He's been hotfixed so he heals too much for 1 tank strategy to be viable.
We have tried and tried to kill the guy and can't seem to be doing it. We are running with the following:
2 tanks, 3 healers, and 5 dps.
What should the dps be at for this fight for each person? Someone in our group said it should be around 3.5k and higher. Or is there really a cut off point for dps?
Also do we really need 3 healers, or would another dps actually be more beneficial? I have noticed that a lot of people are saying they ran with only 2 healers so they could have the extra dps, would it help if one of the healers we have dps until they are needed to heal?
In order to kill him before the berzerk timer, assuming 0 heals, you need roughly 22,500 raid DPS. That's basically the absolute minimum. Now if you're bringing people only doing 3,500 DPS as DPS, then you're about 5,000 DPS short that needs to be picked up by your tanks. 3,500 DPS is really pushing the low end though. Your DPS should be mostly 4,000-6,000. Bare in mind that people dealing with adds will be doing a decent chunk of DPS lower than they would normally since they will be kiting and using abilities which typically aren't part of their optimal DPS rotation. There is also a cost to DPS whenever you have to change targets. Chances are if you have people doing 3,500 DPS, they probably can't kill the adds before the next spawn because their DPS will be lower while kiting and 2,500 DPS is the minimum required to kill an add before the next one spawns.
Originally Posted by boommerr
We were doing this on 10 man last night. Our setup was:
2 tanks, 3 healers, 3 ranged dps, and 2 melee dps.
We had no knockback effects and kept running into situations where we'd have 4 people with the fallen champion debuff up and heals couldn't keep up. I was playing as a Disc priest and noticed that healing was super easy until we got to the third fallen champion debuff, so I suggested we switch me to dps.
I came on my mutilate rogue, and brought an extra 5200 dps to the party. We downed him the first time. That extra 5200 dps meant that Deathbringer Saurfang only put up 2 debuffs the whole fight, instead of wiping us at 4 debuffs. One of our 2 healers died to a debuff at about 20%, and the 2nd healer solo healed the rest of the fight.
The moral of the story is that for this fight, more dps and less healing is better.
We completed this last night with: 2 tanks, 6 DPS (3 melee/3 ranged), and 2 healers. One of our healers died at 30%ish left in the encounter.
The average DPS put out was 5k, and I was pushing 7k on my rogue.
We had a few hiccups through the first few attempts. Shamans putting earthbind totems too close (getting the melee destroyed by a rooted blood beast), tanks (or melee) tossing an ill timed AoE effect, people "tanking" the bloodbeasts instead of kiting them. All in all, it is pretty easy to mess the fight up, but once you get it, I think it is an easy fight all around.
We finally downed him last night.
Tanks: 2 pallies
DPS: Mage, Mage, Enh Shaman, Ele Shaman, Warlock, Ret Paladin
Heals: Druid, Holy Priest
Our strategy changed to this:
Since we didn't have a holy paladin with RF, we stuck both healers at range along with mages for a total of 4 ranged. The warlock and elemental shaman were clustered ontop of the melee to avoid blood novas and to give more room to kite.
We blew bloodlust at the beginning to get a head start on the fight. Both mages were running slow+arcane builds and were in charge of kiting the adds as best they could.
First few times we wiped, it was due to the kiters not kiting properly. About 3 tries in, they started to get it down and we got him to 45% with no mark but ended up wiping anyways due to one of the kiters getting eaten by a beast.
Next attempt, we got him to 28% with no mark cast. He ended up marking one of the mages who promptly died - we switched the elemental shaman out to DPS the adds and the ret paladin helped with some stuns.
Got him down but it was hectic at the end. It'd be much easier if we had a holy paladin/disc priest healing combo + a hunter for freezing trap on one of the adds.
One way to simplify 10 man version is to have ranged DPS only kite and kill one of the two adds while melee stun locks and kills the other. This will generally increase overall DPS time since both adds will die much faster than they would otherwise. The general problem with kiting is that while you are running, you aren't DPSing fully. So even if you're an 7k dps caster, you're not able to do that if you have to stop casting and run. If the mob dies before it ever gets to you, you don't have to run. Split your DPS and burn down both adds significantly faster and you get more time on the boss.
Tanks can help with the stuns on the melee target by setting up appropriate macros like (where "Joedpsassist" is the melee DPS you want to stun the target of):
/cast [@Joedpsassist-target,harm] [harm] Hammer of Justice
/cast [@Joedpsassist-target,harm] [harm] Concussion Blow
Alright, my turn to contribute, yay!
My guild has been unable to down saurfang on 25 man. We have downed him successfully in all of our 10 man groups, and for that reason, I believe our problem lies with the add control. Our strategy is to use 2 hunters laying frost traps and MDing to our boomkin or ele shaman (for their knockback). We also have 2-3 rogues ToTing on the boomkin/shaman. I (a mage) usually switch to my frost spec for this encounter to facilitate kiting when adds are off of frost traps, plus, my pet frost nova is spectacular. All ranged burn the adds, then switch to boss.
This strategy always works very well until around 15%. At this time, saurfang is in his light enrage, and for some reason, the adds get out of control. Is there something wrong with our strategy? Or is the problem more likely that our ranged are for some reason losing focus and not doing their jobs?
How long does it take you to kill all 5 of the adds each time? If you're killing them like 5 seconds before the next wave spawns, then your technique is fundamentally flawed and you have little margin for error before you start falling behind. If you're killing them in 10-15 seconds and DPSing the boss for the remaining 25-30 seconds before the next wave spawns, you're doing it right. What kind of raid comp are you running with and how much raid DPS is being done? If your strategy is sound, none of your kiters actually need to kite, because everything is dead before they get to them. DPS that is running away like a little girl (in a red hood) isn't doing their full DPS. I suspect that you likely need to use a tactic similar to my 25 man because it sounds more like you aren't killing the adds efficiently enough to begin with that any error causes you to fall behind. See my long post on page 6 of this topic. I primarily am commenting on how to reduce the amount of Blood Power gained from Blood Nova but do mention several other aspects of our srategy. Like ranged has assigned targets in pairs and two of them can kill the add before it ever gets to the person with agro. Melee stun locks and kills two of the adds. I'm one of the "kiters" in the video I have and never move the entire fight and never once got hit by a Blood Beast.
Originally Posted by Jadage
Last edited by Quinafoi; 12-21-2009 at 12:57 PM.
Okay, after some more research, I have decided to convince the rest of our officers to try your guild's strategy. One main question some of them have raised is how can you guarantee that the adds being killed by the melee are stunlocked throughout the duration of them being alive? I still think your strategy will work, I just have to convince the rest of the guild of that within the next twenty minutes.
Our raid composition is generally 5 healers(paladin, shaman, priest, 2 druids), 2 tanks(druid, paladin), 10 melee dps(3 rogues, 2 warriors, druid, paladin, 3 DKs) and 8 ranged(2 mages, 2 hunters, boomkin, 2 warlocks, shaman).
We downed him tonight after about 5 tries. Big difference with having 2 tanks as opposed to one.
First time we did it we got 500K health further than we had before, before I (hunter) was taken out by the first mark. Swapped our priests (one was healing one was shadowdpsing, they swapped roles) and got him to ~30%, killed one tank when he hit Frenzy and we qiped shortly after that.
Did that again, wiped from the second mark going up just after Frenzy.
Fourth time, got him to 21% before mark wiped us again.
Fifth time we downed him, just before the third mark went off (120k-0 in about a third of a second o.O). Got the achievement
Never hit Misdirection once the entire fight. Oops.
Pally and DK tank, DK DPS, Mage, Warlock, Shadow Priest, Hunter (me), Boomkin, Holy Priest, Shaman Healer
Hit heroism just before the Frenzy.
Have at least one of the two warlocks spec into Shadowfury. Both would be preferable but only really need one. They always have to stun first. The initial three seconds gives people time to pick up their targets. 3 seconds is a full spell cast for the ranged people which will generally be able to pull agro off of any incidental AoE like a pally consecrate. With that many rogues, warriors, druids, and paladins in melee, I think you have enough stuns to go around. Melee only kills two of the targets so put 5 on each. If they average 5k DPS each of them will be killed in roughly 4 seconds, there is so much damage going into them that even if they get an attack off it's not the end of the world, one blood power won't make or break the fight.
Originally Posted by Jadage
Have your hunters kiting out to the both the extreme left and extreme right. Though generally their DPS isn't as effective as the rest of the ranged they do make good kiters, especially since they have distracting short and if they lost agro could regain it.
On the add that spawns behind the tanks, have both the Moonkin and Elemental shaman pick that up, if either gets it, either has a knock back and the mob will generally be killed before it gets to them anyway. Since you don't have a lot of extra shaman running around, your second elemental will probably be in the melee with Earthbind totem to slow the adds right from the start before they get out to the frost trap or out to the druid and shaman that would need to knock them back.
At ranged you would have 2 hunters, 4 of your 5 healers, the moonkin and 1 elemental shaman, and the other two ranged DPS with the highest threat generation whether they be warlocks or mages.
Your priest healer should be discipline for this fight. They basically spend their time keeping bubbles on everyone not in melee (since they are the targets on Blood Nova), anyone with Boiling Blood debuff, or anyone with the Mark of the Fallen Champion debuff. The discipline priest would stand in melee. Bubbling does generate threat, though significantly less in general than a holy priest would with actual healing.
By the braziers healing I'd have the restoration shaman bouncing chain heals off the tanks to heal the melee and one of the two restoration druids. Standing out between one of the hunter spots and one of the ranged spots I'd have the other restoration druid and holy paladin and the holy paladin should be healing with righteous fury. If you are allowing the first one or two people marked to die, the pally healer should be using Beason on the first person marked you want to keep alive.
*edit* Sent you a private message with some more details along with a picture of the actual positioning. Hope that helps.
Last edited by Quinafoi; 12-21-2009 at 09:28 PM.
Does Blood Nova generate Blood Power ONLY if it splashes onto someone else?
What's the consensus for 10 man.. let the marked people die?
I have downed him now twice in 25man:
First time we had 2 tanks, 6 healers (2 for tanks, 1 for raid and 3 for marks), warlock to stun adds when they spawn and 2 hunters to lay frost traps and we popped hero at 30%. This tactic usually failed if we didn't get boss down to 50-60% when the first mark appeared and after that we managed to wipe few times.
Second time we had 2 tanks, 4 healers, warlock for stuns, 2 hunters for frost traps, we popped hero at 20% and we agreed to let 3 first persons with marks to die and outdps the heal if the marked person wasn't a tank. Worked like a charm and oneshotted the boss with ease after changing to this tactic. Don't remember how many marks we got, but we got the achievement. So if you are struggling with this encounter and have 2 healers with well geared (prob t8.25+ is enough) dps offspec, then give it a try.
Let em die
Guild Downed Saurfang and got "Ive gone and Made a Mess" on our first Saurfang kill. After browsing Tankspot and all my other start sites We couldn't find out what to do about the marks going out so fast and people dying. So heres what we learned.
1. Healadins with Righteous Fury + MD from Hunters + Hurricane from a Boomkin to get all 5 adds moving through the hunter Traps is Golden.
2. All Melee stops ANY AoE attack 3-5 Seconds before Adds spawn. No consecrate or DnD or Pestilence, EVAR!
3. Mark of the Fallen on a DPS? Let em die. Mark of the Fallen (2nd time) on a DPS.. Let em Die... after that start keeping people alive.
Why do you let them die? Saurfang's blood point starts to rise VERY fast when a Marked player is kept alive due to the fact that any dmg done to the Marked player gives him Blood Points. First Mark goes out at like 60 - 65% life on Saurfang. If you let them die he will be at like 65ish %. Next Mark if adds are dealt with will be at like 33% ish. putting him up to like 40% Any marks after that must be kept alive due to him entering Frenzy and you DO NOT want him getting life back AFTER Frenzy has started. Once the adds come out at around 31% you pop BL and Burn them and hit Saurfang Hard. Any Marks of the Fallen after that must be kept up. DPS him down and deal with the Adda and its GG.
2 Tanks, 4 Healers, 19 DPS was the raid Make up. (2 Hunters for MD and Traps, 1 Boomkin for Hurricane and Typhoon, 1 Healadin w/ RF on)
Downed him 2 weeks in a row now.
Letting the two first marks die is deffently the way to go on 25 man.
Originally Posted by Olat
If you use 6 healers, then you can afford to loose one aswell.
So, if none but the tanks get the mark, just let them die, but make sure they die fast, otherwise he will still gain some BP from the mark which should be avoided.
Using a deep frost mage with blizzard to hold them in place is a really nice way to deal with the adds aswell.
Another thing that helps a lot is having 1 or 2 disc priests in the raid casting PW:S on the ones with blood boil, since the shield will absorb the dmg and stop Saurfang from gaining BP. this should be prefered to be casted on melees, so they can stick around and keep dpsing.
The comment about the melee is irrelevant. A discipline priest should always shield people with Boiling Blood regardless of where they are because it's predictable damage that can be avoided. Melee also would never run out, Boiling Blood isn't an AoE or anything, it's a 21 second DoT. Blood Nova is the AoE, and that is cast on ranged only, provided you have enough targets at range (similar to Shadow Crash on the General in Ulduar). Melee should never be hit by a Blood Nova unless someone in melee is standing too far away from the boss (sometimes happens when a healer stands with melee but isn't tight enough in the group), or you don't have enough targets alive at range. A displine priest should shield the following priorities...
Originally Posted by Tyler
1. Boiling Blood targets.
2. Mark of the Fallen Champion targets.
3. Active tank.
4. Inactive tank.
5. Ranged dps (potential targets of Blood Nova)
Melee DPS should not be shielded unless they have a debuff.
Also, videos still show the graphic effect of blood power being transfered to the boss even on fully absorbed damage of Boiling Blood. This wouldn't mean you shouldn't shield the target though, damage that can be avoided should always be avoided regardless. This may however just be a graphical glitch, it is difficult to determine what causes blood power gains since the combat logs don't show it (least not currently).
Last edited by Quinafoi; 12-23-2009 at 09:10 AM.
You can completely trivialize this fight even moreso than the "let them die" mechanic. Basically, soulstone paladins and have them DI the mark victim, then pop back up. As long as the DI'd person isn't stupid and doesn't click it off they won't take any damage for 3 minutes and Saurfang won't heal. Don't use this as a crutch, though. It'll inevitably be nerfed.
Final warning, DI'd people may or may not be eligible for loot, so you may want to click it off as the boss is dying.
After finally getting Saurfang down last week on 25 after a lot of wiping the previous week, this week we has a rushed run through icecrown with who we could get on, and we one shot through the lot including this and got the gone and made a mess achievement. Go figure
Two weeks not seeing my pally tier token though dammit
I doubt it will be nerfed, and the out of combat thing is why. If the boss dies while someone is DI'd it's as if they were not there at all. It's important to make sure people know to click it off a few seconds before the boss dies (and if you can help it, BOP them as it's being clicked off).
Originally Posted by Vaelia
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