I am looking for a loot system for my small guild. We primarily run 10 man continent, but are still fairly serious about it. We just aren’t prepared to make the time commitment to logistically plan 25’s. In guild I have about a pool of about 15-20 raiders that are geared for raiding. Depending on the night and what we need, 1-2 slots in our 10 mans are up for grabs every week. And while I am glad we are getting new gear, I would rather it go in the hands of some one that shows up each and every single week even if it means getting nothing but a repair bill.
So far we just use the fairly basic system of /roll 1000 main spec, /roll 100 off, with main spec always taking priority. And this has worked out pretty well so far, but in a few cases, some of my core raiders that show up 95% of the time are loosing out to people that show up once a month. We full cleared ICC so far, but in light of new dungeon I am hoping to get a new system so everyone gets the gear they deserve.
I had an eye towards suicide kings, it looks very low frills and easy to maintain. However it does seem to reward NOT showing up to raids so your name just floats to the top, as well as not taking an upgrade you probably need so your name remains high. Both are things I don’t want to encourage. As well I was wondering how that actually applies with alts. Almost all of my raiders have at least 1-2 80 alt’s that are geared for raiding, and depending on what we need for that night they are switched in and out. I am not quite sure how I would want to implement people in to that, I don't want alt's to be totally neglected, but at the same time I sure as hell don't want them to steal gear from mains.
I a bit trepidatious about doing loot council, while I think my officers and I can make fair use of it, I don't want to invite any undue drama that I feel that could bring.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this, a suggestion for another system or a way to work around SK for what I need?
Thanks!
The people showing up once a month get fewer shots at the gear. Apart from that, it's all in the roll.Originally Posted by Liquidska
What you are saying is that the people showing up less don't deserve the loot. That's not quite true in my opinion. After all, they worked for their loot too, didn't they?
Now, if they were being boosted through the dungeon, or if they are constantly screwing up because they couldn't be bothered to learn the fight, that's different.
Look into EGPG (or is it EPGP? I get fuzzy when it's random letters) and DKP. Both allow for weighting of rolls or point systems that reward attendance.
Mains before alts can be enforced outside of any other loot systems or to go with any/ all systems, it's pretty much a stand alone rule for most guilds.
Now rolling for a spec you aren't playing in this particular run is where it can get hairy. For single role players who might have two DPS/ tank/ healing specs it's generally not a problem. Issues arise for shaman, druids & pallys most often because the different specs have dramatically different needs. For some guilds requiring individuals to pick a 'main' spec works. A very few allocate each spec a different DKP/ point value (as though they were two separate characters) which evens the field on the larger class roles.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
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I am not saying they don't deserve loot, but when a group grinds out the strageys, suffers the wipes, and shows up consistantly to make a raid happens. That raider should have priority over someone that just joined up for that boss. I know what you mean and by odds alone, showing up to a raid more often should get you the pieces you want, but I think we both know that it doesn't always work out that way.
I thought about approaching EPGP, but it looks like a decent amount of work, although it would be fairly effective. I may do that but I was hoping for a system that had a little less book keeping to it.
Fair doesn't exist.
You can solve it with ranks. We have raider, member and tryout rank where a higher rank gives automatic priority on mainspec gear. Offsspec howeveer is kinda free, a tryouts mainspec goes before a raiders offsspec.
This is however for 25 men content. For 10 men we mostly /roll where ofteen people win and are like:nahhh give it to the other.
Suicide Kings - You don't actualy move up the list if you're not at the raid.
E.G
1. Player A
2. Player B
3. Player C
4. Player D
5. Player E
Player D isn't on the raid but everyone else is, Player B recieves some loot so the list will now look like;
1. Player A
2. Player C
3. Player E
4. Player D
5. Player B
You see How Player D isn't rewarded since he didn't come to the raid. He is stil in the same position for loot as he was.
However obviously you still stand in the position of waiting for the trinkets and weapons to drop and trying to get to top of list so you have priority. This problem can also occure in DKP though.
You can have rules to combat this a little such people MUST roll on upgrades, so if you see somebody who needs an item that dropped but isn't rolling for it, you pull them up on it. However you should still allow people to pass items to somebody who needs it more, but they should be seen to be Needing the item first.
/Tahriel.
Oh. That's a very clever twist. I like it. That solves my problem fairly handidly. Although, while I do agree that forcing a person to take an upgrade is a good thing, one player in particular is extremly picky about his loot. Granted it pays off for him and he is the highest deeps by a fair margin, but he tends to pass on a lot of lewt as is. I just wonder how people like him would react to me trying to make them take loot. It's impratical for me to figure out everyone's spec and I will just throw all the plate gear with ArP on it to him.
Forcing loot on your highest dee-pee-es is not a very smart idea. He's being picky about loot and it works.
This should be done to players who are passing clear upgrades which hampers their performance just to get imbaweapon or imbatrinket. And underperform in the process.
For 10-mans I was generally remiss to use any system, but I had a group of friends and we were happy to see that any drop went to the best home, no one had a problem passing to their teammates.
That said, if you want a simple system, I used this through mid-Ulduar in 25s and I'll explain why we ended up using our version of SK instead.
The idea is simple. The loot master just keeps a piece of paper at hand. Every time gear drops that you want, you roll. The loot master keeps a list of who wins. Whoever has won the least gets the item and the rolls decide the ties.
The system will fairly evenly distribute gear across the people who want things, but leaves the ability in players' hands if they want to not roll on something to make sure they have a shot at something else later. Likewise, if someone wants only one or two things, they won't lose that roll to someone who's gotten 4 other drops already.
The one problem with this system depends on how far you stretch the memory of the system. If you do it only for each raid (which we did) then it has no bias between new or infrequent raiders and regulars (aside from the possibility that the infrequent raiders want and get more loot that the regulars already have). In theory if you stretch out the timeline, that could encompass attendance as well.
If you want you can also break loot into sub-groups. In Naxx, for example, we did one list for non-set epics and one for tier tokens.
SK is pretty simplistic and accomplishes the same thing, though my one issue with SK is that if I am waiting on one major upgrade, and something else that I want and would get an upgrade from drops, if I win that item I lose my chance at the major upgrade. I ended up losing a few drops because I didn't want to lose a shot at the major item (2-handed weapon had to compete with dps for, so lots of competition), and lost the offspec rolls to other people, even though it was a tanking item that I would benefit from.
It's hard for things to be fair, but I think in a broader focus, it's very much in your interest to foster a feeling of team-centric thinking. If people are willing to see gear go where it is best used, even if it is not themselves, it can go a long way beyond just looting. That's a hard thing though if your values emphasize individual performance, as that tends to make people often favor themselves before the team. It's kind of paradoxical.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
We do straight /roll in 10 man, but we use EPGP in 25 man. It's pretty easy to set up and very easy to use. One of the advantages of EPGP over SK in my mind is that if you have a player that is there 99.9% of the raids and a guy who shows up once every 2 months, the high attendance guy can still win 2-3 items before the low attendance guy. Unlike DKP, the system doesn't have to balance, so it's easy to give out EP rewards when people do things you like, like showing up on time. Also, it have built in decay (which you can adjust), so that people who had high priority, then went afk for 6 months, have somewhat lower priority when they come back.
We use Suicide Kings, as a poster earlier mentioned, you only move up in
the list if two conditions are satisfied:
1) Someone higher than you (closer to position 1) bids and wins the item
2) You are in the raid
As for alts, we have alts and mains use the same spot in the list, while this
can reward alts over other mains, it's your choice as raid organizer who
you are inviting in to the raid. Additionally, the onus is on the players to
understand which gear will benefit not only them, but also the raid in general.
The one big deficiency (in my mind) that Suicide Kings has, is that you
are only rewarded if loot drops. You may spend hours working/wiping
on new content without downing a boss, and those that worked on the
content get no reward (from the system). Whereas a DKP or other system
may choose to award some points based on "time spent".
Hope this helps!
I'd go with either SK or EPGP. I've used both. Our current system is EPGP in 25 mans. I am familiar with SK from vanilla wow. If either system is implemented and tuned to your guild, they are both very fair. If you are trying to encourage attendance/consistency/reward people for their effort, it's the way to go.
Now I did a bit more reasearch, and while SK does seem to be a pretty solid system and still something I am intersted in. I found what appears to be an relavitvly older system called Ni Karma
It looks fairly simple. I was going to use a modifed version of what appears on wowwiki. (It looks like that is a base 100 for main set)
Good Karma
Everyone starts with 0 Karma. You accumlate karma acording to the following chart.
+50 karma for showing up for raid on-time ready to go.
+50 karma at the end of the run
+25 karma for replacing a dropped out member
+25 karma per boss kill (Will only apply in ICC)
+50 karma for wiping an extended amount of time on a new boss fight (Officers discretion)
+50 karma for "Helping guild as a whole" (Officers descreation)
-25 karma for delaying raid, (being AFK for extended amount of time)
When an item drops, you declare if you are using karma or not. If not, then roll /1000 as normal. If you are, you roll and add your Karma score as a bonus. If you win, you recive the item and your karma is cut in half. You are encouraged to use your karma early and often, the longer you wait the bigger karma loss you take.
No karma cap, horde as much karma as you like.
If ever asked to come on an alt by raid leader, the Karma can be applied to your main raider or your alt. You can only use karma when you are currently on that charcter. Karma can be transfered to an alt, but at 1/2 value.
You are not forced to spend Karma, spend it on the items you want.
Karma can not be used for offspec. Can not spend more then 500 at any one time.
Thoughts? I haven't approached my guild about this, but it seems very flexible.
How is this significantly different than most DKP systems?
As I understand it, a raider with DKP versus one with out DKP will always get loot. In this, a total lowbie can walk in to a raid and still get loots if he rolls high enough. I like the element of randomness, while at the same time encouraging peopel to roll on each and every upgrade for themselves with out requiring them to blow all their karma.
The loot system you use has to be tailored to what your raid group is focused on as well.
If you're looking at raids in terms of encounter progression, loot isn't a reward. Really. It's not. It's a tool to be utilized in order to best improve the raid as a whole for the next challenge(s) you face. A strict analog of this would be to use a loot council system and selectively pick and choose where gear needs to go in order to best suit the *raid*. Give that IMBA high end weapon to your dpser that will benefit from it the most (weighted by likely subsequent attendance... not past attendance) so that you get a 100 DPS increase instead of the 40 DPS increase had you given it to the guy that "deserved" it.
<enter drama/>
Once you start looking at the loot itself as a reward for raiding you're going to have to make a few hard decisions and create a little drama in the short term in order to stave off drama in the long term. The best thing you can do to keep a focus on progression while still trying to be as fair as possible to your raiders are the following (regardless of your loot system):
1. Limit your pool of raiders so that you only have a handful of 'extra' folks to fill spots in and rotate folks week by week.
2. Design your raid group with a relatively equal smattering of gear types.
Having 20 people trying to fit in 10 spots, regardless of how available any of them is, means that you're diluting your raid's gearing needs. If you end up focusing too much on just a handful of the folks, many of the others will get behind to the point that when they come you begin wiping (or at least having trouble) on bosses you previously thought farmable. Mind you this doesn't necessarily mean you have to boot folks out of the guild, but using a rank system like orcstar suggested is an alternative.
Similarly if you've got 2 plate tanks and 18 clothie heals/dps it's going to take all the more time to get those clothies geared up while you're simultaneously sharding mail and leather gear like crazy. That's an extreme example, but I'm sure you get the drift.
If you don't have the balls to address those issues it really won't matter what loot system you choose because ultimately it isn't going to be truly *raid* focused. If you're designing the whole thing just to appease as many folks as possible you'll progress slower and you'll have to deal with inevitable drama regarding one person's worthiness to get loot or another person's inability to ever get invited to raids. If you manage not to then your guild is chock full of saints and I want to steal a few from ya.
Addendum: Personal opinion is that if you're running 10s just /roll. You'll occasionally end up having a newbie or infrequent raider come in and rack up or even 'steal' loot from your veterans, but there's always next week right? If you cleared it once you should be able to do so again and it doesn't take very long at all to gear up even 20 folks if you're able to reliably clear 10s content. Your veterans may just have to be content with waiting a few more weeks before getting their IMBA weapon of awesomesauce.
Last edited by Garrek; 12-18-2009 at 04:49 PM.
We had to make exactly the same decision as you a few weeks ago.
We decided that DKP, EPGP and the variety of other points-based systems weren't reliable because they cant exercise any logic. Some people simply wont deserve an item - but will win it because they've taken less loot than someone who completely deserves it.
I'd strongly advise you to reconsider loot council. That way you're completely in control. On the drama front, we laid down clear rules regarding loot and haven't had a single complaint about it yet.
We use a DKP system to track attendance and how many items the person has already had from us to make sure things dont get out of preportion. After that - common sense. Something a points based system will never fully master.
Every system is just as terrible as the next one in the right situation. They key is to find a system YOUR guild can deal with, and monitor it well enough to make sure that loop-hole (or loopholes) is not being abused by your guild members.
Personally we do rolls in 10man, and a strait dkp system for 25. We've found the more lassiez fair we are about dkp, the better things work out. When we find an abuser, it's usually obvious and we can take them aside or remove them if need be.
-Dkp per kill
-Open bid
-no 'officer discretion' bonuses
-BUT, officers may dock dkp if abuse is noticed
At various points we fooled with adding rank, soft-caps, bonuses, etc. to the system, but it always ended up causing more trouble than it was worth. IMO it is a lot easier to use a very simple system and make it WELL known to your members that abuse of the system is going to get them removed from the guild. So long as you don't have a roster full of loot-hounds, you'll do just fine.
It depends on who you are raiding with. In 10 man (ie. all the content we do) we just use a common sense method but we are all mature enough and know each other well enough to allow this to work.
Xíanth <Valkyria>
I think on a small scale like that, community decided loot is most often the best choice. It just gets too conspiratory when you add a few more players and the level of trust drops significantly. Thus you have more elaborate systems in 25man paradigms.
My 10man team randoms, but we do know each other well enough to pass on a roll if it's clearly more beneficial to another player (or if someone feels they're already recieved a lot of loot that night or raid week).
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