+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 59

Thread: Why are my Warriors melting?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    136

    Why are my Warriors melting?

    So I'm our guild's tank officer, with almost all of my tanking experience on my paladin save about 40 levels of a warrior alt. As much as I try and keep up on the details, I'm not seeing it through the eyes of my warriors. And the general consensus of my healers, in both ToGC and ICC10/25, is that my warriors are melting.

    My guild carries 2 prot paladins and 2 prot warriors at the moment. Nearly every healers is on board that the paladins are, not marginally, but SIGNIFICANTLY easier to keep alive. Obviously there are certain serious class balance mechanics at work here - Ardent defender alone covers up a lot of mistakes for healers where they may not even realize that technically, they let me die. There's not much warriors can do about that. But what CAN I have my guys do?

    The problem is apparently exacerbated in Icecrown. My suspicion, admittedly without combat logs and math, is that chill of the throne is exacerbating parryhasting. Neither of my warriors is hard expertise capped, or really anywhere close to it (I was surprised to discover this, but my best geared one has chased all the hit gear in ToC so hits taunts don't miss), and consequently are getting parried pretty often. That warrior died to a 2shot on Deathwhisper adds where he took a 28k special attack and a 20k white attack legitimately .16 seconds apart according to the combat log. I'm not sure how hits of that size can be coming in that fast if he's not being significantly parryhasted.

    I have searched for days for someone to answer why my warriors are getting jacked, and what I can have them do. Every post I see where someone says "I'm dying, the similarly geared paladin isn't," has been answered with "it's your healers, not you," and/or "you're undergeared for Icecrown."

    Well. Not EVERYONE's healers suck, and not everyone is undergeared for icecrown. At some point, a pattern suggests an underlying trend. This isn't designed to be a post about "qq paladins are OP" - I know I'm OP at the moment. But I can't change that. And I need some way to keep my warriors from getting killed, because if they don't I have to bench them and they're not bad tanks or bad people.

    Help.

    For reference, my warrior:

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    And myself, in almost identical overall gear quality:

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    There are clearly a bunch of warriors feeling this problem... any experiences you can add to help us figure out wtf is happening to warriors in icecrown (I HIGHLY suspect there is something with Chill of the throne where the 20% more hits taken is scaling badly for classes that get more heavily parryhasted, but I don't have numbers to support this theory) is greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Northern Massachusetts!
    Posts
    823
    He needs to spec Imp disciplines, and glyph Last stand and Shield wall. Then he can blow shield wall once every two minutes and same with Last stand. This will make him much easier to heal.

    Apparently I'm the easiest to heal tank in my guild, and we run with 2 warriors, a paladin and a druid full time.

    Sooo, something's wrong.

    Also if you look at the parryhaste chance it's something like 1.7% of all overall swings that are actually effected with the full 40% swing timer reduction. Satrina broke down the numbers. Even dual-weilding DKs don't get much parry-haste. Not enough to warrant anyone losing their mind like I see so many people do.

    Shouldn't be very surprising that he's taking more damage, he's got a lot of threat stuff in the gear/build.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    558
    With the spec and glyphs he's running he has very long timers on CDs, which when used intelligently can make a tank seem much easier to heal. A paladin's AD does not require the user to be proactive, whereas a properly timed shield block or last stand will make damage intake smoother. I'd also drop some points into shield spec as it will help far more with sustained rage generation (and some damage mitigation) than the two points in improved BB.

    As far as the deathwhisper adds, there is one type of add that moves slow, hits like a truck, and is not supposed to be tanked but kited and dpsed down.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    With the spec and glyphs he's running he has very long timers on CDs, which when used intelligently can make a tank seem much easier to heal. A paladin's AD does not require the user to be proactive, whereas a properly timed shield block or last stand will make damage intake smoother. I'd also drop some points into shield spec as it will help far more with sustained rage generation (and some damage mitigation) than the two points in improved BB.

    As far as the deathwhisper adds, there is one type of add that moves slow, hits like a truck, and is not supposed to be tanked but kited and dpsed down.
    Sure, except I can tank those adds, and usually without ardent defender firing off. And I'm specced and gearing almost entirely for threat myself. When you say "a lot of threat" stuff in the gear/build, where are you seeing alternatives besides cooldown reductions? I'm not that familiar with warriors which is why I'm here, but I don't see "a lot" that would help him by speccing out of threat.

    I don't think this is about cooldowns. He's dying sooner on trash than I am too. He was dying earlier on Heroic Gormok, to the point where even with cooldowns I had to put him at the front of the rotation and back him up with paladins.

    It just feels like there's just more damage coming in faster.

    As for Satrina's math, I haven't seen it and I'd be curious if you can link me, but given Theck's work on the avoidance value of Expertise due to parryhasting over at Maintankadin, I've been wary about the ole "oh it can't be parryhasting..." type attitude.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands
    Posts
    228
    Barring 'shit outta luck' scenario's where you take an impale + melee swing and not enough heals land in the .5 or so seconds healers have to give you some it's quite doable not to go squish. However, it takes thinking out the order in which you use your cooldowns. After I did that I very, very rarely go squish. And your tank has better gear than I have.

    However, it does require planning. Gearing for hit rating in Tier 9 content isn't exactly handy - you'd be amazed how much difference it makes to vigilance another tank or if you want to be safe, run the glyph of taunt.
    My lack of proper signature actually is a proud minimalistic stand

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,251
    The reason they die is because unlike Paladins, they have a medium chance to be swung at for the full amount of damage, where Paladins usually are unhittable or atleast close to it. That's an extra 2k+ damage from the melee your Warriors take, possibly killing them. If they aren't using Shield Block for Impales tell them to start doing it
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Istanbul
    Posts
    612
    Proactive planning & acting is required by the warrior to keep up with paladin surviability. Here are two tips that i found makes all the difference between being squishy:

    1) Timing the shieldblock. For example on heroic Gormok, putting the block up just before the SECOND impale instead of the first makes all the difference. Similar stuff with the empowered adds on deathwhisper... normally they should be kited but if you have your block & demo shout up, you can survive pretty decently if your dps is fast.

    2) Demo shout/Vindication. This is one of my pet peeves. Vindication overwrites demo shout. If you're both hitting the same mob, your vindication will overwrite his demo. Then if you turn away to hit something for 10 secs, your vindication falls off & he doesnt realize it and he gets pwnd. We wiped quite a few times on heroic Gormok till we realized what was happening. My way around it? I use Satrina's Buff Frames, with a new frame showing a filtered list of debuffs that are of interest to me. I watch the vindication timer, if it falls off, i pop my demo shout.

    Basically, warrior damage intake is spikier, not "higher". If your healers do not adjust for that too, you're going to only go 1/2 the way towards unsquishy tanks. Intelligent heals like Prayer of Mending can cover the difference really easy too so it's not "extra" burden on the healers.

  8. #8
    I wanted to respond to this part of your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zothor View Post
    The problem is apparently exacerbated in Icecrown. My suspicion, admittedly without combat logs and math, is that chill of the throne is exacerbating parryhasting. Neither of my warriors is hard expertise capped, or really anywhere close to it (I was surprised to discover this, but my best geared one has chased all the hit gear in ToC so hits taunts don't miss), and consequently are getting parried pretty often. That warrior died to a 2shot on Deathwhisper adds where he took a 28k special attack and a 20k white attack legitimately .16 seconds apart according to the combat log. I'm not sure how hits of that size can be coming in that fast if he's not being significantly parryhasted.
    The problem is not that Chill of the Throne is making your Warriors more vulnerable to parry hastes. There are two problems with the example you give here:

    #1: Special attacks have nothing to do with parry haste -- they're on separate timers. Parry haste only applies to a boss's regular melee swings.

    #2: Bosses in Icecrown are specifically designed to be incapable of parry gibbing a tank. This isn't done by disabling parry haste on the mobs, but by causing their damage abilities to be so small that one coming right after the other won't gib them. Even if your 28k and 20k hits were the product of parry hasting, 48k HP fully buffed seems pretty low -- our Warriors were breaking 50k when ToC was just being released. It doesn't look like your Warrior's gear is the problem; were you just missing an important raid buff? Warriors provide Commanding Shout themselves, and Mark, Kings, and Fort can all be applied through drums.
    Follow me on Twitter | Facebook | Google+

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    1,548
    Honestly it probably is just coming down to use of cooldowns, since I'm assuming that he's keeping demo shout and tclap up (or someone is). He's got 5 fairly powerful cooldowns at his disposal. Last Stand, Enraged Regeneration, Shield Wall, Glyph of Indomitably (7% dodge), Shield Block all will go towards making him easier to heal when used properly. Don't save all of them for when things get bad, because saving them might just have been what made things get bad in the first place. Also, make sure your Warriors are using the 3500 armor pots. One just before pull so it resets the timer during combat, and one after the first wears off. This will give you 4 minutes of 3500 more armor which is a handy amount of damage reduction.

    Proactive cooldown usage and a keen eye on things like this have earned me a reputation for being easier to heal than the better geared tanks.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    18
    I'm a warrior tank. Regarding the deathwhipser adds, I have similar encounter. I was tanking the adds on the left side of the room, 2 x fanatics and 1 x adherent. I noticed I am getting quite a huge spikes while tanking both the fanatics. Later I realised that the 2 mobs tends to move around randomly with any slight tank movement. Most of the case one of the fanatics will move behind me, and thats when I received the "spike" damage.

    With this "discovery", I will make sure I shockwave both fanatics when they are close to me, then position myself infront of the mobs, then hit shield block. No more "spike" damage from then on.

    One more thing, when the fanatics became enpowered, they hit v v v hard. Make sure you are quick to kite them.

    Lastly, I do aggree that warrior tanks tends to take more spikey damage. And spike damage is the common causes of tanks death. Very good example is Hardmode Northrend beast. I feel so helpless when this happens.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    There are ways to survive tanking everything as a Warrior, but I wouldn't say your healers are wrong either.

    Paladins just take less damage. That's how it is right now. A lot of people can theorize on how your Warriors can improve when they tank (there are lots of ways to get pretty much a 100% survival rate on Northrend Beast, for example)--which is a very good thing to do--however the simple fact is that if your Paladin and Warrior tanks are equally geared and skilled, the Paladin will most likely have a better chance of surviving the encounter.

    Paladins will typically have more health and the mechanics of Ardent Defender are very powerful for the purposes of survival.

    Also, I have to disagree with Lore a bit on the parry haste issue. If ICC bosses are parry hastable, then Warriors will typically gain a substantial reduction in survival due to that fact, especially as much of the ICC gear is itemized towards Hit instead of Expertise. Even with lower base hits than TotC, Parry-hasting will contribute to a non-trivial increase in damage for Warrior tanks not at the Expertise cap due to their frequency of parryable attacks per boss swing. This further exacerbates the issue.

    (Even with 41 Expertise, there is a ~4% chance to be Parried from the front. So even with that much Expertise and the lowered hit sizes, a Warrior tank will take roughly 3-5% increased damage over time, plus the chance of significant burst damage. I have not seen conclusive testing as to which bosses parry haste in ICC, but I've seen suggestions that the cause of, for instance, exceptionally fast Marrowgar Saber Lash spam is due to parry haste. It could also be pretty negative on a fight like Saurfang with mechanics tied to swing speeds.)
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    10
    Plain and simple, your warriors geared for threat and probably using cooldowns once it is too late rather then before incoming damage, shieldblock can be almost as effective as ardent defender if not always used at 100% hp. As far as tanking the deformed adds on Lady Deathwhisper, well you shouldn't be doing it that way anyway, and to say you can and he cant is really untrue, there isn't really anything a pally can do that a warrior cant other then die once every 2 min without actually dying.

    Some rules of thumb that I usually go by:

    1. Shield Block: A lot of warriors still use this ability as a threat ability, when it is so much more then that. Used at 100% hp its almost wasted with the amount of incoming dmg there is now, I try to save this for sub 60% hp.

    2. Shield Wall: A lot of warriors still make the mistake of using this too late. 20-30% hp with no incoming heals is a great time to use this ability. If you wait too late and use it there's a good chance the next attack will kill you anyway.

    3. Last stand/enraged regen/satrinas: I tend to macro these three together for when a heavy flow of fast/hard hits start coming in, Raid buffed with last stand/trinket im lookin at 75k hp and regen at that amount of hp is no joke and can take a lot of stress off of your healers. When I have a slow hard hitting boss I like to seperate these and use trinket around 25k hp or lower if shield block is up.

    4. MAKE SURE that Thunderclap and Demo Shout are ALWAYS up. or now that raid sac has been nerfed maybe it wouldn't hurt to have a ret pally spec back into vindication if your warrs threat relys on that 1 gcd.

    5. Glyphs/Spec: This isn't naxx anymore. If you cant reach a decent amount of hit and you just can not afford for your taunt to miss(Gormok 2 tank strat, 4 impales each tank), carry around some extra taunt glyphs and be prepared to switch back and forth for progression fights.

    In short tell your warrior to start using his shield block for useful mitigation rather then threat and it wouldnt hurt to drop some hit for some avoidance. Sure it's nice to have but with rogues and the new misdirect, getting your warr far enough ahead on threat in the first 10 sec of the battle isn't really a problem. Also proper CD usage can make or break any fight for a warrior tank.
    Last edited by Rawkz; 12-14-2009 at 08:34 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,360
    Was your warrior tank that was being hit so hard being hit by the Deformed Fanatics with the debuff on?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    2) Demo shout/Vindication. This is one of my pet peeves. Vindication overwrites demo shout. If you're both hitting the same mob, your vindication will overwrite his demo. Then if you turn away to hit something for 10 secs, your vindication falls off & he doesnt realize it and he gets pwnd. We wiped quite a few times on heroic Gormok till we realized what was happening. My way around it? I use Satrina's Buff Frames, with a new frame showing a filtered list of debuffs that are of interest to me. I watch the vindication timer, if it falls off, i pop my demo shout.
    This is a really, really good point and I'll take a long look at this, thank you. Knowing my guys and the fact that as a paladin, I basically never miss a raid... this is a very likely possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Even if your 28k and 20k hits were the product of parry hasting, 48k HP fully buffed seems pretty low
    I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - 48k wasn't enough to kill him. It was the 48k spike in .16 seconds, at least according to our deathlogs, that killed him. Clearly if that was lethal he wasn't topped off, and healers could do that better, but I'm trying not to go back to my healers with an answer of "durrrr, you gots to heal good too." He was tanking 2-3 mobs at the time, swings are going to come in fast, top offs aren't going to last long.

    Quote Originally Posted by pktan View Post
    . Later I realised that the 2 mobs tends to move around randomly with any slight tank movement. Most of the case one of the fanatics will move behind me, and thats when I received the "spike" damage.

    With this "discovery", I will make sure I shockwave both fanatics when they are close to me, then position myself infront of the mobs, then hit shield block. No more "spike" damage from then on.
    This is the known current pathing bug introduced in 3.3 affecting most, if not all mobs in the game. Pissing the hell out of me. The shockwave trick is good advice that I'll pass on though.

    As to everyone addressing the deformed fanatics with their crazy beast debuff that makes them hit like a sledgehammer, no, that's not what I was concerned about killing him. That's SUPPOSED to kill anyone. My point was just more to the fact that, as example of the unfortunate reality that Paladin mitigation, especially in danger zones due to Ardent defender, is significantly smoother and more automatic than warriors, is that I HAVE successfully and repeatedly taken these guys to the face. My healers did immediately say "you're probably not supposed to do that," but the above poster claiming "and to say you can and he cant is really untrue," I said that I have and he hasn't. The facts of what we've successfully done with the same healers are just that, facts.

    I do appreciate all the advice on the warrior front - particularly the use of shieldblock as a defensive cooldown and not a threat one, i would never have thought of that since I obviously equate it to my holy shield, which is in rotation. I may also make him lose the hit and glyph back into taunt to make up for it.

    Thanks again.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    549
    There are some gear options and spec things your warrior can do to help a bit. But if your warrior is worried about losing taunts in taunt-important fights, just change glyphs. I started to carry around literally four stacks of glyphs to swap out for fights just because of my lack of hit (and since I was changing them on a per-fight basis I wanted options). This literally is a game changer and it easy. Screw the hit - just glyph. I can't stress how much this stupid little thing changed things and I've only been doing it for two days.

    I'm at the same point as your warrior I suppose. I have about 47-49k HP fully buffed depending on trinkets (which I would think is MORE than enough) but I can get owned with some unlucky spikes that happen too quick to cd out of. I'm guessing that AD is allowing pallys to survive those blasts by the skin of their teeth and sheer luck. (Also in equal/like gear the pally will always have more HP, this is due to talents giving the pally like 12% more stam vs the warriors %6 - just throwing that out there.)
    Last edited by protonly; 12-15-2009 at 05:41 AM.
    Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Cornwall, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    875
    Quote Originally Posted by protonly View Post
    But if your warrior is worried about losing taunts in taunt-important fights, just change glyphs. I started to carry around literally four stacks of glyphs to swap out for fights just because of my lack of hit (and since I was changing them on a per-fight basis I wanted options). This literally is a game changer and it easy. Screw the hit - just glyph.
    This


    Hit is often over rated for warriors. I didn't have more then 22hit throughout the latter half of T9.5

    Concentrate on living before threat... glyph'ing taunt allows you to focus gear on what matters... survivability.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
    Drae

    http://www.zetbit.com/sig-1454507.jpg


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    93
    I know it is a jerk thing to say also, But have you considered diversifying your tank group a little more? Right now my guild has Me(Frost DW) and Druid as our main tanks, we also have 2 warriors that are about 1/2 tier worth of gear behind me and the druid (we are the progression tanks for 25). We also have at least 1 other frost DK about a full tier behind, and a paladin keeping up on his own accord (he plays with the azns in our guild and does 25's with them).

    But I suppose my point is that we have found rolling with a lot of the same types of tank at the same time can highly limit your options, and if that is all you have to work with then your warriors have to find a way to make it happen. (we have very little issue with our warriors, we let them handle stuff they can single target tank.) If they can't, it may be time to see if anyone has a desire to tank, or find you a Druid/DK to take one of those warrior spots.
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    1
    Thanks everyone for the advice. Hopefully this is gonna help.

    I have spec'd into improved disciplines to see how things go with that. Just used Veneretio's non-deep wounds that he's currently running to see how things go with that before tweaking maybe.

    As for Shield Blocking...yeah. Guilty as charged. I'm using it to pump up my Shield Slam as opposed to a defensive use. Will give it a whirl in a more defensive use and see how that helps out.

    Also, once again, the cooldowns have been used in a more reactive vs proactive manner. In the past have always considered them as an OH CRAP NO HEALS button and that's going to be a hard habit to break, but doable.

    As to a variety of tanks? Yeah. Sad but true that's kind of where we've fallen to. A lot of guilds have a large stack of DK's - We didn't have a single one in Raid last night. We have a Druid that kind of swing tanks sometimes, but hardly ever in our 25 mans because he's one of our top DPS. Would be nice to have variety. We've had some more apps rolling in lately...hopefully we'll have the variety I crave sooner rather than later.

    Thanks for all the advice. I would LOVE to put Zo into his place and out survive him.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,360
    When we downed 25 Deathwhisper the other night, we had me (a warrior) on the side with the 2-3 fanatics (3 when one spawned on the stairs because it would be misdirected to me). I found that as a warrior I was best prepared to handle these mobs when compared with our bear or paladin tanks. With Shockwave, I can keep them stunned 1/5 of the time, with concussion blow, I can keep the third, if there's a third stunned until at least one of the fanatics is dead. Whenever the stuns were down, I'd always use Shield Block. If all of those were down and I had 3 adds, I'd pop Shield Wall. It ended up not being that bad. In addition to all of this, shield slam purges the buffs from them, helping them to die faster.

    Keep in mind, however, that the larger damage ability that the fanatics do, their cleave, is shadow damage, and not physical, so extra armor is not much use on this fight. I also use the Ony helm and ring to tank this, so I have a fair amount of shadow resistance with the druid mark, which probably helps quite a bit.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    85
    Honestly, if a warrior is failing on Deathwhisper adds, he is just not doing it right. They are (imo) the strongest tank for this part of the fight because of all the utility they provide.

    1. TC + Demo to debuff the all the adds.
    2. Shield slam to remove the mobs buffs.
    3. Stuns/interrupts to position and control the mobs (keep them in front of you while not cleaving your dps).
    4. If a deformed fanatic comes up, use a cooldown (and try to stunlock it as much as possible).
    5. Spell Reflect is a nice bonus too.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts