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Thread: Icecrown Deathbringer Saurfang

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Blood Nova is the mechanic which prefers ranged targets.
    Boiling Blood could always be cast on melee.
    Darn, got them mixed up. Point still stands that he appears to be casting Blood Nova on melee now. I am fairly certain we had the normal amount of ranged so it isn't a case of just need more people in ranged. Anyone else notice this change?

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Predakhan View Post
    Darn, got them mixed up. Point still stands that he appears to be casting Blood Nova on melee now. I am fairly certain we had the normal amount of ranged so it isn't a case of just need more people in ranged. Anyone else notice this change?
    One shot the boss again this week in 25 man using the standard 10 ranged targets. Log indicates no Blood Nova hits on melee targets. Also have a second 25 man raid that also does ICC and they also logged 0 melee hit by Blood Nova. Are you sure you are using enough targets at range? Also note if a ranged person dies, your number of ranged targets changes. Granted these cases could simply be a matter of luck, in the old system with 9 ranged targets he only has 1 target in melee that is a valid target (likely the furthest one) and therefore only has a one tenth chance of picking melee on any Blood Nova (you could simply get lucky everytime). Since we one shot it there isn't much data, for us the data still supports the claim that 10 ranged is what you need in 25 man to avoid having melee be targeted by Blood Nova. Sorry I can't provide much more insight into the issue you had but for us the issue did not occur (which could simply be a matter of luck too, that's the problem with random number generators, though getting lucky 40 times does seem like there is a trend to favor ranged targets).
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    Daelo comments on absorption effects and some other changes:

    Absorbs such as Power Word: Shield no longer prevent Blood Power from being gained when damage is dealt by Saurfang. Casting Power Word: Shield is not a bad thing to do as the ability will absorb the damage dealt. This was an intentional 3.3.2 change. We also removed the ability to knockback the Blood Beasts off the platform and the removed of Blood Power gain from Mark of the Fallen Champion damage. We unfortunately missed getting these changes into the patch notes.
    I will make this general recommendation to people. Don't change your healing strategy for this encounter. Tank healing isn't really a big issue and it isn't a very healing intensive fight, just ramps up over time if you don't have enough DPS. Keep your discipline priests on raid healing. Even if the absorbs do not affect Blood Power gains, they still make healing the encounter easier.

    You will get marks faster at the start, however slower over time. This is because they will be at a relatively consistent rate provided you continue to execute the encounter correctly, dealing with the mechanics and particularly the Blood Beasts appropriately. You get marks at a consistent rate, say for your particular DPS it comes to every 30%, so you have 1 at 70%, 2 at 40%, 3 at 10%. It's no longer a ramping up problem where if the first one is 30%, the next one is only 20% away because it no longer increases Blood Power gain itself. This is what they mean by getting rid of the "just let them die" tactic. Since it doesn't really change the rate you get marks, it's no longer important to sacrifice the first person or two. Your retribution paladins will thank you for not making them kill themselves every time.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  4. #204
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    Ok now i realize this is probably a dumb idea but i feel the need to ask any ways, is it possible to tank saurfang by the portal (after the boat disappears) and knock the adds off the cliff? My guess is no but if it did work that would be amazingly easy.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBike View Post
    Ok now i realize this is probably a dumb idea but i feel the need to ask any ways, is it possible to tank saurfang by the portal (after the boat disappears) and knock the adds off the cliff? My guess is no but if it did work that would be amazingly easy.

    They fixed it so you can no longer knock them off the platform. Invisible Safety Railings Inc. installed some new rails for safety. The Lich King doesn't want you falling to your death, least not until he does it himself.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  6. #206
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    My Guild (at least the run that i was in with the guild) couldn't seem to down him because of the blood beasts (our dps was fine) should we kill one of them and then kill the other or kite them both to different sides?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameyscott View Post
    My Guild (at least the run that i was in with the guild) couldn't seem to down him because of the blood beasts (our dps was fine) should we kill one of them and then kill the other or kite them both to different sides?
    We usually have 4 ranged dps (2 on each side) who get the job done perfectly. 2 healers are standing between them (close to the portal) and both tanks and 2 melee dps on the boss at stairs.
    2 dps do just enough damage to kill one add without any kiting (each of them does roughly around 5k dps). Of course we use earthbind totem and/or hunter's trap right under the stairs before the adds spawn. Boomkin and elem shama are doing their knockback tricks if needed (boomkin on the left, shama on the right). Warlock sometimes stuns both adds after their spawn to give the raid few more seconds. Before 3.3.2 patch we were killing the boss with 0 marks on the raid. After blizz nerfed shields mechanic we are killing the boss with 1 mark.

  8. #208
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    thx tankspot for great help with all things, but wouldnt it be best if both tanks mainly focused on dodge for this fight, cause u'll avoid atatcks and thus not having him gain blood power, therefore wouldnt a druid tank be best for this fight and after that a DK?

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by gifca View Post
    thx tankspot for great help with all things, but wouldnt it be best if both tanks mainly focused on dodge for this fight, cause u'll avoid atatcks and thus not having him gain blood power, therefore wouldnt a druid tank be best for this fight and after that a DK?

    When Deathbringer Saurfang uses Rune of Blood on the tank, which is the only ability he uses on the tanks which would generate Blood Power, he gains Blood Power every swing on that tank, irrelevant of if the attack connects. His melee attack may miss, but the effect of Rune of Blood can not. The only proper way to handle this is with fast tank switching. Blood Beasts have to hit their target to generate Blood Power, so only if you are actually tanking the beasts would you consider avoidance, which is generally advised against because the DPS should be handling it without the tank.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  10. #210
    Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
    Raid Makeup:
    Tanks: Pally, DK
    Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
    Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
    Healer: Shaman

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionDemon View Post
    Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
    Raid Makeup:
    Tanks: Pally, DK
    Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
    Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
    Healer: Shaman

    Most classes with AoE type abilities have target thresholds they require in order for it to be viable. For example a mage or warlock would typically require 4 or more mobs for AoE to overtake single target DPS (3 targets if they spec into talents which improve AoE effectiveness). However, since Blood Beasts have natural AoE resistence of 90%, using AoE on them you'd have to have around 40 targets (however AoE caps at 10 targets) in order for your AoE DPS to theorectically reach the point where it would overtake your single target DPS on them. If they are using AoE DPS they are gimping themselves. You are in fact single target focusing the adds down. Saying your are using AoE is a likely a misstatement. I seriously doubt your Moonkin for example is sitting there spamming Hurricane all fight long doing like 2k DPS on a fight that requires closer to 5k per DPS. Since they are 90% resistent to AoE, you will never have more DPS on them using AoE abilities than you would simply retargeting and burning them down.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  12. #212
    This may sound a bit silly but bringing an active prot warr as tank (I am one :')) can be a great help with the adds here. Usually what I do is when I notice a side is a bit slow with the adds I just shockwave 1 add side when they come up, if ranged DPS is active you should have no aggro issues. If I happen to have the blood on me and the other tank is tanking then I actually charge/stun adds wich is a great help for the ranged dps since they can nuke the adds down way faster en move to the boss. I also found that the tank that starts the event can help on adds most since of the blood/blood beast timing.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionDemon View Post
    Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
    Raid Makeup:
    Tanks: Pally, DK
    Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
    Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
    Healer: Shaman

    To my knowledge, AOE does little to the blood beasts.

  14. #214
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    a guildy of mine recorded our single heal 10 saurfang hope the site heads dont have any issues with me linking the fight
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-95mKREkRVk
    this was recorded on 3/9/2010
    this had to be one of my trickier times doing this since our main tank(metallican) got saurfang special ability on him near the end. i did say this was possable an want to let people see it s possable with out any one dying in the end

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameyscott View Post
    My Guild (at least the run that i was in with the guild) couldn't seem to down him because of the blood beasts (our dps was fine) should we kill one of them and then kill the other or kite them both to different sides?
    main trick is have all your range always on the beast when their out no matter how many you have on either side don't matter range should always kill the beats befor switching back to saurfang.
    should a beats get close to some one have the move around till the rest of your range kill it, now it dont matter if you have a kill order or not just make sure range kill them off in 10 man they dont take to long to down so as long as all you range switch to the other ones up when theirs is down you should be fine for the most part

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionDemon View Post
    Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
    Raid Makeup:
    Tanks: Pally, DK
    Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
    Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
    Healer: Shaman
    yes single healing it has been noted i know i did it at one point an some one else may have before then

    you raid make up is fine for the most part...but using aoes to down them is beyond risky, main reason it is is do in part to the fact the most range can do better dps if they focus on a single target. with the single target it will also make it easier to keep them away from your healer, a druid useing typhoon is about the only aoe style attack worth being used most just cause it give range a hair more time to down the beasts

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Predakhan View Post
    Darn, got them mixed up. Point still stands that he appears to be casting Blood Nova on melee now. I am fairly certain we had the normal amount of ranged so it isn't a case of just need more people in ranged. Anyone else notice this change?
    main trick tank him at the last step an if melee gets the mark have them step back to the door it should get them at or further then 10 yards. the boil is more random then anything these days so don't try to figure it out just keep it away from people not hit by it. but yes more often then not it does go after range first, its not that hard to heal through so don't go worrying about it

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by pertyspell View Post
    main trick tank him at the last step an if melee gets the mark have them step back to the door it should get them at or further then 10 yards. the boil is more random then anything these days so don't try to figure it out just keep it away from people not hit by it. but yes more often then not it does go after range first, its not that hard to heal through so don't go worrying about it
    Not sure where this is going... you can not determine the target of a Blood Nova before it is cast and the Blood Nova is the only ability which requires you to be spread out. Mark of the Fallen Champion just means you're taking damage as well. Boiling Blood just means you have a DoT on you. No mechanic other than Blood Nova has anything to do with spreading out.

    With sufficient "eligible" targets at range melee is not hit by Blood Nova. There are ways which melee can be hit...
    if a hunter runs in to lay a trap
    if a ranged is standing too close to the melee
    if the melee or boss moves such that the melee is now at range
    if a ranged player dies
    if a ranged player is immune to the effect (if you have a paladin healer at range that has divine shield up, they can't be picked because they are immune)
    if a ranged player is off the combat table (hunter feign death, rogue vanish, mage invisibility, divine intervention)

    You need 10 targets at range for 25 man.
    You need 4 targets at range for 10 man.


    Show me a video of a kill where he picks a melee target for Blood Nova and when he picks that target and I can probably explain to you why he didn't pick a ranged. Sadly a combat log won't suffice because combat logs don't tell you the positions of people.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 03-11-2010 at 09:19 AM.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  19. #219
    the other night we tried him on 10 man the tanks were haveing a real hard time taunting him. he keeped going immune and that made it hard to keep him form healing himself dose anyone know why he would go immune and what we can do we had a Paladin and Warrior tank any info would be of help

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Sergant Nikolai View Post
    the other night we tried him on 10 man the tanks were haveing a real hard time taunting him. he keeped going immune and that made it hard to keep him form healing himself dose anyone know why he would go immune and what we can do we had a Paladin and Warrior tank any info would be of help
    Paladin is using Hand of Reckoning in their normal threat rotation and putting taunt on deminished return. That's the most likely culprit.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

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