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Thread: Opening Threat Considerations

  1. #1
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    Opening Threat Considerations

    One of the most notable vulnerabilities of DK tanks is in the nature of their initial threat.

    Threat has 2 notable portions that are significant to tanks:
    1.) Opening threat = holding threat through the first 15-30 sec of the fight
    2.) Cruising threat = out-pacing dps threat over the course of a longer fight

    There are 2 elements in turn that can flavor Opening threat which is generally the one place where threat is made or broken (if you are losing on cruising threat it is a gear discrepancy 95% of the time and weak player skills or poor spec choices the other 5%, though that 5% may skew up to 10% on spec problems for DKs):
    1.) Burst threat = the ability to apply a controlled burst of threat in one or two GCDs
    2.) Ramping threat = threat elements that take time to build but accumulate to a higher value provided the right steps

    As a preface, every tank has relative elements to consider.

    Warriors are very strong on the burst element. Shield Slam in and of itself is a major spike tool and can single-handedly set the scale ahead if it crits on the open. Warriors also rely on the ramping raid buff they provide to all physical dps: Sunder. Stacking sunder provides steady threat itself in Devastate, but the armor reduction is also a key element in maximizing the warrior's various physical damage tools. This isn't a terrible strict element as the debuff can be applied by others and rapidly at the beginning to facilitate everyone's dps/tps while the sunders are stacking, but it is an element of note.

    Bears have a couple very hard hitting threat abilities, particularly in Mangle and FF, and when stacked with Maul (which is very easy to use on every swing against a raid boss without rage starvation) they can do some heavy burst threat. It's not quite on the order of Warriors, but it is strong and requires no precursors (with FF even applicable at range so that both can be fired off before DPS start shooting). To get peak threat generation for single targets, however, Bears will stack Lacerate to 5 stacks which takes some time. Once fully stacked the Bear will be at peak cruising threat. This ramping is a bit more influential than a Warrior's sunder, and is unique, but it is also only in support of the burst threat generated by Mangle/FF and the gradual grinding threat of the Lacerate applications and Maul spam.

    Paladins have a variety of tools and they are not always used uniformly across the users and fights, but there are common elements. For the sake of simplicity, Protadins use a decent list of powerful abilities. Avenger's Shield like FF for Bears, allows the Paladin to get an early couple hits in before anyone else starts firing and does a decent chunk of threat. SoR, HotR, and Judgments do strong bursts of damage, though not quite on the scale of Shield Slams for Warriors. Instead it is the fact that these abilities can be chained end to end that gives Paladins the appearance of early bursts. Typically for peak threat Protadins will use Seal of Vengeance/Corruption which stacks a DoT then does bursts of damage once stacked. This build up is similar in aspect to Lacerate with one key exception: once fully stacked it provides more than the sum of its applications in the form of burst on each auto-swing *and* increased judgment size. This buff provided by the seal is entirely passive (as opposed to Lacerate which is applied through GCDs) and increases baseline threat and Judgment threat generously. Pallies also can maintain Consecrate as a sort of non-targeted DoT.

    If you were to compare these class/specs for dynamics:
    • Warriors use very large bursts, semi-staggered and relying on the player's effective use of procs, with solid small/mid-size hits to grind up in between.
    • Bears use a couple mid/large bursts more evenly spaced, and add smaller grinds and a single target element that adds a nice margin when they can focus on one target.
    • Paladins use a constant stream of strong mid-sized hits supported by small ticks of AoE, and once a reasonable time frame has passed (depending on weapon speed and possibly talent procs) they get a strong semi-passive buff to their cruising threat.

    Now Death Knights. First this becomes more complicated because typically people think of it as 4 tanks, the three above and DKs. The truth of course is that there are 6 tanks, 6 class/specs, as each of the DK trees will play differently even as they may use a tool or two in common. So, I'll touch on each tree.

    Blood is somewhat similar to Paladins in that it uses many strong but relatively mid-size hits to build and maintain threat. These hits are dependent on diseases first being applied to have their full potency however (20% reduction on HS spam without, up to 60% reduction on DS though averaging closer to 20-30%). Auto-swings, RS, and DnD do not require diseases to operate at peak threat output, on single targets that is usually 40% of total threat. Disease application will represent an obvious ramp up, and will result in the infrequent dips as diseases are reapplied (may be mitigated through glyphing), but will only be noticeable at the start of the fight, generally speaking.

    Frost is closer in appearance to Warriors. Frost DKs use a couple BIG hitting tools with a semi-variable short CD (like SnB relying on player proc response to maximize the use of the tool). Auto-swings and other abilities will provide a mid-level filler between spikes but otherwise the threat will resemble Warrior threat in profile. Frost like Blood is stronger with diseases applied, however Frost also has handy tools via glyphs and play style choices that can circumvent that. Specifically, most of Frost's tools only require one disease Frost Fever, to be applied for peak damage output, and that disease can be applied by one of the major threat tools, provided glyphing. Without that glyph the setup time is similar to Blood, but followed by larger spikes.

    Unholy is fairly without comparison in the tanking styles. Unholy relies very heavily on DoTs to create a baseline burn of threat punctuated by small and mid-sized hits applied over top. Diseases are an important part of that build and will be key elements. Unholy generally lacks the biggest burst elements, but trades them for many stacking components that set a strong baseline. Beyond the shared initial ramp up from applying diseases the only ramp up that Unholy sports is in the slow build of Unholy Blight, but that will represent a pretty small component in the overall equation.

    The shared element of all DKs that is a distinct vulnerability is in the presetting of diseases, so let's consider a couple possibilities and measure the relative start up values of the 6 tanks.

    <this is shaping up to take more work than I have time for>

    If anyone wants to share here is what I'm looking for:
    Your first 10 GCDs (15 sec) of a fresh fight, what is the typical sequence you use. Accepting this has some variability for spec and procs, post it below and we'll do some casual data collection.
    Last edited by Satorri; 02-12-2010 at 10:31 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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  2. #2
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    As always Satorri you think about the minutia the rest of us overlook. Im curious what your total observation will be. My experiments have lead to these comparisons between Blood and Frost tanking (I MT ICC as Blood, and MT heroics as Frost, gear is almost equivalent ~245 or greater in both sets [Hit and Expertise (soft)capped in both specs]):

    Frost's burst threat via HB and BB provides an excellent opener, however its baseline crusing threat is considerablly lower. I find that in heroics Ill quickly switch to Blood for the final boss due to its higher baseline threat. Blood on the otherhand is far weaker when pulling trash or with add waves (Precious for instance I switch to Frost). In testing Ive noticed that Frost will provide close to 5k TPS (read off Omen) single target and close to that on multiple targets. Its advantage is there is very little rampup as you stated. But Ive noticed that even when cruising the threat tends to top off around there, with very few spikes.

    Blood being my perfered spec for raiding provides me with a slower ramp up than Frost, however when in combination of Empowered Rune Weapon the spec and generate the necessary initial threat prior to the DPS getting their rotation running. With this set up the only threat issue I have found is with my Druid OT when he gets an early crit before my HS. Combinded with ERW I can hit ~14k TPS in the start up. Cruising Im floating at ~9k TPS with spikes popping up to 11k.

    I will say that I originally switched (in Uldar) to Blood tanking from Frost because I needed better single target TPS, and even now I still havent observed any changes to that relationship. I will say that the burst/starting TPS of any raid boss relies on using ERW, regardless of spec, and while cruising using RP and Blood Tap to fill in gaps/save rotations is a standard.

    Although I doubt this will differ your opinion on the observations, I just wanted to report some additional data for your study.

  3. #3
    Good post, a few thoughts.

    Single target Blood 56/8/7 (RS macro'd)

    A. First 10 GCDs:

    1. IT
    2. PS
    3. HS
    4. HS
    5. DS
    6. DC (maybe not immediately after, depends on SoB and RS procs)
    7. HS
    8. HS
    9. HS
    10. HS

    Use Pestilence in place of a HS when diseases need refreshing.

    B. Initial threat ramp-up challenges:

    1. Both diseases up, takes 2 GCDs.
    2. Bloody Vengeance, 3 stacks, requires 3 crits, time till 3 stacks up is RNG-dependent.
    3. Abomination's Might, usually up by 1st DS, sometimes sooner if HS procs it.
    4. Rune Strike, procs less frequently in ICC, which can be problematic on initial pull.

    Single-target 2H Frost 15/51/5 (RS macro'd)

    A. First 10 GCDs:

    1. IT
    2. PS
    3. OB
    4. BS
    5. BS
    6. FS (maybe multiple, depending on SoB and RS procs)
    7. OB
    8. OB
    9. BS
    10. BS

    HB when Rime procs, and throw in a FS whenever RP hits 100, and a Pestilence in place of BS when diseases need refreshing.

    B. Challenges:

    1. Both diseases up, 2 GCDs
    2. Short disease duration, but that's a cruising issue, not initial ramp-up issue.
    3. KM and Rime procs in first few GCDs help alot, but unreliable RNG.
    4. Priority dilemma: After IT and PS, do I first OB for threat, or first BSx2 to get Blade Barrier up?
    5. Rune Strike, procs less frequently in ICC, which can be problematic on initial pull.

    Multi-target 2H Frost (15/51/5) (RS macro'd)

    A. First 10 GCDs:

    1. HB
    2. DnD
    3. BB
    4. FS dump
    5. HB
    6. OB
    7. BB
    8. FS dump
    9. HB
    10. OB

    Not every HB in that list can be used due to the 8s cd, so when that cd still on, OB instead. But for trash tanking the first GCDs are always enough to build an insurmountable threat lead, as long as the dps are just AoE'ing and no dps are focus-firing an off-target.

    B. Challenges: None for multi-target, works beautifully.
    Last edited by Kurtosis; 02-14-2010 at 06:46 PM.

  4. #4
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    Humm Interesting idea.

    2H Blood Spec.

    Single Target: Room Position Irrelevant :
    1. Icy Touch, Used as soon as boss body aggros usualy.
    2. Plague Strike, Activated so it strikes as soon as i hit Melee Range. Im usualy Running through the boss before the next GCD can trigger.
    3. Heart Strike
    4. Heart Strike
    5. Death Strike
    6. HoW
    7. Death Coil
    8. Death Strike
    9. Heart Strike
    10. Heart Strike

    Caveats: Rune Strike is bound to every ability for maximum useage. This rotation is only used if in 100% confident that what im attacking does not require specific positioning.

    Single Target: Position REQUIRED :
    1. DnD, Drop this around where i want the boss to Be.
    2. Icy Touch
    3. Plague Strike
    4. Heart Strike
    5. HoW
    6. Death Strike, Note: Due to rune blackouts i save ALL Runic power between 5 and 6 for rune strikes. There is a signifigant gap where im fine tuneing position and observeing the status of the encounter so far.
    7. Heart Strike
    8. Death Strike
    9. Heart Strike
    10. Heart Strike, I usualy break a set pattern at around 9 on this list to be more reactive to the encounter. Priority: Rune Strikes> Diseases Up> Blood Runes CD> FU Pairs> RP Dumps

    AOE:
    1. DnD
    2. Icy Touch
    3. Plague Strike
    4. Pestilence
    5. Blood Tap
    6. Blood Boil
    7. Death Strike
    8. Blood Boil
    9. Blood Boil
    10. Blood Boil

    Priority: Rune Strikes> Diseases Up> DnD> Blood Boil> Death Strike.

  5. #5
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    My first few GCDs probably look similar to any other DK that plays my spec/glyphs (GoD Blood):

    Single target threat:
    - IT
    - PS
    - HS
    - HS
    - DS
    - DS
    - HS
    - HS
    - HS
    - Pest

    Single target survival:
    - IT
    - PS
    - DS
    - HS
    - HS
    - DS
    - DS
    - HS
    - Pest

    AoE (raids):
    Afk while my Frost specced co-tank does stuff.

    AoE (heroics):
    - DnD
    - IT
    - PS
    - Pest
    - Rune tap + blood boil
    - Blood boil
    - Death Strike
    - Blood boil

    There are a couple tricks for initial threat that I have picked up though that can be pretty useful if you don't have a hunter in your group/raid.

    - If feasible, start with Death and Decay for single target. Any situation where there is RP or some other pre-fight consideration before the fight starts (NRB, Jaraxxus, airship adds, DBS), any time there is a predictable phase change where you aren't doing anything important (NRB, Marrowgar, P2 Deathwhisper most of the time), or any time you pull a boss into position rather than running up to it (Twin Val'kyr, Putricide, Princes) is a good candidate for this; if you time it so that there are ~6 seconds between when you drop DnD and when you start doing a typical single target threat rotation on the target you will pretty much get 5 ticks of DnD for zero rune cost.

    - In situations where you have to run in on something, generate runic power while the pull is being setup and the fight is being discussed. As a Blood Elf with two points in morbidity, I can get around 50-55 RP pretty quickly (VB, rune tap, blood tap, horn of winter, death and decay, and arcane torrent; all of these except for horn of winter and death and decay are off the GCD so you can do this very quickly) and then maintain it with death and decay and horn of winter. If the setup lasts long enough for arcane torrent to recharge, sometimes I can get enough RP for two death coils as I run in.

  6. #6
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    I wasn't specific but I find it interesting to note that while openings are fairly consistent, no one notes the unfillable GCDs that accompany the Rune system sometimes inevitably in the start of a cold fight (meaning you have no RP at the start).

    Basically, with no RP you will run through your first 6 runs generally in 5 GCDs (7.5 sec) and the first you used won't be off CD until 2.5 sec later. That means if you're lucky (or maybe unlucky or foolish) you might be able to put 1 DC in there, or you can open with Blood Tap which will fill one GCD, but generally you will have 1.0 sec of another that is lost/deferred (and/or eaten away by aggregate latency losses).

    That is DK threat vulnerability #2. One of the perks of Paladining is that you unless you run out of mana which is uncommon you can use the 696 rotation method to always have a spell to cast on each GCD, which feels good as a tank. Warriors and Bears so long as they are flush with rage, which is common in raids, can do the same. It is possible for DKs to have unavoidably empty GCDs, which has been the case all along, and usually it's something tanks who've switched classes to DKs usually pick out as a bone of contention (and PM me to find out if they're doing something wrong, ha ha).

    Also, I'd love to open this up to non-DKs as well if anyone wants to share that so we can look at specific numbers. I want to create a sort of graphed threat generation/total threat to see if it shows anything meaningful (I suspect it might and I can generate one from my head but I want to get some corroborating move use info).
    Last edited by Satorri; 02-13-2010 at 05:17 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #7
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    Yea in my experience the weakest few seconds of a fight are right at the start. Until i lay out 1-2 Rune strikes i can have aggro ripped right from me. To cover this period its a good idea to have a hunter or rogue in the group able to Misdirect threat to you for those crucial few seconds.

    I generaly have a good Threat lead when cruiseing so blackouts arent so bad but there are periods when im just standing there doing nothing. I try and fill them with Tap and Horn but thats not always the case.

  8. #8
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    Are there any potions you can pop prior to the start of the fight that would give you RP? I seem to remember some when I was levelling, but don't know how readily available they are now, as I never went back to check.

  9. #9
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    I have long been a blood tank and here's my opening rotation on any given boss fight

    IT
    PS
    (hysteria here if you're really wanting some uber threat)
    DS
    HS
    HS
    ERW
    DS
    HS
    HS
    HS
    HS
    DC
    DC
    IT
    PS
    Normal blood rotation from here on out

    This rotation fits perfectly with diseases as you'll never have to reapply them in this opening rotation. I also like this rotation a lot because you never lose GCD at all in the first 10 strikes. And usually you have enough RP to get two DC's off at the end where there is a gap.
    With a MD or a tricks, this usually peaks at about 17-20k TPS (just from watching omen, not sure really what it is)

    But if a DPS decides to nuke before I get my diseases up (I'm looking at you ret pallies), or if another tank hits it before i get my diseases up, I don't have much chance to catch up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Are there any potions you can pop prior to the start of the fight that would give you RP? I seem to remember some when I was levelling, but don't know how readily available they are now, as I never went back to check.
    I remember getting some in the DK's starting quests (from 55 to 58), but I dont know of any way to get more.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    I remember getting some in the DK's starting quests (from 55 to 58), but I dont know of any way to get more.
    afaik the only way to get them was collecting human skulls for noth, who was standing at the plagued field. so if you aren't about to ask him in naxx if he'd share some drinks with you, i fear there is no way to get them anymore.

    @topic: i'm currently leveling my warrior tank alt and i have to admit i'm more then jealous about the (ranged-) burst thread of this class. imo the "problem" about dk thread isn't as much about the first few gcds, but more about having no real ranged snap thread skills, which can be important especially against raid bosses. while paladins have 2 high-thread ranged abilities (one with casttime of course), and warriors/druids at least have their charges to instanly put themselfes in melee range, my blood tank has none of these (as dg doesn't work against bosses). so with a "cold" start, the only way to pull a boss is icy touch, wich does roughly 1k dmg, has 20y range and even uses spellhit, so in a few cases it might miss even if i'm at 8% melee cap.
    Last edited by Xed; 02-14-2010 at 05:03 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Are there any potions you can pop prior to the start of the fight that would give you RP? I seem to remember some when I was levelling, but don't know how readily available they are now, as I never went back to check.
    You can get pots in the starting quests that give you 50 RP, but you cannot own more than 20 at a time (if I'm remembering right) and there is no way to get more once you leave the starting area. I actually have some sitting in my bank imagining a situation where it could be valuable, but the fact that I can't get more has left me reluctant to use them, ever. Kind of funny how that works. (In the same vein, <3 my kitteh friend who has a Bag of Marbles to save tanks in hairy attempts so we can squeak it out).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #13
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    Well, with bosses, you shouldn't have to worry about ranged versus non ranged snap threat as long as you have some sort of snap threat right off the bat. No body should be attacking the boss as you run in, even with paladins, and most bosses require that you have to position them anyways. It does make a bigger difference on the trash and adds though.

    What I have been experimenting with as blood on the pull is just moving PS to the end of the first batch of attacks and doing my second Death Strike before the dump rather than after. So I:

    IT->HS->HS->DS->DS->PS->DUMP

    I don't lose anything doing IT first as you can do that as you run towards the boss, but I am not sure if that buys me anything yet. It kinda messes with the rotation, but that is harder for me to gauge at this moment on random adds (I really just need to sit at a training dummy and see what it does to the rotation overall)

  14. #14
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    Blood Single target(Boss):

    IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-ERW-DS-HS-HS-HS-HS-DC spam

    Blood multi-target

    DnD-IT-PS-Pest-BT-BB-tab DC Dump BB-DS-DS-BB

    Frost Single Target (boss)

    IT-PS-Oblit-BS-BS-ERW-Oblit-Oblit-Oblit-HB (I usually have KM/Rime procced)

    Frost multi-target

    DnD-HB-BB-BT-BB-tab FS dump-Oblit-HB-BB-BB-HB(rime)

    For boss fights, I like using ERW after the first set of runes to really establish my threat.
    Last edited by Miste; 02-14-2010 at 10:25 AM.

  15. #15
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    Im against using ERW in order to get initial aggro on a single target boss. As satori wrote is his guide, I feel that this ability is more of an "emergency" button, just incase if you need to get aggro on somthing such as a "emergency" If you need to use a IBF, AMS, VB/UA/BS. Typically Blood tap can be used for UB/UA/BS, until the 4pc (12% dmg reduction), which I use as a chained cd. Most of the time aggro should never get so bad that you cant break your rotation for 1 UA/VB/BS. As many have posted in replies above, tricks/MD should be used at the beggining of the fight anyway. Dk snap aggro isnt as good as the other tanks, all it takes it a bit of skill. Once you set up shop such as DoTs, and stacking dmg modifiers such as Bloody vengeance and pop some rune strikes, you'll be set.

  16. #16
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    The problem with comparing the two types of threat is that one matters, the other doesn't. No tank spec or style will ever suffer from cruising threat... TPS has been increased to the point where it is virtually impossible to ever lose agro over a sustained fight.
    Burst threat is where the tanks are different, and burst threat is where threat difficulty comes into play.
    For burst scenarios, opening with diseases is generally a pretty poor decision. DS - HS - HS - Disease will provide a much larger burst gain at virtually no sustained cost.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zegil View Post
    Im against using ERW in order to get initial aggro on a single target boss. As satori wrote is his guide, I feel that this ability is more of an "emergency" button, just incase if you need to get aggro on somthing such as a "emergency" If you need to use a IBF, AMS, VB/UA/BS. Typically Blood tap can be used for UB/UA/BS, until the 4pc (12% dmg reduction), which I use as a chained cd. Most of the time aggro should never get so bad that you cant break your rotation for 1 UA/VB/BS. As many have posted in replies above, tricks/MD should be used at the beggining of the fight anyway. Dk snap aggro isnt as good as the other tanks, all it takes it a bit of skill. Once you set up shop such as DoTs, and stacking dmg modifiers such as Bloody vengeance and pop some rune strikes, you'll be set.
    In a single target boss fight, what emergency are you waiting for? BT should be used with our spec cooldown for emergencies. IBF would be the only thing I would use ERW for, but I tend to stay above 20 RP. If I'm having to chain cooldowns unexpectedly, the fight is probably a wipe anyhow. The ICC boss fights are rather unforgiving.

    Snap aggro is a concern with a few fights in ICC. Festergut and Blood Queen are pure DPS races. Being able to generate as much threat as possible in the beginning allows the DPS to go all out once their ramp up time is complete. Yes, in 25 man raids you should always get MD and tricks. However, in 10 man it is not as common. I don't have a rogue or hunter in my 10 man group. As the MT, initial aggro is important to me. It's hard to retrain DPS to not open as quickly in 10 man as they do in 25 man. DKs need some sort of on demand threat generator that we can use early in a fight. Frost has Death Chill, which does a reasonable job of copying the front loaded threat of mangle or shield slam. The other trees could use something similar.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I wasn't specific but I find it interesting to note that while openings are fairly consistent, no one notes the unfillable GCDs that accompany the Rune system sometimes inevitably in the start of a cold fight (meaning you have no RP at the start).

    Basically, with no RP you will run through your first 6 runs generally in 5 GCDs (7.5 sec) and the first you used won't be off CD until 2.5 sec later. That means if you're lucky (or maybe unlucky or foolish) you might be able to put 1 DC in there, or you can open with Blood Tap which will fill one GCD, but generally you will have 1.0 sec of another that is lost/deferred (and/or eaten away by aggregate latency losses).
    The Blood build I've been using lately includes Scent of Blood, and RS is macro'd to everything. So in addition to HS, DS spam, RS is also proc'ing pretty frequently. During those downtimes when all runes are on cd I continue spamming HS / DS just to make sure RS continues hitting. Sometimes it procs in that downtime, sometimes not, but over the course of the first 10 GCDs it has proc'd enough to compensate for a few GCDs with everything else on cd. Those downtimes are a little annoying, but this build seems to compensate enough threat-wise.

  19. #19
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    I can not stand builds that exclude Hysteria. It's such a good talent for a 1 point investment. Threatwise even it would far exceed the 1/3 SoB if that was your chief concern.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I can not stand builds that exclude Hysteria. It's such a good talent for a 1 point investment. Threatwise even it would far exceed the 1/3 SoB if that was your chief concern.
    /signed

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