+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 59

Thread: Why are my Warriors melting?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Cristoff View Post
    As for Shield Blocking...yeah. Guilty as charged. I'm using it to pump up my Shield Slam as opposed to a defensive use. Will give it a whirl in a more defensive use and see how that helps out.
    This is not bad either though, you just have to be smart about it (on deathwhisper adds I use it offensively, on Gormok/Saurfang I use it defensively, etc). Establishing solid aggro on adds right as they spawn makes it easier to position them, ensures that dps can burn them down faster, and gives you free GCDs to put up debuffs, interrupt the caster, etc - that kind of stuff adds to your survivability as well.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,415
    Quote Originally Posted by Sark View Post
    This is not bad either though, you just have to be smart about it (on deathwhisper adds I use it offensively, on Gormok/Saurfang I use it defensively, etc). Establishing solid aggro on adds right as they spawn makes it easier to position them, ensures that dps can burn them down faster, and gives you free GCDs to put up debuffs, interrupt the caster, etc - that kind of stuff adds to your survivability as well.
    Our tanks don't even tank the adherents. They can typically be locked down by the melee dps pretty well, and if they do get off a few casts, they don't do enough damage for it to be a big deal. Our healers just heal through any damage they put out. This helps our DPS avoid taking cleaves to the face from the Fanatics as well, with the positioning issues WoW has had lately. This also makes it much easier for the tanks to concentrate more on just grabbing the couple of fanatics and then concentrating on survival and threat instead of having to try to position the mobs correctly to pick up the adherent without killing your melee.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Our tanks don't even tank the adherents.
    Yeah, I don't really either because the dps can lock them down pretty good, but I have been on the double fanatic side both times too. I am ready to do a taunt/HT if the aoe gets dropped on the adherent though, and if it gets empowered or reanimated I help out. For the double adherent side though it would be a little different (paly/DK are probably better suited to handle that side).

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    493
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethelas View Post
    Barring 'shit outta luck' scenario's where you take an impale + melee swing and not enough heals land in the .5 or so seconds healers have to give you some it's quite doable not to go squish. However, it takes thinking out the order in which you use your cooldowns. After I did that I very, very rarely go squish. And your tank has better gear than I have.

    However, it does require planning. Gearing for hit rating in Tier 9 content isn't exactly handy - you'd be amazed how much difference it makes to vigilance another tank or if you want to be safe, run the glyph of taunt.
    ^^ This.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnanapuddin View Post
    I know it is a jerk thing to say also, But have you considered diversifying your tank group a little more?

    But I suppose my point is that we have found rolling with a lot of the same types of tank at the same time can highly limit your options, and if that is all you have to work with then your warriors have to find a way to make it happen.
    I don't feel it's a jerk thing to say at all - I think it's entirely accurate. I've made the latter point to my guild several times, particularly regarding recruiting, but we operate on a small population (Spinebreaker US - Alliance consists of less than 20% of the pop, maybe even less given the slew of faction transfers) and everyone knows that tanking spots are relatively rare, so recruiting quality full time tanks is tough. I've had one DK tank in over a year and he's terrible, and another recruit who just hasn't shown up at all in the two weeks he's been "trialing." God bless a druid if I could get one, but our flexy druid tank is such insane DPS he's never gone back to tanking. So yeah, I have all shield tanks. And no, I don't like the lack of flexibility. Can't tell you how many times I've been like "can someone death gri-.... I don't have DK."

    As much as I like class differentiation, certain mechanics are just so good for specific situations that it's frustrating sometimes.

    Cris, when I want your opinion I will give it to you!!! You are totally not supposed to threadstalk me even when I inform you I've been polling tankspot for advice. Damn you son, damn you! :P

    As for the last poster's suggestion to vig a tank, it's actually probably a great idea for Saurfang, but our DPS may kill a bitch if I steal their vig.
    Last edited by Zothor; 12-16-2009 at 01:20 PM.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    916
    Incoming Wall-o-text...

    It always surprises me when I see threads like this because my experience is so entirely different. I am a Prot Warrior and am our guild's main tank. I have had no trouble at all in clearing 4/4 both 10m & 25m ICC and our healers generally think I am the easiest to keep alive (similar to our Druid tank). I am well aware that we have a mechanical disadvantage to Pallys and Druids but if you know all the ins & outs of the Prot Warrior class you can ninja your way as tank that puts out good aggro and is as easy to keep alive as anyone else (it just takes a lot more effort).

    Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with your Warrior's gear or spec after looking at the Warrior's armory you linked since his gear is virtually the same as mine. I am not currently glyphed for Shield Wall or Imp Disciplines. The issue is that most Warriors simply don't use all the tricks available to them as efficiently as possible with the precise timing required. In most cases little things make BIG differences. Here are some examples
    • Gormok: EASY to handle as a Prot Warrior, requires nothing more then simple cooldown timing and you virtually GUARANTEE that you will not be killed.
      • Indestructible pot & Shield Block the first rotation
      • Last Stand & Trinket & Shield Block the second rotation
      • Shield Wall & Shield Block the third rotation
      • If you time your cooldowns correctly (hitting them a half second before the 1st impale) they easily cover both impales in your rotation which makes you easy to keep up even on heroic 25m with an impale/tick/melee all at the same time
    • Twins: cake, just avoid orbs and throw up a cooldown whenever the twin that you aren't tanking gets the shield to make it easy for your healers
    • Anub'arak: Ideally you have an un-hittable block set as a Prot Warrior and thus make a perfect ad tank. When over 101.6% you are unhittable to the ads and if over 3k shield block value the amount of incoming damage is a joke if you use Shockwave & Shield Block & Trinkets efficiently
    • Marrowgar: Really not much to this as far as tanks are concerned, it is more about DPS killing spikes quickly so that people aren't impaled too long then anything else. Avoid the Cold Flame and his Whirlwind and you are done.
    • Deathwhisper Ads: This is a little more challenging but as a Prot Warrior we are great for this.
      • Heroic Throw, Warbringer charge, Thunderclap, position & Shockwave
      • Taunt anything not on you combined with spell reflect & shield bash to interrupt / silence / debuff the ads.
      • The only danger is when you get an empowered ad which you simply use a cooldown on since you really shouldn't need them for much else.
      • Space out your trinket/last stand use to make your healers lives easier.
      • Use concussion blow, imp revenge, shockwave, warbringer charge as much as possible because obviously stunned ads don't do any damage
    • Gunship: lol just don't be bad, if you are on offense make sure you tell people to leave @ 8 stacks and be off the boat by the 10th stack or you can go from full health to dead REALLY FAST
    • Saurfang: Fairly easy for tanks since it is really just Tank & Spank with some of your ranged playing games with the ads that spawn.
      • Make sure you use two tanks to make everyone's lives easier. Tank swap whenever he does Rune of Blood to greatly minimize his healing and the amount of damage your DPS will have to do.
      • Try not to fall asleep, once you take him past 30% start spacing out cooldowns to help your healers out since he hits hard and they are busy trying to keep the marked players alive as well.
    Things to keep in mind for tanking in general:
    - Flask for any progression fight
    - Indestructible pots are your friend
    - Commanding Shout, Thunderclap / Demo Shout / Sunder should have 100% uptime no excuses (unless a Pally overrides your demo shout lol)
    - Warbringer use - we are the most mobile tanks, use it for rage generation, ad pickup and stuns.
    - Shockwave use as a positional tool as well as threat generator / damage reduction. Especially in ICC when everything CONSTANTLY tries to run behind you, shockwave is huge in positioning things perfectly in front of you turned away from your DPS.
    - Aggressive cooldown use: space out your Shield Wall, Last Stand, Trinkets, Shield Block, Stuns. If a fight doesn't have a clear cut cooldown usage requirement (Gormok) then use them efficiently to help your healers out. I think this is probably the biggest issue with most Prot Warriors, they don't use their cooldowns as offensively and intelligently as they should. People complain about OP Pally's Ardent thinggy... if you recognize the incoming damage and react accordingly there is no difference between it and our Last Stand (we just don't have it fire automatically when failing and dying lol).

    As usual when it comes to gear and gemming I am a huge proponent of EH; avoidance and procs are nice but if something hits you really hard and there is nothing to be done about it I usually live and some other Prot Warriors don't

    [/wall-o-text]
    Last edited by Squirrelnut; 12-16-2009 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    Incoming Wall-o-text...

    WALL OF TEXT

    [/wall-o-text]
    Had to register just say "Amen" to this.

    This is what makes the difference between being a good tank, and just being #1 on Omen.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
    This is what makes the difference between being a good tank, and just being #1 on Omen.
    While I agree with all the points, it's also worth noting that not all Paladin tanks are facerolling noobs incapable of matching the experience and skill of Warriors.

    Our guild's Paladin tank happens to be an expert player who's been an officer for something like 4 years... so I put him on the same skill and experience level as me quite easily. All things being equal in that case, Paladins are quite superior on a number of occasions.

    We do have a diverse tanking team, though, and having 5 year guild vets in basically Warrior, Paladin, DK, and Druid tanking roles keeps us quite covered based on how Blizzard decides to balance things or the encounters.

    That said, I don't feel like it's all that unresonable to point out the simple fact: Paladins can survive more than Warriors can right now, simply due to how their class works.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,572
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post

    That said, I don't feel like it's all that unresonable to point out the simple fact: Paladins can survive more than Warriors can right now, simply due to how their class works.
    I agree and don't agree at the same time. On the one hand, yes pallies stam scales better and they do have some pretty pro cooldowns, and all things consider AD is probably a better "oh crap" scenario button than last stand, but most of the time last stand will be just as good or not better.

    This has all been said before, so I'll just again drop the manual vs. automatic comparison.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Northern Massachusetts!
    Posts
    823
    Squirrel has it right, and really, the warrior is usually the "Best" tank. That only applies when it is people like us, who really really really know our class and can really chug those indestructible pots, keep our debuffs up 100% of the time, and stagger our cooldowns so there is always a high chance of either huge health pool or huge damage reduction on anything that matter.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands
    Posts
    228
    I don't think there's a best class (in the spirit of christmas, no class shouting okay?) I find the warrior to be the jack of all trades tank. We can do just about everything, but we need to do way more to make things work - we just need to juggle speccs, glyphs, pots, gearsets you name it.
    If I look at the people I raid with, I'm the only one collecting more than one gearset. The only one that chucks armor pots. The only one that carries a ton of glyphs around and so on. In my world it just isn't the norm to work this hard for the same result.
    My lack of proper signature actually is a proud minimalistic stand

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,572
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethelas View Post
    I don't think there's a best class (in the spirit of christmas, no class shouting okay?) I find the warrior to be the jack of all trades tank. We can do just about everything, but we need to do way more to make things work - we just need to juggle speccs, glyphs, pots, gearsets you name it.
    MONKS ARE THE BEST TANK CLASS!!! ONLY CLASS THAT COMES CLOSE IS BARD!!!

    Also: The removal of the bard class in 4th ed made me very sad.


    If I look at the people I raid with, I'm the only one collecting more than one gearset. The only one that chucks armor pots. The only one that carries a ton of glyphs around and so on. In my world it just isn't the norm to work this hard for the same result.
    I'm actually limited in the number of consumables I can carry because my bags are too full because of all my different gear sets.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    all things consider AD is probably a better "oh crap" scenario button than last stand, but most of the time last stand will be just as good or not better.
    I think you're only thinking about the autosave portion of ardent defender that gives you 30% of your health back.

    The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.

    In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,572
    Quote Originally Posted by Zothor View Post
    I think you're only thinking about the autosave portion of ardent defender that gives you 30% of your health back.

    The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.

    In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.
    Ya, I was talking about the autosave, if you want to talk about damage reduction, depending on how hard a boss hits, shield block is just as good if not better, and you'll probably see that is more often than not the case in ICC. I can critical block for over 7k with shield block up, 3.5k-ish blocks normal with shield block up. That's whenever I need it, not just below 30% health, so I can prevent my healers from panicking before I even get that low. If I'm being hit for 14k (which I think is about standard at this point) then that's almost as good as shield wall every 30 seconds. I'd say that's good. It's about knowing when to use your cooldowns imo.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    718
    Quote Originally Posted by Zothor View Post
    The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.

    In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.
    AMEN to what the others have said DO IT RIGHT as they described

    So lets look at your complaint about the pally EH and I am not exactly sure on the numbers but lets leave that for now. The pally can't silence
    or stun as much as a warrior or spell reflect so in certain fights there only option is to EAT IT. We just took LOH off the pally so if he has used his shield wall cant use that anymore for 2min. So using your own argument what we have to do is take the EH off the pally give it more stuns and silences and spell reflect so it can survive the fights it will then struggle with.

    Basically this whole argument ends in 4 tanks all with exactly the same abilities called different names.

    The fact is that a pally is slightly easier to play than a warrior and to be honest that is what is contributing to a perception that pally's are more robust than warrior. Doing something wrong adds more damage difference than the small EH difference.

    I play both and depending on what the fight is I find it easier on that tank the fight encounter favours.

    If you aren't loving your warrior tank now compared to what they used to be like I don't think there is any hope.

    My only complaint is Heroic strike spam and that's only because I have developed RSI in the finger tendon (and yes it's true not a joke). So I have to limit how long I play my warrior tank.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  16. #36
    So far in 25man I haven't had any problems with oddly occurring deaths. On deathwhisper I tend to tank the 2 adherent side, with the add in the back generally being brought over to me as well. Essentially I just tank the fanatic while the DPS on my side takes out the two adherents. They die so quickly it's hardly an issue. Though this week we had 3 hunters just throwing out traps to trap 3 of the 7 adds and it made it ridiculously easy to manage.

    On gunship I go over to tank the commander. Usually gets to about 7-8 stacks before the mage is dead, so no issues there. We pretty much go all in and only leave a couple people back on our ship when a mage comes up. Half the time I don't even take damage. No real issues on deathbringer as well, though one time I got gibbed but it was my own fault for pretty much tunnel visioning and I forgot to hit shield wall after taking a big hit.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    13
    [QUOTE=Zothor;337333] He was dying earlier on Heroic Gormok, to the point where even with cooldowns I had to put him at the front of the rotation and back him up with paladins.


    I raided Trial of the Crusader (25) last night, and I literally got demolished on Gormok. My gear is fairly sound for that particular raid. I'm not armed to the teeth, I would say above average any tanks gear level. There was a paladin main-tanking, and he didn't seem to have any trouble whatsoever tanking. I would say our gear is pretty much the same in terms of stats. My defense was higher than his, but he had about 2200 more health than me.

    Here is a link to my character: The World of Warcraft Armory

    I can't remember the name of the paladin unfortunately, but what ended up happening, is a warrior DPS switched to tanking instead to replace me. His gear was a little higher than mine, but the same thing happened. He was getting crushed while the paladin didn't seem to have any troubles whatsoever. I will say that I use a slightly different protection talent build than most, there are some points I should have but I don't. Either way, it still doesn't matter because the other warrior had a raid protection spec to the tee.

    I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,023
    Not sure of a couple things there, but if you mean ToGC25, then you really aren't geared for it and you really aren't using the right kind of trinkets for that fight. 33k unbuffed health is not a good starting point for ToGC 25. It is designed for a bit stronger requirements.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliverspark View Post
    Here is a link to my character: The World of Warcraft Armory

    I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).
    First of all your spec is awful;allways max out Deflection and Anticipation, get rid of imp. spell reflect (its useless on most boss fights) and drop points from Punture also. Piercing Howl is nice for faction champions and maybe a little help with anub araks little adds in burrow phase but outside those its pretty useless in pve.
    Get maxed improved disciplines and glyph shield wall and last stand if you feel like you are running low on cd's during fights.
    Enchant / gem your gear correctly, theres no need to gem defense after you'v hit 540. Check Aggathon's recently released guide for example: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/6...ing-guide.html

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    493
    [QUOTE=Sliverspark;341321]
    Quote Originally Posted by Zothor View Post
    I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).
    Assuming as Jere is ToGC then it's worth noting you can't disarm Gormok.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts