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Thread: Icecrown Deathbringer Saurfang

  1. #141
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    Just posting some tips, some of these have already been said but sometimes they are buried in posts

    General tips

    -If you have not used the let the marked players die strategy then you should try it.
    Right now it is pointless to worry about heroics, we wont see heroics for at least a month or so. Saurfang will block your way when the new wing is out so you want to do anything you can to defeat him and worry about adjusting the strategy later. Also, you can sacrifice healers with this strat if you run with 5 or more healers, 4 healers can heal through the fight if there are few marks active. The only members you can't sacrifice are your tanks.

    -Bring as few healers as possible.
    DPS is much more important than healing in this fight. There is a point where the healers cannot keep up with the number of marks, and the BP gain is just too great. 5 healers in 25 and 2 healers in 10 is plenty. You could probably get away with 4 healers and 1 healer with sufficient dps. Also, your holy priests and shaman healers should be dpsing until you have marks out that you be healing through. Disc priests still need to be shielding people to reduce BP gain and paladins and druids can keep up the tanks and raid on their own when no marks are out.

    -If you can't fully spread out to avoid blood nova, stack a few people on top of each other.
    You should have your priests (shadow/holy/disc) in melee with the boss to reduce the number of people you have at ranged, they can fade and should be outputting less threat than your resto druids/holy paladins with RF and the shadow priest should be doing less aggro than your other ranged dps, notably hunters/warlocks. If you still can't adequately spread out have a couple people stack on top of each other. The guaranteed 2 BP is better than having 4-5 BP if you don't have enough room.

    Add tips

    -If you have trouble with the adds pair up ranged dps to focus on a particular add.
    You assign an add to each pair of ranged dps and have them separated from each other (not across the room from each other because they might not be able to dps properly). Preferably you have at least one of them with a threat reducing ability that they can use when the add gets close, then the add will move to the other person. You should not have to move at all with 2 dps on an add that should be bouncing between them. This also keeps adds off of healers and/or incidental melee aoe because the direct dps should output considerable more threat than healing or that aoe.

    -If you have trouble with adds you can have an unholy DK spec into desecration . It isn't a huge dps loss but it ensures that most of the adds are initially snared when they come and you can just lay hunter traps further away from the boss to have more slow areas. The DK might have to adjust his positioning a bit to be able to get the adds within the desecration area. Alternatively you can assign DKs to Chains of Ice (CoI) particular mobs to have an increased snare. But the target switching of mutliple dks might not be worth the dps loss compared to one unholy dks grabbing desecration.

    -Melee can help kill adds
    Just have somebody stun it or you can have a DK CoI move away and taunt. The add should die within the stun or the taunt.


    Healing Tips:


    -Assign paladin beacon targets on marks that you will keep up. Only one tank is taking damage at a time and the tank swaps occur much quicker than the beacon duration. It is easier to fire up the beacon on a marked target and then heal whatever tank is currently tanking, than it is to constantly be changing beacon on the tanks while healing that marked target.

    -Have the resto shaman heal 2-3 melee marks. It is quite easy for a resto shaman to heal the marked melee players they can easily keep up 2 marked targets in melee on their own and can keep up 3-4 of them comfortably with some WG and CoH help thrown in.

    -Make sure your disc priests are abusing absorb mechanics. They should even direct heal blood boil targets to stack up divine aegis absorbs. Any fully absorbed tick will not generate BP.

  2. #142
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    Has anyone "measured" which is the minimum number of distance needed to keep the blood nova off the melee? Minimizing them would make it easier to handle novas/repositioning/add kiting.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helistar View Post
    Has anyone "measured" which is the minimum number of distance needed to keep the blood nova off the melee? Minimizing them would make it easier to handle novas/repositioning/add kiting.
    Don't have enough test cases however my data would point towards 10 in 25 man and 4 in 10 man (40% of the total raid size, identical to General Vezax Shadow Crash).

    With 10 out melee got hit by none, with 9 out melee got hit by one though it's difficult to determine if it was actually cast on a melee or potentially a healer who might have simply been standing a little too far back and not stacking correctly.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 12-28-2009 at 10:05 AM.

  4. #144
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    We tried again last night - got no further than 15%.

    Make up was:

    1 prot war, 1 prot pally
    1 holy pally, 1 resto druid
    1 elemental shaman
    1 enhancement shaman
    1 arcane/slow mage
    1 hunter
    1 warlock
    1 rogue

    On our previous kill we had gotten it by only dedicating two of our ranged to kill and kite the adds, while the rest of the DPS concentrated on Saurfang. However, this time we had more trouble with that - our kiters just weren't killing adds quickly enough and often ended up running around, which in turn, lowered their DPS.

    Our average raid DPS was around 30k - our best attempt we got 1 mark around 35%, but then lost it during the frenzy.

  5. #145
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    Have your melee DPS kill one of the adds and ranged kill the other. They are susceptable to stuns and you have a rogue which provides some stuns as well as your Prot Warrior can throw out a Shockwave as well in that general direction. If its stunned, it's not generating Blood Power. Apply enough DPS to each target such that no one has to kite. If you have to kite, DPS drops substantially.

  6. #146
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    Just tried the 10 man version with 2 tanks, 3 heals and 5 DPS.
    I am wondering, what is a good average raid DPS to aim for in 10 man?

  7. #147
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    The theoretical absolute minimum for 10 man is around 22,500 raid DPS that's the minimum required assuming the boss never heals at all and you kill him before the berzerk timer. Most 10 mans will have around 30,000 raid DPS for this fight.

  8. #148
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    We had a few problems with this fight, mainly cause we had to take 2 healers reached the berserk timer once on his last 300k health wiped on the rest of the attempts.
    Me and the other tank stunned the blood beasts with shockwave and hammer of justice, to buy us another 4 sec to kill them. This was dangerous however, cause we may get aggro from doing so, but we usually didnt, since our hunters outthreated us.

  9. #149
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    Thanks for the hints - now he is down on second try. Did it with 2 tanks, 2 heals and rest dps.
    Taunting at exactly the right time on BloodRune and add-management is absolutely crucial in this fight. Extra DPS can make up for 1 or 2 tank mistakes but I think that's about it.
    We did not let anyone die from the mark.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pieterman View Post
    We had a few problems with this fight, mainly cause we had to take 2 healers reached the berserk timer once on his last 300k health wiped on the rest of the attempts.
    Me and the other tank stunned the blood beasts with shockwave and hammer of justice, to buy us another 4 sec to kill them. This was dangerous however, cause we may get aggro from doing so, but we usually didnt, since our hunters outthreated us.
    If you're hitting the Berzerk timer you have insufficient DPS and have to either get stronger players, farm more gear that you should already have by this point, or revise your strategy to improve DPS efficiency. Once the boss is berzerk, Mark of the Fallen Champion will one shot people and heal him for a lot of health basically instantly after going berzerk.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    If you're hitting the Berzerk timer you have insufficient DPS and have to either get stronger players, farm more gear that you should already have by this point, or revise your strategy to improve DPS efficiency.
    It is also possible they are letting Saurfang heal too much because the 2 tanks are lazy and/or slow on their taunts.

  12. #152
    There was hardly any mention of priest healers until page 7 :O.

    Boiling Blood is THE largest and most continual contribution to the amount of BP gained by Saurfang, particularly on 25 man.

    First mentioned by Quinafoi:

    Your priest healer should be discipline for this fight. They basically spend their time keeping bubbles on everyone not in melee (since they are the targets on Blood Nova), anyone with Boiling Blood debuff, or anyone with the Mark of the Fallen Champion debuff.
    and then clarrified further by him:

    The comment about the melee is irrelevant. A discipline priest should always shield people with Boiling Blood regardless of where they are because it's predictable damage that can be avoided. Melee also would never run out, Boiling Blood isn't an AoE or anything, it's a 21 second DoT.
    Now I not 100% sure, but I do not think the priest HAS to be discipline. What I mean to say is, I think ANY shield effect can work to reduce the amount of BP Saurfang gets from Boiling Blood. Again, I say I am not sure on this, but I am essentially suggesting that the dot need not be absorbed completely, but even just partially, and this will still limit the BP Saurfang gains.

    There's really just 2 "tips" to trivialising this fight on 25 man:

    1. Bring at least one priest and his absolute number one focus is get shields up fast on players with Boiling Blood.

    2. Dealing with the adds well...slowing effects, focus fire (assist assigned dpsers), CC, push back, aoe stuns etc etc

    Our last two attepts made this boss look by far the easiest of the 4 bosses.

    Our second most recent attempt we wanted to see how few Marks we could restrict him to by allowing the first person to get Marked to die (a melee dps btw). We killed the boss with him getting just 2 Marks away on 25 man and this is with 6 healers (most of them, except the priest(s), probably fallen asleep by the end of the fight).

    Our most recent kill we didn't "let the first marked die" and he still only just got the 3rd Mark away when he was like 5% HP left.

    Take a priest and work out how to deal with the adds well (with your raid composition) and this really does make the fight ALOT easier. At first I thought it was a very high raid dps requirement for Saurfang, but I believe with good execution of 1 and 2 that raids with lower dps than ideal could still down it without too many problems.

    There are some other nice tips like good communication that help; for example of when to use hand of protection on marked people.

    So that was my input on Saurfang 25 man. I read 7 pages of barely a mention of priests and then page 7 saw some and just wanted to bump this important factor. Also to mention that it may not need to be full absorption for the boss to not gain BP from Boiling Blood (eg. sacred shield). If you read Deathbringer Saurfang - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft you can see the mention of shielding boiling blood there even.
    Last edited by Xlight; 12-31-2009 at 10:33 AM.

  13. #153
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    If your priest isn't dual speced for discipline, then by all means, make due with what you have. If a raid has only one priest in it, and they are dual speced holy and discipline, and would choose to heal this fight as holy rather than discipline... as a raid leader I think its time to start shoping for a new priest.

    Discipline is the spec designed for damage prevention, holy is the spec designed for healing damage taken. Functionally holy paladins, restoration shaman and restoration druids also are designed for healing damage taken. Discipline is unique in the fact that it excels at preventing damage, and is like several times better at it than their holy counterpart. I would view this priest as simply trying to pad meters for themselves rather than functionally serving their optimal role.

    You make a big deal about how you kill him with only 3 marks, that is a tribute to your raid DPS and proper handling of the adds while maintaining high DPS on the boss. If your healer was Discipline, the improved strength of Power Word: Shield alone would lower that to 2 marks if not all the way down to 1 mark.

  14. #154
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    Disc Priests trivialize this fight. They shift it from "first mark around 40-45%" to "kill him without marks".

  15. #155
    If your healer was Discipline, the improved strength of Power Word: Shield alone would lower that to 2 marks if not all the way down to 1 mark.
    Our priest(s) do go discipline for this fight. The point I was trying to raise was whether the damage has to be completely absorbed or not. I am not sure about this, but in a casual raiding guild like ours sometimes we can't find a particular class and I am wondering if other shield effects would work...like if you have a few paladins in your raid if they could restrict blood power gains using sacred shield...also whether shields from Val'anyr, the Ulduar mace, work. Basically I'm raising the question: Does the damage have to be completely absorbed in order to stop BP from BB or is a partial absorption enough?
    Last edited by Xlight; 12-31-2009 at 10:36 AM.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xlight View Post
    Our priest(s) do go discipline for this fight. The point I was trying to raise was whether the damage has to be completely absorbed or not. I am not sure about this, but in a casual raiding guild like ours sometimes we can't find a particular class and I am wondering if other shield effects would work...like if you have a few paladins in your raid if they could restrict blood power gains using sacred shield...also whether shields from Val'anyr, the Ulduar mace, work. Basically I'm raising the question: Does the damage have to be completely absorbed in order to stop BP from BB or is a partial absorption enough?
    My understanding of the combat system might be a little off but I believe the following holds true...

    A full absorb fires combat log event:
    _MISSED

    A partial absorb fires combat log event (with value absorbed as a parameter):
    _DAMAGE

    Even though they should fire different event types, it's possible the encounter could be coded to also not gain Blood Power on partial absorbs. This is really hard to prove without looking at a combat log in very close detail. I can't say definitively one way or the other if partial absorbs prevent Blood Power gains or not.

    Blood Power isn't a buff but rather the UnitPowerType (mana, energy, rage, ect) of Deathbringer Saurfang. Because it is a UnitPowerType, the combat log entries that relate to gaining it should be (one of the following):
    _ENERGIZE
    _DRAIN
    _LEECH

    All this asside though, several items that should be in the combat log aren't showing in 3.3 because of something Blizzard messed up (like why Slam alert is broken is because the buff gain is no longer logged). So even if everything above is true, it's possible there simply may be no entry in the log at all because the log is broken.

    Sorry to say right now I don't have enough information available to answer that question.

    *edit* Did some combat log checking and Blood Power gains are not logged, just the events related to his abilities. So it litterally comes down to counting the amount of events prior to Mark being first cast and seeing if partial absorbs were included in the count to 100 or not. You likely can only do it for the first cast since any following cast may be off because of events which could have triggered gaining Blood Power while at 100 Blood Power, thus netting 0 gain for the boss (mark has a cast time and he can gain Blood Power during that time).
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 01-01-2010 at 02:31 AM.

  17. #157
    I have been raiding this guy the last 3 weeks only to have him stomp us at about 15% every try. We usually get our first mark around 40% and use our bloodlust at 25% like suggested, but we just can't seem to control the blood beasts as well when we have a marked player and Saurfang is enraged. Our best attempt is 2% and that's only because our first mark hit our OT and we could easily keep him alive. The second mark is what is really hurting us as our healers can't keep up the marked player and the 5% health gain demoralizes the raid.

    We raid strictly 10 man content and was wondering if the "Let the marked player die" strat is still useable in 10 man.

    Our raid consists of.

    1 Warrior, 1 Paladin tank
    1 Resto Shaman, 1 Resto druid healer
    DPS: 1 Unholy DK, 1 Ret Pally, 1 Enhance shaman, 1 Arcane or fire mage, 1 Survival Hunter, and 1 S-Priest.

    S-Priest is usually a disc healer but our shaman and druid don't have DPS sets up to par for ICC.

    Our best strat so far has been to have the hunter pickup one beast, then have a tank taunt them back when they close in and drag them back across the trap while the other ranged stun/slow and burn the second beast. Then clean up the other and back to the boss. All Melee staying on Saurfang.

    Our raid DPS is around 34k between our 6 DPS.
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  18. #158
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    in 10 man, if you're reaching more than 2 marks, your dps isn't high enough from what I can tell.

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  19. #159
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    no mark strat...

    Just downed Saurfang 10-man with no marks cast on my group. Pug group actually…

    Party makeup
    1 mage
    1 hunter
    1 DK(dps)
    2 Pallys(1 heals, 1 tank)
    1 rogue
    1 priest(Disc heals)
    1 shammy(elemental dps)
    1 warlock
    1 Druid(tank)

    Raid DPS was only 26k, Average GS was 5050, very simple strat.

    Tank will tank on top of the stairs. Mage, warlock and Shammy (Mage and warlock can be replaced by any ranged DPS, Shammy is good to have though…) are spread out on the left side. Hunter should be on the far right. When adds spawn, have all caster DPS burn the left add while the hunter kites the right. Shammy should drop a slow totem, and if arranged correctly the add will have to go through it to reach Casters.

    The hunter shouldn’t get hit once, set Frost traps, Disengage, Concussive shot, Deterrence… If ranged DPS times their procs/cd’s with DBM’s add spawn bar, they should be able to eliminate the left add in around 3-7 seconds, quicker if mage can send a 4AB stack and missile barrage right when it spawns. If DPS gets hit by the adds they suck, each class has a way to stun/freeze/slow/knockback etc... After the left is dead, all casters focus on the right, which should still be on the hunter. This one should go down almost as quickly, with no one getting hit. Obviously, after adds are gone, ranged focuses back onto Saurfang.

    Melee should stay on the boss, and should be bubbled by disc priest as much as possible, along with the tanks to reduce the blood power Saurfang gains when using boiling blood debuff and blood nova. After that it is simple rinse and repeat. Blood lust after an add wave when Saurfang is around 30% life.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oedipusdakng View Post
    I have been raiding this guy the last 3 weeks only to have him stomp us at about 15% every try. We usually get our first mark around 40% and use our bloodlust at 25% like suggested, but we just can't seem to control the blood beasts as well when we have a marked player and Saurfang is enraged. Our best attempt is 2% and that's only because our first mark hit our OT and we could easily keep him alive. The second mark is what is really hurting us as our healers can't keep up the marked player and the 5% health gain demoralizes the raid.

    We raid strictly 10 man content and was wondering if the "Let the marked player die" strat is still useable in 10 man.

    Our raid consists of.

    1 Warrior, 1 Paladin tank
    1 Resto Shaman, 1 Resto druid healer
    DPS: 1 Unholy DK, 1 Ret Pally, 1 Enhance shaman, 1 Arcane or fire mage, 1 Survival Hunter, and 1 S-Priest.

    S-Priest is usually a disc healer but our shaman and druid don't have DPS sets up to par for ICC.

    Our best strat so far has been to have the hunter pickup one beast, then have a tank taunt them back when they close in and drag them back across the trap while the other ranged stun/slow and burn the second beast. Then clean up the other and back to the boss. All Melee staying on Saurfang.

    Our raid DPS is around 34k between our 6 DPS.
    Stun and kill one of the adds. Ranged kill the other, should be able to kill it before it gets to the hunter if a frost trap was used. If you do 10k DPS to the add, it dies in 10 seconds.

    Step one, prot warrior tanks the boss with their toon at a slight angle.
    Step two, adds spawn, SHOCKWAVE.
    - Stunned adds don't hit, therefore, no Blood Power.
    Step three, melee kill the stunned add.
    Step four, if melee DPS can't kill the add in 5 seconds of stun, you have two paladins which can alternate Hammer of Justice on every other wave for a full 6 seconds more.

    You're DPS is high enough to kill the boss, so kill him already. If your problem is Blood Beasts, rather than taking 30 seconds to kill them, kill them in 10 seconds and get back on the boss.

    Death is the best form of CC. Kill the adds faster, then you don't have to deal with them as long. You pull all your DPS off the boss, sure, but only for a short time. You aren't really hurting your DPS a lot by having your melee switch targets temporarily. You're mainly having less burden on your ranged DPS.

    Other advantages you gain by letting the melee kill an add is they don't need to take any abilities out of their rotation. The hunter can always use distracting shot if necessary to pull the one being killed by range out and the one being killed by melee is being stuned until dead.

    Number 2, run 3 healers. Honestly, your shadow priest probably isn't doing a ton for you DPS anyway. As discipline though their power word shields will make his Blood Power gains drop substantially. At least make one of the other healers DPS if you want to stay 2 healers though I suspect your DPS will still be fine to kill the boss with 3 healers.

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