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Thread: Comprehensive Guide to Death Knight Tanking

  1. #541
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    With regards to single-disease versus double-disease. Single-disease you are sparing an unholy rune for an earlier obliterate. Double-disease your obliterates hit harder. Or at least that's how i understood it when i read the guide and tried it out for myself. I've already tanked both ways and it's not a make or break difference it just boils down to what is easier for you/what you prefer.

    Have fun

    Bit off topic, i've read posts that DRW now transfers the damage it deals as threat back to the death knight and isn't acting like a pet anymore (http://pwnwear.com/forum/topic128.html). My view is that it continues to act like a pet (although i neither have made calculations nor actually tested it in game for a long time). Threatwise it wouldn't make sense speccing for it: if you have threat problems it's not the 50% damage of a DRW that will help you. In the video that is linked I feel the threat generated might be simply from casting DRW not the actual weapon's attacks. Am I wrong in my thoughts?

  2. #542
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    I'll enumerate the exact values for simplicity. =)

    Single Disease:
    • Ramp up much faster but to a lower cruising threat on single targets, *very* minimal loss on multiple targets (~4-6% from losing Blood Plague).
    • On single targets you lose 12.5% OB dmg, 25% BS dmg, and the dmg from PS+Blood Plague, and the dmg/threat from IT.
    • Gain one more OB in every 2 rune sets (if you OB on FU pairs that is a 33% increase in OBs fired), which in turn can produce more Rime procs.
    • Here Glyph of HB enables this by maintaining your disease without having to use IT, though this is *far* less appealing now than when the guide was originally written.
    Single Disease loses very little on AoE but loses a lot now on single targets because of the ridiculous threat on IT, combined with the same marginal losses from BS, and possibly whatever glyph you could've used in place of HB.

    Double Disease by contrast means you get harder hitting OB/BS, and more disease damage. That can really add up on the single targets.


    To answer your question from there, you *can* use the Glyph of HB with a double-disease method, but it is rather less important, and with the threat value of IT now it is really just an insurance policy to be sure that your Frost Fever is always up. You'll almost certainly get more raw threat value from most any other glyph.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealq View Post
    i've read posts that DRW now transfers the damage it deals as threat back to the death knight and isn't acting like a pet anymore (http://pwnwear.com/forum/topic128.html). My view is that it continues to act like a pet (although i neither have made calculations nor actually tested it in game for a long time). Threatwise it wouldn't make sense speccing for it: if you have threat problems it's not the 50% damage of a DRW that will help you. In the video that is linked I feel the threat generated might be simply from casting DRW not the actual weapon's attacks. Am I wrong in my thoughts?
    DRW does in fact give you threat, but it doesn't get the Frost Pres bonus. That means it translates roughly into a 25% increase in tps for the time it is active. I agree that it is *not* a patch if you have threat problems otherwise, but that isn't to say it isn't worth it. It can definitely be a nice tool for padding your burst threat, provided you have the 60 RP saved up.

    The fine print for me is that, as a tank, it is kind of hard to pull out as often or as early as you would like. It costs 60 RP, and if you respect RS you won't want to use it unless you have 80+ RP to make sure you don't black out RS when you can help it. This will have a particular effect on your threat if you use it frequently. You will not be able to dump DCs as often, which may leave you with holes where you are waiting rather than firing something (though it is not enforced). DRW will surely get you more threat per RP and more damage than DC, especially if you are dropping points off of Morbidity to get it and other late-Blood delights.

    It can be a fine tool to use, but I've generally avoided it only because I prefer focusing on the utility and frequency of DC, and I'm less feeling the need to give myself burst dps or threat the way DRW can offer.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #544
    Hey guys, check out my toon now after my revamping according to the comments I recieved from you guys. My tanking is now like a real tank, I have really improved my play from reading this guide. My latest achievements are 25 man storming the Citadel, and killing all ToC bosses in a 25 man run, both which I tanked in a supporting role. Last night I finaly got the Beheader to drop and all I'm missing from the list is the trinket, understanding of course I'm just getting started.
    DOes anyone know of a list of gear that is available for tanking for the DK, I have seen several list but none that really helps with progression, like what you should be looking for when, maybe it doesnt exist and you have to search every instance and find your gear. I understand now the importance in WoTN and also changing my glyphs when I'm doing single target raids, it all makes sense to me now. I re-gemmed all my gear and only kept a purple gem with epertise to get my meta bonus, everything else has pure stamina gems, my effective hp is 42,806 now in frost presence.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...cn=Michultradk
    I still have to re-spec for WoTN and will do that tonight, I also used the DPS spec that was provided by Edgewalker and I have a decent set of gear, though it's not all gemmed out yet but I will do that soon.
    Thanks everybody for taking the time to post, it really means a lot to me and it has really brought me to the next level of tanking.
    Satorri, I have made good use of my healing abilities of late, in the raids I've been doing I see now the importance of using them in dips, or in a last stand if the healer is killed, I have effectively kept myself alive long enough in several 5 mans to finish of the fight beofre dying, the benefits of knowing how to use the tools correctly is beyond imagination sometimes.

    Thanks for the help again guys, I really appreciate it.
    Mich

  5. #545
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    Is there any specific rotation for the Blood spec? I could have missed it. =P

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michultradk View Post
    Hey guys, check out my toon now after my revamping according to the comments I recieved from you guys.
    You seem to be doing perfect so far. Best of luck!

    Try swapping the Rotting thumb with The black heart, the health increase beats the dodge increase from the thumb + switching the Exp/Stamina gem in your chest to the red socket in your belt would still activate the meta requirement and give you an extra +9 stamina from the socket bonus.

  7. #547
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    I haven't been on in a while can you still 'roll' diseases with Glyph of Pestilence?

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdx View Post
    Is there any specific rotation for the Blood spec? I could have missed it. =P
    The usual starting rotation is Icy Touch + Plague strike, Double heart strike + 1 Death strike to get some death runes.

    Your cruising rotation over the length of the encounter is Renewing your diseases, Using rune strike whenever its up and heart strike if you don't need the healing from death strike.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojomofo View Post
    I haven't been on in a while can you still 'roll' diseases with Glyph of Pestilence?
    Glyph of Disease still refreshes all the disease durations when you cast Pestilence, if that is what you're asking.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojomofo View Post
    I haven't been on in a while can you still 'roll' diseases with Glyph of Pestilence?
    No. AP coefficients get reset when refreshing the diseases.

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sterbefall View Post
    No. AP coefficients get reset when refreshing the diseases.
    Wha?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #552
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    If you use an on use +AP trinket when first applying your IT and PS, your diseases will tick for more, and the question is if using Glyph of Disease keeps that temporary higher AP in account when you refresh them so they will tick for the same (higher) amount.
    And Sterbefall says it won't.

  13. #553
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    Roger, and no I would generally not expect that to work. The refresh counts as a reapplication using your current values (assumption, but a pretty safe one).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #554
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    If I remember it correctly it used to be true that one could renew high dissease AP values with GoD but isnt anymore. Havent tried it myself though

  15. #555
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    Thank you all for the wealth of information contained here. I have a lvl 80 tank of each class capable of tanking and I find the different nuances fun to explore. This guide has helped tremedously with a class that I was having some difficulties with. I have a couple of questions pertaining to folks more along my gear/content level though, as opposed to what I imagine to be the progression level that is being discussed here.

    My armory profile is here, so folks know what level I am discussing. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Annastazia

    I've recently taken a leave from Wow to take a necissary break from the game. I've come back and have been brushing off a few toons and getting back into the swing of things.

    Firstly, I've read the discussion on EHP vs Avoidance and have been very impressed with the math backed up with the "real world" advice backing those numbers. I'm wondering at say 1st wing of ICC 10 Regular, which is where I currently am, if I should drop even more avoidance in favor of more straight Stamina? Basically Im wondering if there is a "tangible" baseline if you are not T10 geared out? I've tweaked my gear and at the moment am sitting at 541 Def, just at the cap. My Avoidance is around 52%, AC is around 26000 and my unbuffed health is in the 34,000 range. I could swap out some trinkets, rings, weapons etc to enable me to re-gem for straight stamina, but what I've calculated would be an increase of 1400 base HP with a decrease in dodge of 3.5% and Parry decrease of 4.25%. Would people reccommend that I change or leave my gear alone until I garner a few more upgraded items?

    Basically, my question is, when do you completely ignore avoidance in favor of straight EHP, be it Stamina or AC? Is it a personal decision, based on your guildmates abilities or is there an actual thread to point out these facts, if you are not ICC 25 progression geared, or in that range?

    I've had no problems so far in tanking 10 man ICC, nor any of the heroics (provided I get a littel help from teh DPS of course) so I'm wondering if I stick with about 50%ish avoidance and at that point start stacking Health and AC as my new gear allows?

  16. #556
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    The 2 major focal points of tanking are stamina and armor for an ICC tank. Avoidance is something you get along the way naturally with gear upgrades, but in general it's better to avoid actively seeking it.

    There are some pretty big modifications you can make to your gear. First, drop the Runes of Swordbreaking for Runes of the Nerubian Carapace. This gives you a lot more flexibility on defense items, and lets you replace Seal of the Pantheon with an armor trinket, or a stamina trinket (I would suggest farming The Black Heart from TOC normal, it's easy, fast, and a giant upgrade).
    Run Ahune a few times and get the tanking cloak, again a SUPER fast run, you can do it several times in a row, and it's a huge upgrade.

    Work on your gems. You don't need to match socket color, in fact in general I would stick with +30 stamina except in rare situations where the stamina bonus is inordinately large (aka helm pieces). When that happens, dodge or agility and stamina purple gems are superior to parry and stamina purple gems.

  17. #557
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    Thank you, I'll look over your suggestions today while Im monkeying around. My Cloak I am currently only 6 Frost Emblems away from the tanking cloak. That'll be my Cloak upgrade. I looked at teh Black Heart, but again, we dont run TOC. I may look at trying to PUG it, our server seems to have a fair number of reasonable pug raids each weekend. I wasn't sure about teh runes, but again, I'll take a much closer look at it today. Thanks a ton, you guys have been a great help, even just reading the discussions and evolutions of the threads helps a lot.

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmogg View Post
    Thank you, I'll look over your suggestions today while Im monkeying around. My Cloak I am currently only 6 Frost Emblems away from the tanking cloak. That'll be my Cloak upgrade. I looked at teh Black Heart, but again, we dont run TOC. I may look at trying to PUG it, our server seems to have a fair number of reasonable pug raids each weekend. I wasn't sure about teh runes, but again, I'll take a much closer look at it today. Thanks a ton, you guys have been a great help, even just reading the discussions and evolutions of the threads helps a lot.
    What he means by ToC isn't the raid but the 5-man dungeon. There are 3 ToCs:

    - Trial of the Champion - This is a 5-man dungeon, very easy to do and drops the Black heart you need.

    - Trial of the Crusader - This is the raid, much better loot and 10/25 man mode.

    - Trial of the Grand Crusader - This is the same raid but the heroic version.

  19. #559
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    Ok I've switched things up a bit. Replaced a majority of my Gems, did the swap on my Runes, bought the Triumph Armor Trinket, put a 12Sta Armor Kit on my gloves etc. The Armory may take a few minutes to update, but I logged out about 5 mins ago.

    What I've come up with was this:

    Increased Health from 34681 to 36721
    Increased AC from 2593 to 27735 - thats a 1.4% increase in damage reduction
    Decreased Hit rating from 173 to 153 - thats a 1% Decrease in chance to hit
    Expertise stayed the same
    Incease in Def. Rating from 549 to 552 (Not sure how that happened exactly...do the Runes count more heavily than the 13 rating they say?)
    Increase in Dodge from 26.50% to 26.72% - thats a .22% increase
    Decrease in Parry from 24% to 20% - thats a decrease of a full 4%

    I'll try this for a week to see how it feels, but does that look like a reasonable swap out to anyone else?

  20. #560
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    I really don't want to change this thread to a Gear discussion but here is a few things you can improve:

    - Buy the PvP cloak from SW and you'll get an extra 50 stamina, and save up for the frost emblem cloak.

    - At lower gear levels, using a 2H Weapon will give you more stamina, try to farm for Tyranical Beheader or Mourning Malice and this will also free up 6 talent points since you don't need the Dual wield talents with a 2H weapon.

    - There are better enchants than the once you currently have, 30+ Stamina to shoulders, 225 armor to the cloak, 275 health to the chest and 240 armor to the gloves since you are a bit low on armor.

    - Don't worry about the tier 9 set bonus, and buy the shoulders from triumph emblems ilvl 245.

    - Your 1st emblem of frost upgrade should be the gloves, those should get you near 40k health and 30k armor.

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