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Thread: Why are my Warriors melting?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zothor View Post
    In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.
    Sometimes it is luck or the rng. For the most part things should be equal. The only thing I've seen where the pally has the edge over a warrior is situations where AD saves their ass since it is automatic and I die b/c I didn't hit a cd fast enough or situations where I've got all my cds down and he can still AD things.
    Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Not sure of a couple things there, but if you mean ToGC25, then you really aren't geared for it and you really aren't using the right kind of trinkets for that fight. 33k unbuffed health is not a good starting point for ToGC 25. It is designed for a bit stronger requirements.
    ^ THIS ^

    You shouldn't be in there with those stats and I really don't care if your a pally or warrior it's too dangerous.

    It would have been interesting to see a link to the pally you are comparing yourself too.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  3. #43
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    Sorry... saying it's too dangerous made me think of this, and I just had to post it. I'm working on my 5th night in a row working a 13+ hour shift, I'm actually probably going to try and stretch this one out to a 15 hour shift so that I only have to work 12 hours on Wednesday. So... my posting may be a little loopy for the next few hours. Thank god I get the next 2 days off.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #44
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    Actually... this would be more accurate:

    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  5. #45
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    Only it should be an iraqi version of the tank .. say a VW with armor re-enforcement and then flattened by a large rock.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by protonly View Post
    Sometimes it is luck or the rng. For the most part things should be equal. The only thing I've seen where the pally has the edge over a warrior is situations where AD saves their ass since it is automatic and I die b/c I didn't hit a cd fast enough or situations where I've got all my cds down and he can still AD things.
    I don't know why this thread is still being posted on but since it is I thought I would respond to this.... NO!

    Gormok is nothing more then a precise timed encounter, AD versus reaction time should have NOTHING to do with it. It doesn't matter if a Pally or Warrior is tanking because DBM makes it incredibly easy by giving you information on exactly how many seconds before each impale so that you can use your cooldowns accordingly.

    All you have to do is pay attention to the fight timing mechanics and use your cooldowns precisely. RNG refers to the random chance that you might get impaled/melee hit/tick all at the same time, however if you timed your cooldowns correctly it won't matter because you should still survive even if you have the bad RNG to be hit by all 3 at once.

    For example: looking at a 3 tank rotation you generally get around 15 impale hits so...
    • Tank #1 - Impale 1 & 2, fairly week just use shield block
    • Tank #2 - Impale 3 & 4, same as above
    • Tank #3 - Impale 5 & 6, same as above but perhaps throw an armor pot and or trinket to help out
    • Tank #1 - Impale 7 & 8, Last Stand & Enraged Regen & Shield Block & Trinket
    • Tank #2 - Impale 9 & 10, same as above
    • Tank #3 - Impale 11 & 12, same as above
    • Tank #1 - Impale 13 & 14, Shield Wall & Shield Block
    • Tank #2 - Impale 15 & 16 if required, same as above
    Basically if you spread out your cooldowns as mentioned above you have something up for every single tanking rotation of two impales. You should press your cooldown such as Shield Wall about half a second before the first impale hits you so that it covers the second impale as well (this is what a lot of tanks fail at = Shield Wall runs out just before the 2nd impale so no cooldown up on the 2nd and most powerful impale = 1 shot).

    Following this approach his hardest hitting attacks will only be doing 40-60% of their damage to you depending on whether you glyphed for Shield Wall. Either way, combine that with Shield Block and you shouldn't have much problem living through the worst possible RNG.

    Unless you badly under-gear the instance, any tank class should have no problem surviving through Gormok on 25m Heroic ToC if cooldowns are correctly used.

    EDIT: If you are the worst geared you could be the 3rd tank in the rotation so you only tank him for 2 sets of impales and would use Last Stand/Enraged Regen for the first and Shield Wall for the second without having to worry about taking him a 3rd time when stacks of the rising anger buff makes him hit really hard.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    RNG refers to the random chance that you might get impaled/melee hit/tick all at the same time, however if you timed your cooldowns correctly it won't matter because you should still survive even if you have the bad RNG to be hit by all 3 at once.
    The only problem with that statement is that since it is RNG you can't know it will happen and if you don't know when it will happen then why would you hit a cd? I believe I do get your point and your right in theory.

    In practice however its usually something like a healer having to move/stop healing where the real RNG hits the fan. That's where an auto-cd like AD that doesn't involve reaction time is worth more than last stand + shield wall -- to me AD seems way more "healer friendly." I'm not sure why but on gunship 10 man I get absolutely tore up when I board the horde ship and I'm pretty sure it ain't my gear - simply put if I don't pop a cd every time I jump over then I will die unless I am 100% topped off b/c Sarufang hits so fast and hard and I can't go that one second w/o heal spam. Throw our pally over whom I outgear and let his AD give him an extra two seconds to jump over. Other bosses are the same - a healer gets impaled/spiked/dc/whatever and stops healing and something like AD can automatically provide that extra second or two to live because generally the tank won't know when the healer stops healing (unless they call it out, I wish they would). "Uhh...guys, I went 2.4 seconds without a heal, can you explain that?"

    To Zolthor, the OP: This might sound stupid, and it is, but make sure your healers aren't disconnecting a crap ton in ICC. I learned last night that some of our healers will just disconnect when the bone spike or whatever from the first boss in ICC hits them or near them and one tank healer getting d/c is enough to make any tank seem like they are melting.
    Last edited by protonly; 12-22-2009 at 06:04 AM.
    Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.

  8. #48
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    You can't know exactly when it will happen, but you do know what window of time it will happen in (at least for the Gormok example). Since tank cooldowns typically have a duration, this makes it a bit easier to hit.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by protonly View Post
    The only problem with that statement is that since it is RNG you can't know it will happen and if you don't know when it will happen then why would you hit a cd? I believe I do get your point and your right in theory.

    In practice however its usually something like a healer having to move/stop healing where the real RNG hits the fan. That's where an auto-cd like AD that doesn't involve reaction time is worth more than last stand + shield wall -- to me AD seems way more "healer friendly." I'm not sure why but on gunship 10 man I get absolutely tore up when I board the horde ship and I'm pretty sure it ain't my gear - simply put if I don't pop a cd every time I jump over then I will die unless I am 100% topped off b/c Sarufang hits so fast and hard and I can't go that one second w/o heal spam. Throw our pally over whom I outgear and let his AD give him an extra two seconds to jump over. Other bosses are the same - a healer gets impaled/spiked/dc/whatever and stops healing and something like AD can automatically provide that extra second or two to live because generally the tank won't know when the healer stops healing (unless they call it out, I wish they would). "Uhh...guys, I went 2.4 seconds without a heal, can you explain that?"

    To Zolthor, the OP: This might sound stupid, and it is, but make sure your healers aren't disconnecting a crap ton in ICC. I learned last night that some of our healers will just disconnect when the bone spike or whatever from the first boss in ICC hits them or near them and one tank healer getting d/c is enough to make any tank seem like they are melting.
    You were probably getting torn up on the Horde ship because you were tanking Saurfang. SAURFANG.

  10. #50
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    One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by protonly View Post
    The only problem with that statement is that since it is RNG you can't know it will happen and if you don't know when it will happen then why would you hit a cd?
    You know when impales hit, DBM blatantly tells you. There is no mystery about it and since you have cooldowns planned for every pair of impales you know EXACTLY when to hit a cd (.5 seconds before the first one hits). Whether RNG decides that a melee/tick hit at the same time as that impale it really doesn't matter because you have a cooldown up anyway based on the timing mechanics of the fight.

    I think many people think AD is so great because it allows you to not know fights / not pay attention and get away with it. Warriors have to be prepared and keep track of fight mechanics and debuffs for Last Stand to have similar effectiveness or they will "melt" when played with a lack of attentiveness like most Paladin tanks get away with (Obviously there are good Paladins too). That doesn't particularly bother me since in general Warriors require more skill and effort to play well and it gives good ones a challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by protonly View Post
    -- to me AD seems way more "healer friendly." I'm not sure why but on gunship 10 man I get absolutely tore up when I board the horde ship and I'm pretty sure it ain't my gear - simply put if I don't pop a cd every time I jump over then I will die unless I am 100% topped off b/c Sarufang hits so fast and hard and I can't go that one second w/o heal spam.
    1. AD is not 'healer friendly' it is 'bad tank' friendly. Healers don't care what mechanic keeps you alive as long as you aren't dead. Good Prot Warriors know fight mechanics and watch for incoming damage versus remaining health so that they can proactively use cooldowns so it makes no difference. Bad tanks die and blame their healers while pretending they don't see the unused cooldowns sitting on their bar and wish they had AD to do it for them.
    2. Gunship is all about the stacks, be off before they ever get to 10. You won't be over there that much so using a cooldown for each time isn't that much of an issue, also you don't have to constantly tank him since no one is attacking, just get some initial threat.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/
    I am the Boarding Party tank and this is exactly how I "tank" him on 10/25. Its more of a kite really. I jump over heroic throw him in the face, shield slam, thunder clap and start Jet packing around as fast as I can.

    I believe they changed it recently so he now throws axes at you so he will still gain stacks even if your not in melee range. However reducing the direct melee attacks he dishes out by kiting still seems like a better plan than eating him while your crew destroys the battle mage.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/
    The first and last time I tried this I jetpacked around a couple times before clipping through the ship and dying.

    Laughed so hard.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    I am the Boarding Party tank and this is exactly how I "tank" him on 10/25. Its more of a kite really. I jump over heroic throw him in the face, shield slam, thunder clap and start Jet packing around as fast as I can.

    I believe they changed it recently so he now throws axes at you so he will still gain stacks even if your not in melee range. However reducing the direct melee attacks he dishes out by kiting still seems like a better plan than eating him while your crew destroys the battle mage.
    His throw applies a rather nasty DoT now, so I actually think you take less damage in melee range, honestly.

    He decided to not run at me yesterday and just toss Axes at me instead (I was just standing on the ship in a normal place though) and after a handful of Axes his 'Rending Throw' dot effect was ticking for 28k, and continued to tick multiple times after reboarding our ship. :P
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 12-24-2009 at 04:04 AM.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    His throw applies a rather nasty DoT now, so I actually think you take less damage in melee range, honestly.
    I've been debating this in my head too.

  16. #56
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    No pun intended, warrior is all about timing cd's especially at gormok, and especially when it had just been realesed, it got nerfed like the second day or third day... yet we managed to kill with 2 warriors and 1 paladin before it. Where on our first tries me and the other warrior were hitting the dust faster than we could say oshit the paladin was sitting comofrtably under an AD debuff

    Time cds, especially as he starts tossing them kobolds, usually the second time round when you get to tank.

    Paladin is pretty much easier to play with - threat wise and survivability wise because of retarded mechanics, if you cant stand the heat stay out of the kitchen and reroll paladin ;p

  17. #57
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    Ok Ive done some reading and Ive looked at the specs.

    Firstly if he is using one spec for trash and one spec for boss. Tell him to drop the trash spec for progression fights. I hope it is actually one spec for heroics and one spec for raids.

    A few things that probably need to be reinforced.
    VS trash dont under estimate the power of improved revenge 50% change for a mob to do no damage for 3 seconds is actually quite powerful. Particularly when combined with shockwave usage. The extra 20% damage on the ability is nothing to be sneezed at as far as threat goes either, not to mention the extra with heroic strike.

    Improve spell reflect is doing little for you in a raid setting. If a spell needs to (and can be avoided) it should be kicked/shield bashed. I could be wrong but spell reflect will not help you against any (if I am wrong then most) spell that you cant kick/shield bash. It doesnt work on AoE spells. Also it only covers the 4 closest people so may not even cover the target of random spells only a 1/5 of the raid is covered by it.

    Something else the warrior should watch for is effects that might be afflicting him just before he goes down. Stuns for example make for dead tanks due to no blocks or parries. Position may also be something of important if he is getting cleaved by an add someone else is tanking.

  18. #58
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    I know that at the begining of this thread it was said that this is not a healing problem but I beg to differ. I am not a tank, I am a disc priest healer. The trouble is that tanks that are scooping up adds or taking the cleave hit are often forgotten as far as preperation goes for the healers. When we moved into TOGC, our warrior tanks started taking alot of dmg, especially on Gorok, where pallies just plugged along as usual. I transfered myself over to the warrior tank, just to see if it was a gear issue or a heal issue. I started stacking grace/shield/renew on the warrior before the impales and everything went just fine. I am now doing the same to our warrior who is scooping up adds in ICC and he can tank them just fine. He did have to place points back into shielding and I placed points back into improved renew to take some of the spikes off his dmg. I'm not saying that this is a fix, however I believe that tanks and healers are in this together. If one of us is off our game then we both die. Working diffrent healers or diffrent rotations and alittle preperation such as buff bars and watching the boss/inc specials instead of just watching the grid bars help alot. If you know whats coming as a tank you can use CDs to help the healer, but if your healer doesn't know whats coming then his CDs are sitting there as his tank is dying. Also, I've noticed in ICC that overhealing be damned. We have massive mana pools now and I would rather overheal then let my tank die.

    Just a thought.
    Last edited by Banterloft; 01-04-2010 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Damn Spell-Check

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/
    It's not funny unless there is hawt rocketpack bear ass involved.

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