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Thread: Comprehensive Guide to Death Knight Tanking

  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rude View Post
    It applies the damage reduction to the hit that procs it. It's not something you would need or want to avoid a large amount of magic damage; it's too unreliable. It's the kind of talent you would take to solo tank Sindragosa. Or for Hodir back in Ulduar when you had no frost resist gear. I think the biggest problem with it has always been how deep it is in the tree. It's a bad place to be looking at trading points.
    Ok. Did not know that. Excellent. Agree on the placement. Ouch. It's so deep in the tree that it does become a thing of, "Do I really want to sacrifice X for Y?"

    Guess it's all kinda moot now that Ghostcrawler announced the tanking tree will be blood.

    Honestly.... I think they're going to damn near have to rebuild the class.

  2. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Guess it's all kinda moot now that Ghostcrawler announced the tanking tree will be blood.

    Honestly.... I think they're going to damn near have to rebuild the class.
    yeah I am really interested to see how it turns out. I am hoping for bosses that hit like friggin trucks, and some hella hard fights that really test tank survival.

  3. #463
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    Hey guys,

    I've been tanking for quite some while now on my Death Knight from Naxxramas to Icecrown Citadel and I have a quick question regarding the frost and blood spec, both of which i use as tanking trees. With special attention to ICC, are there specific boss encounters where a Blood spec would beat a Frost spec hands down for survivability and vice-versa? I changed my DPS secondary spec into a Blood tanking spec with the fight against Sindragosa specifically in mind because i saw myself dying rather quickly in phase 3. I'm currently the "main tank" of my guild my co tank being a protection paladin, what spec would you guys suggest against the Lich King knowing that I'm probably gonna be the one tanking him? One last question: does armor represent a better stat for blood rather than frost since the former doesn't have an armor enhancing cooldown?

    Thanks for your help, here's a link to my armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...Modan&cn=Tealq

  4. #464
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    Generally speaking? I haven't seen any fights where one spec dominates the other, it's one of the perks of having fully functioning tank specs.

    Armor has the same value for both specs, Frost can benefit from the value more if they use Unbreakable Armor well, but it doesn't reduce the value, it just provides and occasional benefit *based* on your armor, and a potential cap to where the cooldown can no longer improve in value. The value of the armor remains the same however. Most people will tell you (and I would *generally* agree) that Unbreakable Armor is not as pivotal a CD as Vamp Blood in effect. If you were to look at it in terms of reduced healing requirement Vamp Blood has a slight advantage, though it doesn't reduce damage taken, whereas Unbreakable Armor will reduce damage taken but have a smaller overall effect.

    So, to answer your question indirectly and in my customary fashion:
    Frost or Blood is totally up to you. You will see the best results with the spec you play best. You will generally play a spec best when you enjoy it, and have practice with it.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Generally speaking? I haven't seen any fights where one spec dominates the other, it's one of the perks of having fully functioning tank specs.

    Armor has the same value for both specs, Frost can benefit from the value more if they use Unbreakable Armor well, but it doesn't reduce the value, it just provides and occasional benefit *based* on your armor, and a potential cap to where the cooldown can no longer improve in value. The value of the armor remains the same however. Most people will tell you (and I would *generally* agree) that Unbreakable Armor is not as pivotal a CD as Vamp Blood in effect. If you were to look at it in terms of reduced healing requirement Vamp Blood has a slight advantage, though it doesn't reduce damage taken, whereas Unbreakable Armor will reduce damage taken but have a smaller overall effect.

    So, to answer your question indirectly and in my customary fashion:
    Frost or Blood is totally up to you. You will see the best results with the spec you play best. You will generally play a spec best when you enjoy it, and have practice with it.
    Agree wholeheartedly with you on that on Sat.

    Frost felt "weird" to me. Unholy.... even though I LOVE it's AoE threat (I loved just running around with trash mobs in Northrend... setting up diseases... and just hitting pestilence.... leaving a trail of bodies behind me) just felt like I was waiting to be beat down hard.

    I gravitated to blood. It just felt "right". It made sense to me, and just flowed. AoE with it can be a challenge, but it just worked for me.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  6. #466
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    right, thanks a lot for the quick responses it helped me quite a lot. I guess i'll stick to both specs a bit longer, just love the heals i'm getting in blood spec.

  7. #467
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    for some reason ur link dont work i just get a empty talent screen

  8. #468
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    Hi all,

    I've read the article with interest and am presently gearing up my Unholy DK tank. I've gone for the scourge strike spammer variant but am stuck on which Sigil I should be picking up with emblems or looking to drop.

    With the rotation being

    Opening Rune Sets:
    1: IT > PS > BS > BS/Pest > ScS
    2: ScS > ScS > ScS

    Cruising Rune Sets (Glyph of Disease):
    A: Pest > BS > ScS > ScS
    B: ScS > ScS > ScS
    <<repeat>>


    what Sigil should i be using please?

    Also, I have glyphed for disease AND scourge strike. Should I drop the glyph of SS for something else?

    Here is my armory link if anyone feels up to taking a look please

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...myst&cn=Maardu

    I only dinged a few a days ago so go easy on the gear.

    Regards,

  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealq View Post
    Hey guys,

    I've been tanking for quite some while now on my Death Knight from Naxxramas to Icecrown Citadel and I have a quick question regarding the frost and blood spec, both of which i use as tanking trees. With special attention to ICC, are there specific boss encounters where a Blood spec would beat a Frost spec hands down for survivability and vice-versa? I changed my DPS secondary spec into a Blood tanking spec with the fight against Sindragosa specifically in mind because i saw myself dying rather quickly in phase 3. I'm currently the "main tank" of my guild my co tank being a protection paladin, what spec would you guys suggest against the Lich King knowing that I'm probably gonna be the one tanking him? One last question: does armor represent a better stat for blood rather than frost since the former doesn't have an armor enhancing cooldown?

    Thanks for your help, here's a link to my armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...Modan&cn=Tealq
    Festergut is one of the few fights I see a better performance as Frost, UBA has a large effect, and the increased IBF timer lasts almost an entire 3 stack buff.
    For main tanking BQL frost will also benefit the OT, as it will reduce your overall damage taken, whereas Blood will not.
    For a 3 tank Putricide Strategy Frost will let you be cooldowned the entire transition you are tanking him.

    Sindragosa can be more easily beaten as Blood, as VB lets you take an additional frost breath if things were to go badly, and WoTN stays procced during the last phase.
    Similarily, WoTN and a higher stamina buffer is unbeatable on LK.
    If you are tanking Keleseth, Death Strike and Vampiric Blood are great, Frost really doesn't bring anything to the table.

    Everything else is quite a bit of give and take.
    One thing I never see mentioned is the ability for frost tanks to get Chillblains with Glyph of Howling Blast.
    For deathwhisper heroic, saurfang, and LK, it's an amazing ability.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Festergut is one of the few fights I see a better performance as Frost, UBA has a large effect, and the increased IBF timer lasts almost an entire 3 stack buff.
    Ooooo good call, I hadn't thought of that. Just shy of covering the entire 3rd inhale, that would be very very nice.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by CodedSteve View Post
    what Sigil should i be using please?

    Also, I have glyphed for disease AND scourge strike. Should I drop the glyph of SS for something else?
    The emblem of Triumph Sigil is very easy to get, and is very nearly as nice as the Frost emblem sigil. I would grab that and stick with it until you're feeling very good about your gear on the t10 level. Personally I wouldn't bother getting the frost emblem sigil until down the road, but it is pretty cheap, so I can't really fault you if you want to get it earlier. There is something to be said for being able to predict the stacking and uptime later in the fight.

    For glyphs I would not use ScS *and* Disease. If you are used to using Disease I would favor that and just drop ScS for something else. If you play up your avoidance, glyph of RS could quickly become a very powerful buff to an already powerful tool. Alternately glyphing DND could support your AoE threat (I'd grab that before Glyph of Icy Touch).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Ooooo good call, I hadn't thought of that. Just shy of covering the entire 3rd inhale, that would be very very nice.
    With frost you actually get overlapping full coverage of 3rd inhale. 30 seconds... 20 second uba and 18 second ibf.

    When they are overlapped you really take minimal physical damage it's pretty lol.

  13. #473
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    since i'm main tanking on Festergut, i usually make it a habit to pop IBF at the first inhale so i can use it a second time when my OT gets to 9 stacks. just tanked him this week-end in blood spec to get a taste of what could be different, and first time we're downing him with two healers only. I noticed no tangible difference between either of my specs although on this fight i must admit that since damage output is predictable, UA really shines. I tanked him in 25-man and popped both my stamina trinkets and UA on the third inhale and i think i never dropped below 60% health.

    What's your guy's take on the armor trinket that drops off Putricide? I was thinking it would be especially useful on fights like festergut, but because of the tank switch the stacks would be lost and after the OT accumulates 9 stacks of his debuff, the stamina gain would be lost. Does the armor on that trinket outweigh the stamina on a stamina trinket?

    @Edgwalker

    Any easy alternative to your suggestion would be tanking, for example, saurfang in blood spec. With the abundance of death runes and the smooth threat generation its quite easy to cast chains of ice on the blood beasts without losing threat on the boss. I've tried this both in frost and blood spec and found it a lot easier in blood spec.
    Last edited by tealq; 04-10-2010 at 03:49 PM.

  14. #474
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    I like the trinket off PP (armor on equip, stacking stamina per hit received). I think the key thing is in valuing it that you *not* think of it as 100% armor 100% stamina uptime trinket. The stam will come and go. Ideally you will have more stacks when you need them, but it is not always the case, the buff will fall off sometimes.

    To answer your other question, if you are purely measuring the EH value of the on-equip always-on bonuses, no, the armor will not outweigh the stamina easily. If you take the whole picture into account? It is a nice, albeit non-static EH trinket as both portions contribute to your EH.


    And just because we were discussing it, I make it a point not to use CDs on the first couple inhales for Fester. The damage is healable and if your life is in danger there your healers may not be prepared to heal this fight yet (not in a terminal sense, just a learning the ropes sense, potentially). I usually tell new tanks I go into the fight with to trust the healers and save the CDs for when it really matters in third inhale. With a 1 sec swing timer and heavy heavy hits, it has a ready risk of defying your EH stacking if you don't pad the impact with CDs (it doesn't much matter if you have 50k or 60k health if you are getting hit for 30k on each swing after damage reduction). With Frost though you have some nice coverage on the durations, you could easily start UA early, and chain IBF at the end. If you're savvy with swing timers you could even stretch that out.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealq View Post

    @Edgwalker

    Any easy alternative to your suggestion would be tanking, for example, saurfang in blood spec. With the abundance of death runes and the smooth threat generation its quite easy to cast chains of ice on the blood beasts without losing threat on the boss. I've tried this both in frost and blood spec and found it a lot easier in blood spec.
    I was talking more about 25 man mode.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    One thing I never see mentioned is the ability for frost tanks to get Chillblains with Glyph of Howling Blast.
    For deathwhisper heroic, saurfang, and LK, it's an amazing ability.
    I have that in my DPS spec, although I don't have the glyph, I just pestilence the disease off into the adds when they spawn. Chillblains is a most amazing ability at Saurfang.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  17. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
    I have that in my DPS spec, although I don't have the glyph, I just pestilence the disease off into the adds when they spawn. Chillblains is a most amazing ability at Saurfang.
    Chillblains would be great. Nice! I did a recent run on Saurfang with my DK as a blood dps, and what I did.... cc with Chains of Ice. So long as I kept a nice rhythm on my attacks and didn't go overboard, I could usually cc BOTH adds. Not simultaneously..... but more of a, pop.... got that one... turn.... pop... got the other.... turn... pop, got the first one. Our ranged dps was THRILLED with it. Yes, I had to hit rune tap here and there, but it worked nicely.

    Chillblains would be great for Lady DW and Saurfang though. Great idea!
    No one tanks in a void.........

  18. #478
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    quick change of subject

    i was wondering what your take was on the 4t10. i used it in my last icc 10 run and i didn't see much of a difference or actually any real utility in having it. currently i just don't fell myself needing another cooldown and have decided to stack EH by using the off set. not only that, i don't find it really useful. i think it's too short to be used in conjunction with other cooldowns and not powerful enough to be used alone. what do you guys think?

  19. #479
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    The design is an obvious analogue to the Warrior t10 4 pc. For Warriors it is a pretty easy read though, since generally in Raids the tank won't need the extra rage enough to *have* to use it as a utility so it can be used as a survival CD with the extra rage benefit if you can get that utility. Even when you *can* use the rage you can just pop it on CD and get a rolling damage reduction every 60 sec.

    For DKs it is not so clean cut. Every spec can and does make good use of Blood Tap, but for a very functional application: to get an extra rune in what would be a blackout. So, the downside is you can't use it as a when-needed CD without sacrificing threat/utility for self-healing, debuffs, etc. On the upside you already have regular cause to pop Blood Tap as close to CD as makes sense, so you can still get that rolling damage reduction.

    For the scale of reduction it isn't a BIG deal like IBF would be at 50-60%, but it is still a distinct damage reduction. Don't underestimate it because you don't notice it as easily. It is helping. The short duration and being tied to Blood Tap, to me, just says that it is not generally a move to use the way you would use other survival on-uses, it is just a nice benefit to your survival from doing something you're doing anyway, like a random armor proc without being random (and being bigger than any of your armor procs in scale).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #480
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    right...thanks for the quick update...i guess i'll be using it on certain fights only where i feel i need the extra damage reduction. will be sticking to an EH heavy equipment though for the rest!

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