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Thread: Great Ghostcrawler Post

  1. #1
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    Great Ghostcrawler Post

    This may be one of the best Ghostcrawler posts I've read -particularly the lines about the player base's obsession with efficiency and fear of wiping. I think it's a pretty strong inditement of things like "tanks MUST stack stamina" or "Frost DK's can't single target tank", and other "dogma".

    "It's challenging to design around misperceptions. On the one hand, you don't want to propagate stereotypes. On the other hand, I agree that at some point players just need to commit to understanding something if they are going to claim to be authorities on it.

    The player base has developed an almost neurosis about efficiency. It was one thing back in the day if you pugged Scholomance and ended up wiping 4 hours before the trash respawned. Clearly that was a waste of time and not particularly fun and the kind of situation you want to avoid at all cost. It also doesn't really happen anymore. If you get "the wrong character" to tank for you today, especially a 5-player dungeon but even a pug raid, yeah maybe the run takes slightly longer or you die once or twice. For some reason that is seen as unacceptable by players these days. They are so scared of being wrong, that they become very risk adverse.

    It does make more of a difference on cutting-edge content like hard modes, but usually the players attempting such content have a pretty solid guild or enough smart players that they aren't likely to exclude in this case a bear tank because "Yo dawg, I heard druids can't dodge no more."

    Kaz a thousand apologies if this is in the wrong place, but I kind of suck at figuring out were to put posts.

  2. #2
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    "Yo dawg, I heard druids can't dodge no more."

    A picture of Kanye West and that would make the best avatar ever.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  3. #3
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    I remember doing scholomance back when you had to 15 man it. GC is right on about this. TBC and WoTLK have totally spoiled the playerbase with how rare it is to wipe. Content just isn't HARD anymore, and if it IS hard, suddenly it's horribly broken or 'overtuned'. Witness HoR first 2 bosses.

  4. #4
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    I love the fact that HoR is challenging, but that's besides the point.

    The other thing is, as far s the neruosis about efficiency goes, is that WoW theorycrafting just goes absolutely bonkers with theorycrafting. We have page after page after thread after thread of discussions about how to maximize survivability to the fraction of a hit point, when really it just doesn't matter THAT much. Maybe if you use X trinket over Y trinket you might wipe once in 100 times, but that is how crazy we've gotten.

    I also think that as the game has developed, more and more people understand it better. So I think wiping less and clearing content faster could also be the result of people simply doing more research about the game, and frankly if blizzard wants to make hard content, they actually really have to tune around that these days!

    I still remember once when we wiped on vael at 1%, then a mage goes, "uuhhh... is vael immune to fire?"

    Boy times have changed, lol.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durenas View Post
    I remember doing scholomance back when you had to 15 man it. GC is right on about this. TBC and WoTLK have totally spoiled the playerbase with how rare it is to wipe. Content just isn't HARD anymore, and if it IS hard, suddenly it's horribly broken or 'overtuned'. Witness HoR first 2 bosses.
    I disagree. It is either quite challenging (hard modes before nerfs) or too easy (normal modes for those used to hard modes). But what you may not see is the literally thousands of casual (group/raids) that repeatedly wipe on normal modes. Condemn them if you will, but Blizzard cares for the casuals, and they want people with less skills than you to experience the content.

    Just take any average pug with full 232 Emblem of Triumph gear to Sunwell and watch what happens. I bet they wouldn't clear it.

  6. #6
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    I think its funny he talks about how players are obsessed with maximizing efficiency and wiping is unacceptable. When they design encounters around this. Having a set amount of attempts on bosses just reinforces players dislike to wipe and want/need to maximize efficiency.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    I think its funny he talks about how players are obsessed with maximizing efficiency and wiping is unacceptable. When they design encounters around this. Having a set amount of attempts on bosses just reinforces players dislike to wipe and want/need to maximize efficiency.
    Good point. The top end guilds who rarely wipe anyways aren't affected by this for long, whereas the casuals will be prevented from new content because of it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Just take any average pug with full 232 Emblem of Triumph gear to Sunwell and watch what happens. I bet they wouldn't clear it.
    Chuckle I've seen 245 equipped raids fail in TK, sometimes you just can't convince people that they really should equip those legendaries even though they aren't as "good" as their current gear.
    Same for blackwing lair... what's a onyxia cloak? We don't need that we'll kill him before he does that stupid shadowflame thingie, we're level 80 cant hurt that much.
    Chuckle.
    Last edited by Suicyco; 12-18-2009 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Aggathon Stam Czar pointed out my tiredness...it's TK lol

  9. #9
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    You mean BWL? UBRS definitely didn't require an ony cloak. And by MT I assume you mean KT.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #10
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    "Yo dawg, I heard druids can't dodge no more." Best quote ive seen in a blue post.

    Glad GC came out and said something the community has been dropping a brick ever since Icecrown Radiance was announced. We all remember Paladin vs Warrior. Sometimes we use th stat sheet too much and not look at the fight on hand. I think hes stating that instead of him that "after i crunched some numbers is appears to me druids are hurt the most" and give him something more like "last night on Saurfang...".

    And yes Kanye saying "Yo dawg, I heard druids can't dodge no more."would make a great avatar.

  11. #11
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    Last night I was spouting off in guild chat about different fallacies that are propagated by the masses about tanks these days.

    At some point someone goes, "sometime you need to just play and not listen to the numbers."

    I said, "I never go by the numbers, I go by what the situation looks like to me and winning is about the people, not the spreadsheet."

    I hate spreadsheet/recount junkies that have a gearscore of 5450 and can't step out of D&D or Cold Flame.

  12. #12
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    "Yo druid, you're doin' a great job, and I'ma let you finish, BUT YO DAWG I HEARD YOU CAN'T DODGE NO MORE... NO... MORE."
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    "Yo dawg, I heard druids can't dodge no more."

    A picture of Kanye West and that would make the best avatar ever.


    Not exactly an avatar.

  14. #14
    I have an Unholy tankspec with a permanent Ghoul, and a Frost DW DPS spec with snaring glyphed HB.

    You should see the verbal abuse I get at times...


    And yes, I have my reasons.
    I only tank 5mans and 10mans, where the 500+ DPS from the Ghoul is a nontrivial increase to the raid's total output, and I picked it up losing maybe 2%-3% Threat myself, nothing I mind so far. I didn't sacrifice survivability for it.
    I only DPS 5mans really, where HB is overused compared to the other tools, and having it snaring allows me to escape with my rocket boots in case of overaggro, or save the healer when a fresh group of adds gun for him.

    And ofc I am aware of what I lose, the threat in the tankspec I don't really mind, the ~10% autoattack damage (no BCB) in the Frost spec is so/so in a world of AEing trash.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Good point. The top end guilds who rarely wipe anyways aren't affected by this for long, whereas the casuals will be prevented from new content because of it.
    The opposite, I'd say. My guild (not exactly casual, but we have limited time each week to raid, which in this case comes down to the same thing) will be hard pressed to find the time to exhaust the limited number of attempts. The limited attempts for the end-of-wing bosses primarily affects those who have a lot of time and resources to spend.

  17. #17
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    Okay...first off, wherever this post is, I wish to read it. If anyone knows where it is or can post a link, please lemme know. I may just be being blind, but still.

    So we're afraid to wipe, eh? well that makes sense considering some things. We overgear, we put raids together with the utmost care, we stick to boss attack-plans like glue, it really does make sense. Yet it's also a shame.

    I recently got the 10-man Quick Shave achievement for Razorscale on what was most likely pure, dumb luck. Most of our group had never been in the instance before, and it was my first time actually Raid Leading with only one officer there who was just following instructions and helping as I asked. We'd wiped once on Razorscale and were back and getting ready to try it again when I noticed I had entered combat...

    I looked around to see who'd started the encounter, but the guards weren't moving, no adds, no nothing.

    Then I looked up...and saw her flying down to us...a chain attached to one of her legs.

    Turns out one of the harpoons had been ready when we wiped and was still ready when it came back up and somehow someone fired it. She came down, still doing the same attacks she normally does in the air. No adds came, nothing. Not one to question good luck, I quickly ordered everyone to burn the crud outta her. When we got to 50%, phase two proceeded like normal.

    After the fight some people were a bit concerned about how we'd completed it, simply saying that it wasn't right. The rest of us told them not to complain, we'd cleared it and that was all that counted.

    Yeah, it's not the officially prescribed way to do it, and it may even have been a glitch, but I can safely tell you that it was more fun than any of the fights we'd done. It was different, it was a risk and we took it and it paid off.

    we are wipe-a-phobes, and in a sense that's really too bad, because it inhibits our willingness to take risks and try new things aside from having a tank eat a frozen blows or a locust swarm. We don't try the instances in the 'hard' side of wow-heroes. we just don't take risks anymore, and the risk and the multitiude of ways things could come out was what made things fun.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    The opposite, I'd say. My guild (not exactly casual, but we have limited time each week to raid, which in this case comes down to the same thing) will be hard pressed to find the time to exhaust the limited number of attempts. The limited attempts for the end-of-wing bosses primarily affects those who have a lot of time and resources to spend.
    Agreed. My guild has never spend more than 10 attempts in ToGC. We aren't that hardcore. If we get stuck on something the GL will make the assessment on whether or not we're making any progress. And if we aren't we'll call the raid and try again some other time (which with our schedule often means the next lock out).

  19. #19
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    I are not like wipe prease O.o

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  20. #20
    I don't farm tons of gold. I simply don't have the time to be a "wow millionaire" neither do I think I would if I had so much disposable time. I get on and try to get content accomplished and improve some gear and most of all have some fun on the encounters they've designed. Wipes hurt me alot. Each wipe is another daily I have to do to pay for repairs. I don't care about having to run back and try again. I have no delusions about wipes being a normal part of the progression game where I'm learning the encounters. I don't even get mad at the person who caused an avoidable wipe. My game experiance however is degraded by every wipe simply for the upkeep cost. I keep up seeking gold simply because it affords me the right to go after challenges that I enjoy. I however don't enjoy farming gold so I keep it to a minimum. So... Yes. Wipes are something absolutely to avoid with some fervency.

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