As much as I like class differentiation, certain mechanics are just so good for specific situations that it's frustrating sometimes.
Cris, when I want your opinion I will give it to you!!! You are totally not supposed to threadstalk me even when I inform you I've been polling tankspot for advice. Damn you son, damn you! :P
As for the last poster's suggestion to vig a tank, it's actually probably a great idea for Saurfang, but our DPS may kill a bitch if I steal their vig.
Last edited by Zothor; 12-16-2009 at 12:20 PM.
It always surprises me when I see threads like this because my experience is so entirely different. I am a Prot Warrior and am our guild's main tank. I have had no trouble at all in clearing 4/4 both 10m & 25m ICC and our healers generally think I am the easiest to keep alive (similar to our Druid tank). I am well aware that we have a mechanical disadvantage to Pallys and Druids but if you know all the ins & outs of the Prot Warrior class you can ninja your way as tank that puts out good aggro and is as easy to keep alive as anyone else (it just takes a lot more effort).
Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with your Warrior's gear or spec after looking at the Warrior's armory you linked since his gear is virtually the same as mine. I am not currently glyphed for Shield Wall or Imp Disciplines. The issue is that most Warriors simply don't use all the tricks available to them as efficiently as possible with the precise timing required. In most cases little things make BIG differences. Here are some examples
Things to keep in mind for tanking in general:
- Gormok: EASY to handle as a Prot Warrior, requires nothing more then simple cooldown timing and you virtually GUARANTEE that you will not be killed.
- Indestructible pot & Shield Block the first rotation
- Last Stand & Trinket & Shield Block the second rotation
- Shield Wall & Shield Block the third rotation
- If you time your cooldowns correctly (hitting them a half second before the 1st impale) they easily cover both impales in your rotation which makes you easy to keep up even on heroic 25m with an impale/tick/melee all at the same time
- Twins: cake, just avoid orbs and throw up a cooldown whenever the twin that you aren't tanking gets the shield to make it easy for your healers
- Anub'arak: Ideally you have an un-hittable block set as a Prot Warrior and thus make a perfect ad tank. When over 101.6% you are unhittable to the ads and if over 3k shield block value the amount of incoming damage is a joke if you use Shockwave & Shield Block & Trinkets efficiently
- Marrowgar: Really not much to this as far as tanks are concerned, it is more about DPS killing spikes quickly so that people aren't impaled too long then anything else. Avoid the Cold Flame and his Whirlwind and you are done.
- Deathwhisper Ads: This is a little more challenging but as a Prot Warrior we are great for this.
- Heroic Throw, Warbringer charge, Thunderclap, position & Shockwave
- Taunt anything not on you combined with spell reflect & shield bash to interrupt / silence / debuff the ads.
- The only danger is when you get an empowered ad which you simply use a cooldown on since you really shouldn't need them for much else.
- Space out your trinket/last stand use to make your healers lives easier.
- Use concussion blow, imp revenge, shockwave, warbringer charge as much as possible because obviously stunned ads don't do any damage
- Gunship: lol just don't be bad, if you are on offense make sure you tell people to leave @ 8 stacks and be off the boat by the 10th stack or you can go from full health to dead REALLY FAST
- Saurfang: Fairly easy for tanks since it is really just Tank & Spank with some of your ranged playing games with the ads that spawn.
- Make sure you use two tanks to make everyone's lives easier. Tank swap whenever he does Rune of Blood to greatly minimize his healing and the amount of damage your DPS will have to do.
- Try not to fall asleep, once you take him past 30% start spacing out cooldowns to help your healers out since he hits hard and they are busy trying to keep the marked players alive as well.
- Flask for any progression fight
- Indestructible pots are your friend
- Commanding Shout, Thunderclap / Demo Shout / Sunder should have 100% uptime no excuses (unless a Pally overrides your demo shout lol)
- Warbringer use - we are the most mobile tanks, use it for rage generation, ad pickup and stuns.
- Shockwave use as a positional tool as well as threat generator / damage reduction. Especially in ICC when everything CONSTANTLY tries to run behind you, shockwave is huge in positioning things perfectly in front of you turned away from your DPS.
- Aggressive cooldown use: space out your Shield Wall, Last Stand, Trinkets, Shield Block, Stuns. If a fight doesn't have a clear cut cooldown usage requirement (Gormok) then use them efficiently to help your healers out. I think this is probably the biggest issue with most Prot Warriors, they don't use their cooldowns as offensively and intelligently as they should. People complain about OP Pally's Ardent thinggy... if you recognize the incoming damage and react accordingly there is no difference between it and our Last Stand (we just don't have it fire automatically when failing and dying lol).
As usual when it comes to gear and gemming I am a huge proponent of EH; avoidance and procs are nice but if something hits you really hard and there is nothing to be done about it I usually live and some other Prot Warriors don't
Last edited by Squirrelnut; 12-16-2009 at 01:55 PM.
Our guild's Paladin tank happens to be an expert player who's been an officer for something like 4 years... so I put him on the same skill and experience level as me quite easily. All things being equal in that case, Paladins are quite superior on a number of occasions.
We do have a diverse tanking team, though, and having 5 year guild vets in basically Warrior, Paladin, DK, and Druid tanking roles keeps us quite covered based on how Blizzard decides to balance things or the encounters.
That said, I don't feel like it's all that unresonable to point out the simple fact: Paladins can survive more than Warriors can right now, simply due to how their class works.
Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!
This has all been said before, so I'll just again drop the manual vs. automatic comparison.
Squirrel has it right, and really, the warrior is usually the "Best" tank. That only applies when it is people like us, who really really really know our class and can really chug those indestructible pots, keep our debuffs up 100% of the time, and stagger our cooldowns so there is always a high chance of either huge health pool or huge damage reduction on anything that matter.
I don't think there's a best class (in the spirit of christmas, no class shouting okay?) I find the warrior to be the jack of all trades tank. We can do just about everything, but we need to do way more to make things work - we just need to juggle speccs, glyphs, pots, gearsets you name it.
If I look at the people I raid with, I'm the only one collecting more than one gearset. The only one that chucks armor pots. The only one that carries a ton of glyphs around and so on. In my world it just isn't the norm to work this hard for the same result.
My lack of proper signature actually is a proud minimalistic stand
Also: The removal of the bard class in 4th ed made me very sad.
I'm actually limited in the number of consumables I can carry because my bags are too full because of all my different gear sets.If I look at the people I raid with, I'm the only one collecting more than one gearset. The only one that chucks armor pots. The only one that carries a ton of glyphs around and so on. In my world it just isn't the norm to work this hard for the same result.
The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.
In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.
So lets look at your complaint about the pally EH and I am not exactly sure on the numbers but lets leave that for now. The pally can't silence
or stun as much as a warrior or spell reflect so in certain fights there only option is to EAT IT. We just took LOH off the pally so if he has used his shield wall cant use that anymore for 2min. So using your own argument what we have to do is take the EH off the pally give it more stuns and silences and spell reflect so it can survive the fights it will then struggle with.
Basically this whole argument ends in 4 tanks all with exactly the same abilities called different names.
The fact is that a pally is slightly easier to play than a warrior and to be honest that is what is contributing to a perception that pally's are more robust than warrior. Doing something wrong adds more damage difference than the small EH difference.
I play both and depending on what the fight is I find it easier on that tank the fight encounter favours.
If you aren't loving your warrior tank now compared to what they used to be like I don't think there is any hope.
My only complaint is Heroic strike spam and that's only because I have developed RSI in the finger tendon (and yes it's true not a joke). So I have to limit how long I play my warrior tank.
** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.
So far in 25man I haven't had any problems with oddly occurring deaths. On deathwhisper I tend to tank the 2 adherent side, with the add in the back generally being brought over to me as well. Essentially I just tank the fanatic while the DPS on my side takes out the two adherents. They die so quickly it's hardly an issue. Though this week we had 3 hunters just throwing out traps to trap 3 of the 7 adds and it made it ridiculously easy to manage.
On gunship I go over to tank the commander. Usually gets to about 7-8 stacks before the mage is dead, so no issues there. We pretty much go all in and only leave a couple people back on our ship when a mage comes up. Half the time I don't even take damage. No real issues on deathbringer as well, though one time I got gibbed but it was my own fault for pretty much tunnel visioning and I forgot to hit shield wall after taking a big hit.
[QUOTE=Zothor;337333] He was dying earlier on Heroic Gormok, to the point where even with cooldowns I had to put him at the front of the rotation and back him up with paladins.
I raided Trial of the Crusader (25) last night, and I literally got demolished on Gormok. My gear is fairly sound for that particular raid. I'm not armed to the teeth, I would say above average any tanks gear level. There was a paladin main-tanking, and he didn't seem to have any trouble whatsoever tanking. I would say our gear is pretty much the same in terms of stats. My defense was higher than his, but he had about 2200 more health than me.
Here is a link to my character: The World of Warcraft Armory
I can't remember the name of the paladin unfortunately, but what ended up happening, is a warrior DPS switched to tanking instead to replace me. His gear was a little higher than mine, but the same thing happened. He was getting crushed while the paladin didn't seem to have any troubles whatsoever. I will say that I use a slightly different protection talent build than most, there are some points I should have but I don't. Either way, it still doesn't matter because the other warrior had a raid protection spec to the tee.
I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).
Not sure of a couple things there, but if you mean ToGC25, then you really aren't geared for it and you really aren't using the right kind of trinkets for that fight. 33k unbuffed health is not a good starting point for ToGC 25. It is designed for a bit stronger requirements.
Get maxed improved disciplines and glyph shield wall and last stand if you feel like you are running low on cd's during fights.
Enchant / gem your gear correctly, theres no need to gem defense after you'v hit 540. Check Aggathon's recently released guide for example: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/6...ing-guide.html