Comprehensive Guide to Death Knight Tanking

[Edgewalker]

WotN is not on all the time.
.

It's on when you would die. That's all that matters. Burst kills, WoTN alleviates burst.

[Mend]

Sterbefall,

I believe runetap is one of the main strengths of the blood spec. It can save your life if a healer is impaled or silenced, and will almost give you 50% of you health back when using it while vampiric blood is active.

Many people still forget the great Deathpact, it performs like an extra cooldown to give you 40% health in a high damage phase of a boss fight. The only downside is the ghoul's survival for the next 20 seconds that you need to sacrifice him.


Satorri,

About your statement on stacking stamina, in today's World of Warcraft a tank's worth is based on the number that shows on his health bar. You wouldn't believe how many people refuse a tank with low health but can master his class and perfect his skills.

2.) What is helpful.

And that's also what is "fun" about the game, exactly like you said.

[Edgewalker]

Why that is an essential part of the cookie cutter and not WotN is beyond me.

The cookie cutter spec is - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMV...fssxhxZ0gh:idG, that's what the majority of progression DK tanks use. Some drop Imp. Icy Touch and have a point in DRW/2 points in SoB, but generally it's that spec right there.

Manly men will use - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMV...sxZ0ghbxcz:LdG for fat tanking deeps as the buff gets higher.

[Edgewalker]

About your statement on stacking stamina, in today's World of Warcraft a tank's worth is based on the number that shows on his health bar. You wouldn't believe how many people refuse a tank with low health but can master his class and perfect his skills.

It doesn't matter how good you are for most content if your health is too low. Stamina is the BEST marker for tank survivability. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is.

[Sterbefall]

WotN is not on all the time.

Yes, it is, it just doesn't kick in above 35% health.

That is also not a fair average of extension to your health if you don't account for how much damage you actually take that the talent can affect.

What isn't? 6.2%? It's simple math that I did in another thread. It's not rocket science.

That is something I'd love to see if someone had the time/know-how with addons for data collection. How much damage is actually taken that is subject to the effects of WotN. It would be highly variable, but we're all just sort of hand-waving about what we expect to happen without supporting data.

I'm sure someone could probably glean it from logs (though it would be complicated because it's not separated from other absorbs AFAIK). It doesn't matter how much it procs. That only tells you how much it absorbed. The EH benefit is easily calculated.

[Sterbefall]

Sterbefall,

I believe runetap is one of the main strengths of the blood spec.

And yet, most cutting edge progression tanks don't take it.

It can save your life if a healer is impaled or silenced, and will almost give you 50% of you health back when using it while vampiric blood is active.

Maybe this is a ten man concern, but in 25 man, is that really a scenario that's worth 4 talent points?

Many people still forget the great Deathpact, it performs like an extra cooldown to give you 40% health in a high damage phase of a boss fight. The only downside is the ghoul's survival for the next 20 seconds that you need to sacrifice him.

And this costs no talent points.

[Sterbefall]

The cookie cutter spec is - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMV...fssxhxZ0gh:idG, that's what the majority of progression DK tanks use. Some drop Imp. Icy Touch and have a point in DRW/2 points in SoB, but generally it's that spec right there.

Manly men will use - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMV...sxZ0ghbxcz:LdG for fat tanking deeps as the buff gets higher.

No disagreement Edge. When I referred to "cookie cutter" I was referring to Satorri's base talent spec, which is clearly in conflict with the one you recommend (and I'd sooner suggest to end game DK tanks).

[Capitalism]

WotN is not on all the time. That is also not a fair average of extension to your health if you don't account for how much damage you actually take that the talent can affect.

That is something I'd love to see if someone had the time/know-how with addons for data collection. How much damage is actually taken that is subject to the effects of WotN. It would be highly variable, but we're all just sort of hand-waving about what we expect to happen without supporting data.

I don't get your logic. First you argue that spamming it is sub optimal because it nerfs your dps. Then you turn around and refuse to swap out tank talents for dps talents when its obvious that you have no use of them in the content you are tanking. If you never drop under 50% health then 5% more dmg taken will not suddenly make you die, considering most healers are running 50-60% overhealing they won't even notice if you got the talents or not.

Mitigation talents are only useful if you risk dieing. In any other scenario you should go for max dps/tps as a tank.

What if they did changed WotN to: increase stamina with 3%/6%/9%. Would you take the talent then? If you do you are delusional because that talent wouldn't even be close to as strong as WotN is currently.

[Mend]

What if they did changed WotN to: increase stamina with 3%/6%/9%. Would you take the talent then? If you do you are delusional because that talent wouldn't even be close to as strong as WotN is currently.

What satorri is trying to tell you is that WotN will not activate when you are above 35% (Read) compared to 9%+ extra stamina which is active 100% of the time and has no certain "when you are...".

If you think that WotN will help you tank the encounters you are tanking now, go ahead and pick it up or drop any other tanking talent (Anticipation, Toughness) for a better DPS and TPS talent.

[Edgewalker]

What satorri is trying to tell you is that WotN will not activate when you are above 35% (Read) compared to 9%+ extra stamina which is active 100% of the time and has no certain "when you are...".

The extra 9% stamina isn't doing you any good until you are getting below the values the 9% stamina buffed you with.
So no, 9% stamina isn't active all the time.

[Leucifer]

No disagreement Edge. When I referred to "cookie cutter" I was referring to Satorri's base talent spec, which is clearly in conflict with the one you recommend (and I'd sooner suggest to end game DK tanks).

And everyone thought I was crazy when I suggested a hybrid tank/dps build as being a potential strong point for DK's......

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ht=#post380935

Sorry, but I agree. In end game content.... a strong tank/dps build very well might be the ticket. In 10 man content, there might be some survival issues. In 25 man.... a lot of the tools used for heroics simply cease to be as useful, if at all. The few things I tanked in ICC, honestly, I don't really feel where some of the talents come in THAT handy. WotN maybe bought my healer a second. Beyond that though, I have to agree, the MOST BASIC survival tools were the most important...
Anticipation
Blade Barrier
Toughness
Between those.... a sh!tload of armor..... and a sh!tload of stamina and the right gear.... you have the very basics of everything you HAVE to have as a DK. All of the other stuff, is gravy.

And honestly, it's for the reasons mentioned above that I'm seriously pondering trying a different tank build from my current........ Draecos' Armory Talents
Note: As of right now armory shows me in my dps set. My dps set is currently mainly t9 pieces. And yes, sadly I still have some blue items (lost out on new cloak to a dps in normal HoR last night.... even though I was tanking >.< )

[Edgewalker]

You have spell deflection and Imp. Blood Presence in that spec. You know that right?

[Leucifer]

You have spell deflection and Imp. Blood Presence in that spec. You know that right?

Yup. Well aware. Like I said. I'm seriously pondering a new build from my current. Imp. Blood Prez is garbage. took it originally thinking to help a healer. 5% extra off a heal is kinda pathetic and not really gonna save my butt if things are that grim. Spell Deflection, honestly, it's pretty sweet when it's useful, but it's VERY situational. Great example is with Shadow Blast, or in places like Nexus where there are a lot of direct fire mobs. Even on HoR with the Witch Docs.... it kinda lets me laugh off their direct cast spells. In the end though, is it really worth it?

I'll be honest. My favorite things about the blood tree as a tank are:
Heart Strike..... Tab-strike goodness!
Blood Gorged..... 10% armor penetration at all times is nice
Death Rune Mastery Love this talent. Having an effective 6 blood runes to tab strike heart strike with is great.
Veteran of the Third War Expertise, strength, and stam bonus ftw!

I'm taking a good hard look at Unholy and Frost. I think Unholy has great potential. Frost, honestly, I'm reluctant to try because "everybody" frost tanks. :P
I'm open to ideas and suggestions and am willing to share what I learn.

[Sterbefall]

You should re-read the tooltip. When not in Blood Presence, Imp. Blood Presence only gives you heal on damage caused.

[Mend]

Yup. Well aware. Like I said. I'm seriously pondering a new build from my current. Imp. Blood Prez

Well improved blood presence doesn't heal you for 4% of you health, it heals for 4% of the damage you cause, tanks aren't really the highest damage dealers

This spec is pretty good, I added hysteria in to continue down the tree, but you can put that point anywhere. This spec also has spell deflection, pretty useful in heroics, not much in raids.

I'm reluctant to try because "everybody" frost tanks

Because frost is great for multi-target threat, right on par with paladins in their AoE threat. And since the buff to Icy Touch threat, its a huge threat generator when you use Icy Touch on Killing Machine procs.

[Leucifer]

You should re-read the tooltip. When not in Blood Presence, Imp. Blood Presence only gives you heal on damage caused.

D'OH! Correct. Removing head from ass now. Thank you.

Well improved blood presence doesn't heal you for 4% of you health, it heals for 4% of the damage you cause, tanks aren't really the highest damage dealers

See above. Thank you.

This spec is pretty good, I added hysteria in to continue down the tree, but you can put that point anywhere. This spec also has spell deflection, pretty useful in heroics, not much in raids.

Hysteria is a nice talent. I do like it in my dps build. Once I get all my procs rolling I'll slap a trink for +1000 ap, Hysteria, then DRW. It's a nice build and a see great value in what you show here. Personally, I'd trade off Mark of Blood for Abomination's Might.

Because frost is great for multi-target threat, right on par with paladins in their AoE threat. And since the buff to Icy Touch threat, its a huge threat generator when you use Icy Touch on Killing Machine procs.

Sounds like I'll be spending some time and some gold playing with new specs.

[Mend]

. It's a nice build and a see great value in what you show here. Personally, I'd trade off Mark of Blood for Abomination's Might.

I wouldn't consider Abominations might for 5-man heroics, but its a great buff to the raids attack power, hunters now have some competition.

Sounds like I'll be spending some time and some gold playing with new specs

Transfer your Death Knight to the PTR if its live, you have 5000g to burn through and the changes you make on the PTR don't apply to your actual character on the live servers. Its great if you would like to try and regem your gear without losing too much gold on epic gems, everything is almost free on the PTR.

[Edgewalker]

Spell Deflection is not a good talent except in very, very, very limited situations.

[Edgewalker]

I wouldn't consider Abominations might for 5-man heroics, but its a great buff to the raids attack power, hunters now have some competition.

Abomination's Might has GREATER value in 10 mans and 5 mans because you are much less likely to have another class provide the same raid buff. Your logic is quite flawed.

Because frost is great for multi-target threat, right on par with paladins in their AoE threat. And since the buff to Icy Touch threat, its a huge threat generator when you use Icy Touch on Killing Machine procs.

Frosts large threat generation doesn't have anything to do with KM procs on IT. It has to do with the large frost damage modifiers built into the talents and 10% from Razorfrost.

[Mend]

Abomination's Might has GREATER value in 10 mans and 5 mans because you are much less likely to have another class provide the same raid buff. Your logic is quite flawed.

It is great for people attempting to do the heroics in the gear level it was meant for, now almost 80% of pugs for frost emblems outgear the content and have no problem getting through quickly.

Frosts large threat generation doesn't have anything to do with KM procs on IT. It has to do with the large frost damage modifiers built into the talents and 10% from Razorfrost.

You mean Glacier Rot.

Razor frost is a weapon rune, unfortunately it replaces the effect of stoneskin gargoyle. So no more 2% stamina if you pick up razor frost.

Every tank class can slow the attack speed of enemies through a certain talent. Frost Death Knight's have an easy time applying this debuff to an unlimited number of targets by picking up Improved Icy Touch and using the Glyph of Howling Blast.

Also Deathchill + Howling blast is a great snap aggro for multiple targets, with Death and Decay and blood boil. Frost death knights have a very easy time with AoE aggro.