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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    What I was taking issue with was the nostalgic retrospective of how before WotLK players suffered wiping on a boss over and over without complaint. Those times are past (except for those who actually wish to tackle the corresponding hardmodes). That's a good thing (in my opinion).
    Sometimes, though, you get stuck. Quitting doesn't fix the problem. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results doesn't help either, of course, but sometimes you just can't get around wiping some on a boss until you get it right. Or even a lot.

    And some puggers take it too far with "one wipe = ragequit".

    Things have shifted too far in the other direction, people are expecting milk runs 100% of the time.

    And it's a bit annoying.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    This is the tactic I've been using so far, and it works wonders. Forcing a couple people to follow a very organized set of moves is better than having the whole raid run willy-nilly evry time some fire appears.

    Plus clustering your raid makes dealing with bone spikes MUCH easier.
    Totally agreed. Wasn't disputing that at all. I just mentioned it as a word of advice to pass along to his tanks since it sounded like the strat was new for him. That's all.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    You two are missing MY point. I agree that it's not required. I think that it's a good thing that Blizzard improved their game the way it is now. If days of attempts to kill a boss were still required, that would be annoying, and I'm not exactly full of sympathy for those who wish the "good old days" back.

    What I was taking issue with was the nostalgic retrospective of how before WotLK players suffered wiping on a boss over and over without complaint. Those times are past (except for those who actually wish to tackle the corresponding hardmodes). That's a good thing (in my opinion).
    You say you understand it was never a requirement, and then you continue to suggest "days of attempts to kill a boss were [...] required." Now, i'm not sure if you're a politican or you are purposefully being two-faced about this, but honestly..

    What you take issue with is how someone can enjoy wiping for hours on new content without complaint. Let me clue you in: some people just enjoy raiding. I'm sorry if your experience with raiding was negative, if your guild spoiled what I consider the best gaming experience i've had since I first purchased Starcraft back in the early 90's. The fact is, normal modes don't have lockouts, normal modes are intended for the players who don't like min-maxing, normal modes are created for the sole purpose of appeasing the group who doesn't want to raid for hours on end just to figure an encounter out.

    My question is: Why then have hardmodes been subjected to these lockouts? Why impliment an artifical roadblock to keep casual guilds feeling like they are close to top guilds, when they clearly don't want to spend the time wiping, thinking, and strategizing?

    I mean nothing personal when I say, players like you make up a large part of the WoW populace. I don't begrudge anyone who isn't dedicated to raiding to the point that they laugh off an entire night of wipes to one encounter. What I do resent is the idea that players like youself have the temerity to suggest you like the changes that have no effect on your experience at all, and have a very negative impact on others'.

  4. #64
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    easy there cowboys.... please keep it civil.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    You say you understand it was never a requirement, and then you continue to suggest "days of attempts to kill a boss were [...] required." Now, i'm not sure if you're a politican or you are purposefully being two-faced about this, but honestly..

    What you take issue with is how someone can enjoy wiping for hours on new content without complaint. Let me clue you in: some people just enjoy raiding. I'm sorry if your experience with raiding was negative, if your guild spoiled what I consider the best gaming experience i've had since I first purchased Starcraft back in the early 90's. The fact is, normal modes don't have lockouts, normal modes are intended for the players who don't like min-maxing, normal modes are created for the sole purpose of appeasing the group who doesn't want to raid for hours on end just to figure an encounter out.

    My question is: Why then have hardmodes been subjected to these lockouts? Why impliment an artifical roadblock to keep casual guilds feeling like they are close to top guilds, when they clearly don't want to spend the time wiping, thinking, and strategizing?

    I mean nothing personal when I say, players like you make up a large part of the WoW populace. I don't begrudge anyone who isn't dedicated to raiding to the point that they laugh off an entire night of wipes to one encounter. What I do resent is the idea that players like youself have the temerity to suggest you like the changes that have no effect on your experience at all, and have a very negative impact on others'.
    I find your name quite ironic.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I find your name quite ironic.
    I see what you're pointing at, but i'm far from elitist here. I simlpy don't agree with the idea that attempt restrictions have a significant effect on anyone who wouldn't otherwise use that many attempts in a raid week.

    My guild raids 3 nights a week. We rarely commit enough time to hit our attempt limits, and it's been like that for quite some time. But, I have been in a more hardcore atmosphere, and I have good friends who still play at this level. I can understand their frustration, and I sympathise with those who would be nostalgic about content that might have been over-tuned.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    What you take issue with is how someone can enjoy wiping for hours on new content without complaint.
    Actually, no, I don't. I'm afraid that you're completely misreading what I said, and I really don't appreciate the namecalling.

    Edit: To clarify, I was responding to this particular statement:

    Players in my guild wiped for DAYS at a time on progression without batting an eyelash in vanilla, and in bc too.
    To which I responded:

    You say that as though it were a good thing.
    That you may be personally enjoying it, and other people, too, remains unquestioned. (I pointed out explicitly later that hardmodes for people who enjoy that kind of extremely challenging progression are a good thing, in my opinion.)

    Whether it's a good game design principle to generally design bosses around the assumption that it takes forever to beat them in World of Warcraft is a different thing altogether. I argue that it is not. There is no reason to be nasty about it.
    Last edited by Roana; 12-31-2009 at 04:41 PM.

  8. #68
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    The "wipe for months on end" design principle is apparent for what it is: every bit as artificial a barrier to progression as gates/lockouts/attempts/etc. No one actually enjoyed or enjoys wiping. It's just that people tolerated it more in the past because they had to. There was far less to occupy your time back then. What people call shouts of excitement on ts or vent back then were more cathartic shouts of relief.

    Further it's the sort of thing that is clearly a manifestation of mental models like the protestant work ethic and consumer capitalism i.e. keep on plugging away in the mines and you'll eventually be rewarded however slightly for your time. At a minimum the new raid design philosophy is more a meritocracy and affords you the opportunity to either spend less time in game (if that's your choice) or other aspects of the game (if that's your choice).

    This is an article from a few years ago and while I don't necessarily agree with everything in it i feel it does a good job of outlining the sorts of meritocracy/work ethic stuff I've mentioned: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...rlin_01.shtml#
    Last edited by mistersix; 12-31-2009 at 05:14 PM.

  9. #69
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    I'll endeavour to avoid further mud-slinging here. I don't think the cult of personality attacks has gained us much ground anyhow. For the record, i'm not particularly interested in the "months of wiping" method myself. As I said previously my guild isn't one that could handle content on the scale of ye old Muru (or heaven forbid they resurrected C'thun trash)... anyhow, I am so very glad we have turned this into a metaphore for the manifesto or das kapital; however I think it best to avoid such allusion when making a point as valid as the one we're getting at here.

    Let us examine facts:
    -We consider "month" to be a duration of time that is quite excessive in terms of accessing content.
    -Traditionally, we have several months between content patches
    -More recently we (as a community of raiders) waited an entire month to unlock content beyond the first wing of ICC

    The point i'm trying to make here is that our new and improved wardrobe of content implimentation has left the emperor just as naked as ever (sorry, couldn't resist). We are all still delayed a relatively equal amount of time for new content to be released. Content is still relatively restricted, although new means have been implimented. The only clearly defined diffirence between the former bourgeois system and that of our present is that content across the board has become more tense than difficult. We've gone from worrying about a disasterous 10th wipe to loosing our minds over the first one.

    I do understand the mentality of everyone who says that wiping is something we put up with rather than enjoy. I certainly don't like wiping, as I know many of us dislike our dentist appointments or some other dispeasing annual event. The truth of the matter is, that we've traded wiping (something that we do have a means of control over, even if it is small) on very difficult content for being absolutely unable to experience it for a measure of time.

    To return to the political theories, I think the old and the new are both measures of imperfection. Much like the governments at present who represent the "free market" or "socialist idealism," none are perfect, and all have their own unique flaws. I simply believe that (rosey colored glasses cast aside) prior techniques combined with some of those at present could make content all the more enjoyable as well as accessable.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    I simply believe that (rosey colored glasses cast aside) prior techniques combined with some of those at present could make content all the more enjoyable as well as accessable.
    Aye, ofcourse, Skills learned once shouldn't be forgotten tbh. Vanilla and BC players should have it easier now, for instance tanks from then learned other ways to keep aggro during those expansions.

    The truth is that we have come such a long way that a few wipes shouldn't dim your pleasure in the game. After all, what is a wipe other then an indication that that fight has a challenge for you? If everyone would be able to clear everything from the first time, wouldn't that be a reason to quit a game? As long as a wipe isn't caused by a stupidity, I'd say take it in your strides. Everyone has a need of a learning curve. And wiping for months? well, let's just say this is the case for you, it's allways the same boss you wipe on. What would your feeling be when you get it down finally?
    A boss that's killed on your 1st try is allways considered a "pussy", right? The bosses we wipe on regularily are considered elite and when we do down them, it's something to be remembered.

    Anyways, another 5 cents from me, hope this helps a bit and stops the personal attacks and all

  11. #71
    I guess the thing to remember is that what we're seeing in ICC right now are all normal modes. Of course everyone breezes through them, they're designed for pugs.

    Eventually hard modes will be released and people will go from, "omg scrubs are gettin lewts!" to "omg nerf teh Marrowgar!"

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I guess the thing to remember is that what we're seeing in ICC right now are all normal modes. Of course everyone breezes through them, they're designed for pugs.

    Eventually hard modes will be released and people will go from, "omg scrubs are gettin lewts!" to "omg nerf teh Marrowgar!"
    That's missing the point we debated here though. The debate wasn't really over old normal vs. new normal and the ebb and flow of fair-weather raiding attitudes, but a question of old "difficult" content vs. new not-as-difficult content with restrictions (ie. the attempt limits in TOGC, Algalon, and soon to be in ICC hardmodes).

  13. #73
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    My biggest concerns over the "attempts" system is that in many cases that's every bit as much a test of your isp connectivity as it is your skill. My guild has had weeks of 49 attempt kills on Anub 10man and week after week we lose an attempt to disconnects. The worst of course being when we lost 1 of 2 healers right at the start of p3.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I guess the thing to remember is that what we're seeing in ICC right now are all normal modes. Of course everyone breezes through them, they're designed for pugs.

    Eventually hard modes will be released and people will go from, "omg scrubs are gettin lewts!" to "omg nerf teh Marrowgar!"

    sounds about right. We'll all find something else to occupy our outrage/time eventually. However I do have a question if noone minds me asking...

    When you bang your head against a boss, let's say...Saurfang for example. If the pre-prescribed tactics aren't working, (which if you're using TS videos that's kinda rare, but sometimes it happens) can you really tweak your strategy to make an appreciable difference? Are there really multiple ways of defeating a boss provided that you just have to find them? Or is all the tweaking merely shifting roles and assignments to different people or people doing different rotations, etc.?

    Guess the short version is: it's okay to wipe, I'd say, if you're making progress with each wipe, but is it really possible these days to devise a different strategy than the ones we're used to just by going on the data you're getting from your particular group and this fight? Or are the fights pretty much this one way or go back to your dalaran and /cry?
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tylovan View Post
    sounds about right. We'll all find something else to occupy our outrage/time eventually. However I do have a question if noone minds me asking...

    When you bang your head against a boss, let's say...Saurfang for example. If the pre-prescribed tactics aren't working, (which if you're using TS videos that's kinda rare, but sometimes it happens) can you really tweak your strategy to make an appreciable difference? Are there really multiple ways of defeating a boss provided that you just have to find them? Or is all the tweaking merely shifting roles and assignments to different people or people doing different rotations, etc.?

    Guess the short version is: it's okay to wipe, I'd say, if you're making progress with each wipe, but is it really possible these days to devise a different strategy than the ones we're used to just by going on the data you're getting from your particular group and this fight? Or are the fights pretty much this one way or go back to your dalaran and /cry?
    I say this in the least elitist way possible: we never had trouble with saurfang. But, to answer your question, the best way i've found to try and understand what is going on with your progression wipes is to ask a lot of people, get data from your officers, meters, webstats, and basically form the best picture you can of what is happening. The more information you have, the better your chances are of seeing that obvious flaw (on saurfang, the vast majority of the time it's ranged being slow to kill beasts, or melee getting aggro from the beasts and taking a lot of hits).

    On a short-term (between wipes) scale there isn't a lot to be done other than guesstimate by meters, hear-say, and combat logs as to what should be done diffirent. But, most encounters (saurfang is no diffirent) become more easily executed with time. So don't be afraid to tell the raid to focus on one aspect of the encounter (ie. kill the %$#@ beasts fast) to the exclusion of another if your raid isn't ready/able to handle a lot of instructions at once.

    I wouldn't say the encounters these days are any more one-way or two-way than anything from previous years. I've seen quite a few methods for heandling blood beasts and marks on Overlord, so if you're just fresh outta hunters with traps, or something else you feel you need, thinking outside the box could net your guild a unique and successful strategy. You never know. Normal mode ICC really isn't tuned that hard, so don't get the feeling you just hit a brick wall.

  16. #76
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    KnThrak no offense but it just all sounds like fail to me. I don't lose aggro with my frost DK tanking...D&D / Howling Blast / BB...no problem...I also DW in frost for my dps cuz I like the high crit % and Howling Blast is my favorite end tree skill. And anyone saying frost DK's can't single target tank are retarded. Its not very hard to macro rune strike on all your attacks and cast DG or use your taunt.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    I see what you're pointing at, but i'm far from elitist here. I simlpy don't agree with the idea that attempt restrictions have a significant effect on anyone who wouldn't otherwise use that many attempts in a raid week.

    My guild raids 3 nights a week. We rarely commit enough time to hit our attempt limits, and it's been like that for quite some time. But, I have been in a more hardcore atmosphere, and I have good friends who still play at this level. I can understand their frustration, and I sympathise with those who would be nostalgic about content that might have been over-tuned.
    My comment wasn't meant as an attack. I can appreciate your points, I just know many would call your viewpoint elitist, and I got a little chuckle from the irony is all.

  18. #78
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    *shrugs* I don't even think my guild's at Saurfang right now. think they hit Marrowgar, got him down after a bit and then slammed into Deathwhisper like a semi into a wall of Titanium. I was merely using that fight as an example since some people do have trouble with it.

    I suppose analyzing the meters and data really is the best thing for it, but it is nice to know that there are possibilities to think somewhat outside the box if you're quick and you know other classes. Now all I gotta do is get my guild to understand that it's a good idea to analyze data like that, even if we are casual.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tylovan View Post
    Are there really multiple ways of defeating a boss provided that you just have to find them?
    In a word, yes. I raid quite a bit. Usually it's with my guild but sometimes on my alt dk I pug or help friends in other guilds or what not. It's been a revelation on how different strats can be and still be viable. Using Saurafang as an example still since it was brought up earlier, in my guild we commonly use the cc/knockback/focus fire strat many use. That said, I've seen some raids avoid cc/knockback altogether and simply kite/kill the adds every bit as effectively. Deathwhisper, is another interesting example. I've seen groups light on physical dps use a focus fire on adherents strat to get through the encounter.

    Good raid leaders find what works for the group and take player skill into account. They don't just follow the advice of others blindly.

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