where I picked up the quote.

    MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Chill is costing Druids raid spots

    Where the quote is on the wow forums, I have no idea, as I don't read those forums normally - too many crazies imho.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylae View Post
    That must have been a really long time ago since it was 10-man --> 5-man.

    (U)BRS, though...good times.

    Dylae
    Yeah, and when Scholo opened, the trash respawned in one hour, not four. They changed it later to 2, and I remember that there was much rejoicing. I think GC must not have played then.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I'm interpreting this as a call out i.e. a claim that I fabricated the quote - if I misinterpret then I apologize. This is the link to mmo-champion blue tracker where I picked up the quote.

    MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Chill is costing Druids raid spots

    Where the quote is on the wow forums, I have no idea, as I don't read those forums normally - too many crazies imho.

    Nah, not that I think you made it up, I'd just like to read it. It's not often that someone from Blizzard takes something other than a mostly neutral stance on things from what I've seen. It's just nice to see someone who understands the way some of us feel and I'm eager to read more of what he said.

    Also someone mentioned that Yogg may be harder than C'thun, I can confirm that even at level 80, AQ can put up quite the fight. My guild tried twice to down it. Twice we stalled at Twin Emperors. It's just not a fight we had the coordination for.

    Which I think that might be one thing that we've kinda done to ourselves too....I dunno about everyone else, but it seems like when my guild does a fight, we can know the fight, but alot of times it's still disorientating. If things don't go off exactly how they should at the beginning, everyone has to take a second to recover and get back to the positions they're supposed to be at. It's not that it's a horribly bad thing, but it seems like while we know the fight in theory, all this structure that everyone stresses has caused us to loose the ability to fly by the seat of our pants and adapt to try and get a fight back under control if it goes awry. It might even affect how many tries it takes to get a boss down.

    Bah...kinda rambling but I think you guys get the idea.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  13. #33
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    I do a full AQ40 clear with 6 or so people every few weeks (running old instances is good $$ when you're bored; we can run MC -> BWL -> AQ40 in under two hours, get about 1200 gold). For retropect, a majority of these people are from a guild that never killed C'Thun @ level 60, after wiping on C'Thun for a month or so, and wound up just waiting for Naxx to come out.

    The issue with Twin Emps at level 80 is that one of the core mechanics of the fight didn't scale. When the Twin Emps teleport, they give a certain amount of proximity aggro to the nearest target. However, at level 80, a single bleed or DoT outdoes this proximity aggro (which was definitely not the case at level 60), making it sometimes really hard to keep them from taking off running right after the teleport. Especially since most tanking classes at 80 have a DoT of some sort.
    "Sometimes attaining the deepest familiarity with a question is our best substitute for actually having the answer." -- Brian Greene.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
    First time we could clear it (we tried twice before but were too undergeared) we used 26 attempts. Yeah, someone joked about it at the start, we killed him, no worries.
    I commend your patients. For us, 10 wipe recoveries is already about an hour's time which seriously cuts into our scheduled raid time. But then again, if we would have bumped up or raid days from usually 1 (2 on good weeks) to normally 2 and 3 on good weeks, we could have put that many attempts in each lockout I suppose. But still, nowhere near 50.

    But anyways, seeing a post about how Discipline Priests didn't have the tools to heal tanks made me think back to this thread. I mean, talk about wipe aversion, are players really at the state where if they wipe they go to the forums and complain that their class is incapable of tanking/healing/dpsing said encounter? Sheesh.

  15. #35
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    People forgot to wipe with dignity.
    This annoys me and ruins my sales figures for fish feasts.
    So it annoys me twice.

    Frankly, I blame the easy 5man heroics and lame ass Naxxramas.

    In the olden day before hard modes you had encounters that owned your progression. Hard.

    You didn't get to see anything before you figured out how to heal thru Magmadar. Or even get there. Shazzrah also was a stop gap. Don't get me started on Sulfuron Herold, Vael, Chromaggus, old school Anub'Rekhan, Patch, Princess Huhuhaha, Twin Emps and so on.

    Now everything but hard mode is a pushover. We've got to the point that ilvl245 DPS isn't even able to focus trash anymore. It shows in HoR last few waves.

    I remember our first foray into Uldaman. Took 5 sittings to get thru. And that was a lowbie instance. Now everybody steps into raids/heroics without even the basic skills we had back there. One of those lost skills is persistance.

    It's like:
    I've fallen and I'm too lazy to get up again.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  16. #36
    It was a PUG, we ONE SHOT everything. We wipe once on Anub and two people drop group. What are we supposed to do?
    Yeah, it really is stunning. I've had people just drop group because someone died during an attempt. What's weird is how they'll get saved to the raid and then just rage quit over a little speedbump...you're already saved!! What the heck are you doing?!

    One that stands out in my memory was an Onyxia 25 pug the first week or two she was out. A few people were new to it and died in the phase 2->3 transition and some people just left the raid right there. Just ungrouped and hearthed. Absolutely amazing. But we downed her anyway and laughed at them. That felt good.

    We had a new guy simply /gquit...just up and left the guild...last night because we wiped once on Deathwhisper while trying to 22-man it. (Stupid holidays!) Of course, he stayed long enough for us to down her and for him to see the loot.

    I...don't know what's wrong with people anymore. It's like people started taking the "Epics in your mailbox" jokes seriously. I'm amazed some people even go through the trouble to log on at all, as sensitive as they are.
    Last edited by Bovinity; 12-23-2009 at 02:27 PM.

  17. #37
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    Whoah, that's pretty messed up Bovinity.

    I'd make some comment about it being a reflection on society in some way, but really, I'll just stick with "people are douchebags". :\

  18. #38
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    hrm...well, instead of sticking with "people are douchebags" (it's good but people might take offense and it gets us nowhere. Silly people who can't take criticism.) maybe the mantra we should have as people who are aware of these problems is something along the lines of "slow down, take a breath, relax and enjoy."

    Because really, that's what the answer to all of this is. People are whining about how a group goes so slow when you're practically chain pulling? those people need to slow down and relax and enjoy the game.

    People ragequit when you wipe once? It's a part of the game, it happens to all of us on occasion. hundred-gold repair bills aren't fun, but still they need to take a deep breath, relax and enjoy the game.

    People freak out when the tank looses one mob for a few seconds because someone over-aggroed? Don't scream at the tank to get better gear. That doesn't always help. Better option: Slow down and take a breath, check your log and see what happened. Did the DPS go full-power and pull aggro? yes. Let's try not to do that again and relax and enjoy the game.

    See? it works for just about any situation. Unless you're being paid to play WoW (in which case I think we'd all wanna know about that so we can submit our resumes) this is a pastime, a hobby. We're allowed to slow down and relax.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  19. #39
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    Tylovan, your response is wise, but I think the root of the problem is that too many people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. And if someone is never at fault, then it absolves them of all responsibility to help improve the situation. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  20. #40
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    I only get angry when people act like idiots and then blame others for it. I might get a little frustrated if we wipe repeatedly on a hard encounter, especially if we're nearly there, but I never up and leave. Only groups I 'abandon' are ones that have already fallen apart.

    Seriously, people leaving because of wipes is pathetic. As are people who get what they want and then leave.

    Like a guy in Heroic Pit of Saron who leaves the moment he gets the item he needs to get his Quel'Delar, after we were patient congratulated him on getting what he needed. Didn't even say bye, just dropped group. Wouldn't have been so bad, but he was the tank, and it took nearly half an hour to get another one. Who then cleared the rest of the instance without too much trouble (well, three wipes - but no big deal).

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