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Thread: Are the T10 set bonuses worth it?

  1. #41
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    After sleeping on this and thinking about it some more, I realize I was getting a little entrenched in my argument. Actually you guys made some good points. I guess the bottom line is we will need to see what else drops in IC and what the encounters will be like near the end. Peace

  2. #42
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    MMO champ has about 95% of the loot tables up now.

  3. #43
    I figure I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

    As I main tank for my guild, I've planned a bit head.

    Assuming hardmodes will still take a while to get here, I'm getting the T10 Head+Shoulders for the set bonus and buy the offset gloves and chest. I'm farming Frost badges on 3 alts so I shouldn't have a problem crafting the pants.

    But I do agree that the 4 set might prove essencial in upcoming encounters. With the extra badges from running ICC10 and 25, I plan on buying the 4 set and use it when the hardmodes arrive. The 4 set scaling is too powerfull to be left out.

    In the meantime, I'll use the offset pieces and try to achieve a good balance of armor, stamina and threat. When the time comes for hardmodes, I'll have the 4 set T10 for them.

    The current normal encounters don't need an extra cooldown.

  4. #44
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    The concern I still have with this is the encounters and badge incomes for expensive pieces of gear.

    4pc Tier 8 wasn't great for warriors because it made their average DTPS lower than the equivalent offset pieces. It was great for warriors because it let them use shield block as an additional cooldown, enabling them to tank bosses like mimiron or IC hard much more easily.

    As far as I know, we haven't even seen the Lich King fight in normal yet, nor have we seen hard modes for the key bosses (Putriside/Lanathel/Sindragosa and ofc Lich King hard). Given that they have put a fairly comparable survivability cooldown on every classes tank set, isn't it almost inevitable that they've factored this into the encounter design?


    So maybe we need to consider badge incomes, and how long it will take to gather the emblems of frost to get all this stuff.
    Per week:
    5 - Weekly Raid Quest
    14 - Daily Random Dungeons (assuming you manage this every day)
    8 - 10 man, 4 bosses. Goes up to 7, 9 and then 12 bosses.
    8 - 25 man, 4 bosses.

    There's also an initial 6 from the 5 man introduction quest line.

    Attached is a very simple spreadsheet that shows that income over a 16 week period, assuming that a) they open the 2nd and 3rd gates after 3 weeks (which might be conservative) and that you farm both 10 and 25 man instances, do all your dailies and weeklies. It also assumes only 2 badges for all bosses (possible some could drop more?) and that you kill all bosses the week they are available (which given the limited attempts might not be a fair assumption). So use whatever pinch of salt you like with the numbers, I'd say that the net result is probably high sided for most average people - chances are you'll miss a few dailies or the odd raid in this period - but that gates might open a bit quicker which would offset that.

    Summary Dates (see file for more detail):
    Week 4 146 badges total
    Week 8 342
    Week 12 586
    Week 16 854

    Tier loot costs:
    Head / Chest / Legs = 95 each
    Shoulders / Gloves = 60 each

    Non-tier costs:
    Chest = 95
    Gloves / Belt / Trinket = 60
    Cloak = 50
    Primordial Saronie = 23

    The cheapest 4pc would be 310 badges. You are into week 8 before you can afford that. That's end of January and not very long before the frost gate opens. Once that gate is open, we'll start getting real info on the Arthas fight - and some time after that, info about the hard modes. If at week 10, you have spent your 400 odd badges entirely on non-tier loot, it would take you a full month to farm the badges for the 4 pc bonus (ignoring any tokens needed for upgrades).

    No conclusions at this point, although the idea of hedging bets for 2 pieces (shoulders + helm), which reduces the risk of being stuck needing a set bonus and not having it, looks quite attractive.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by swelt; 12-14-2009 at 04:39 AM. Reason: tweakin'

  5. #45
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    Yeah, considering by week 8 you can afford Belt + Gloves + Cloak + Helm + Shoulders (325 badges out of 342), that seems like an OK approach to me really.

    Also, this assumes that the badge gain is constant. I could see the potential for the end-wing bosses potentially dropping 3 instead of 2 badges, but I guess we'll see.

    (On a side note: my main complaint at the moment is how reliant badge income is on non-raiding activities, and even 10-man. I mean... the fact that 10-man gives the same badges as 25-man is broken, IMO... and the fact that, even now, you get more from daily + weekly quests than actual raiding is a bit fail.)
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  6. #46
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    Agree. I think it sucks that you are effectively forced to farm both 10 and 25 man to support that badge income - doesn't that go completely against what they've said in the past? The income from raids vs daily random is also pretty weak. 3 or even 4 badges per 25 man boss would seem entirely reasonable to me.

    One other thing to factor: primordial saronite and Shadowmourne. In previous tiers, the orbs have been used for craftables. Now there are horny dps (and dk tanks) out there who want lots of the stuff. That will make crafting things like the plate legs a tricky topic for guilds. Also means that they'd appreciate 'spare badges' being converted to saronite.

  7. #47
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    As much as i like the set bonuses, the reality is that as a 10 man raider i'm not going to see any of the tier tokens for a fair while, and to get them I will already need good gear anyway. This means i'm unlikely to "save" for the tier pieces but ensure i have a 1-item badge buffer when the time comes to kill the badge bosses (10m HMs).

    Of course, the decision of my first item is made easier by having a 219 cloak and the badge cloak being awesome. I also got the legs from saurfang on our first clear which means i've replaced my only fairly gimped tier slot, so there's no need to rush for the tier legs straight away.
    Xanth <Valkyria>

  8. #48
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    I know that right now, the system for getting badges seems a little weird, but just keep in mind that as time goes on, and people start full clearing 10 and 25 IC, the majority of badges will come from the raid zone. We just started IC, and we are going to be doing IC for a quite a while.
    Emblems of frost will be precious for the first 2 months or so, and then after that, most of us will be rolling around in them, selling them off as primordial saronite. Don't forget that if you plan on getting the tier pieces, you are only paying once.
    There are a lot of great things to get with the emblems right now, but we will have so much time to get it all, not worth stressing about it imo.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torebore View Post
    I know that right now, the system for getting badges seems a little weird, but just keep in mind that as time goes on, and people start full clearing 10 and 25 IC, the majority of badges will come from the raid zone. We just started IC, and we are going to be doing IC for a quite a while.
    Emblems of frost will be precious for the first 2 months or so, and then after that, most of us will be rolling around in them, selling them off as primordial saronite. Don't forget that if you plan on getting the tier pieces, you are only paying once.
    There are a lot of great things to get with the emblems right now, but we will have so much time to get it all, not worth stressing about it imo.
    The stress comes from wanting to optimize our gear so we have the best possible as each wave hits. I want to make sure my gear is baller for when heroic modes come out.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post

    So basically you lose 77 defense, 3 dodge, and some threat for a gain of over 3,000 armor and 54 stam and also gain 132 parry.
    Just curious but was this conclusion from your original post done with Leggaurds of Lost Hope or Pillars of Might?

    Regardless you lose 3 dodge which is nothing and gain 132 parry = More Avoidance.

    More Stamina (Magic Fights) and More Armor (Physical Fights) = More overall survivability.

    By these numbers the off pieces win hands down over the tier in every situation, wtf batman? So your only real gain with the Tier is the set bonus's. Which the 2 piece though nice, more threat (which we don't really need) is hardly a reason to drop overall survivability and avoidance. The 4 pc needs could be useful in later fights, but remember blizzard is not going to design encounters (hard or normal) around having a set bonus.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Agree. I think it sucks that you are effectively forced to farm both 10 and 25 man to support that badge income - doesn't that go completely against what they've said in the past?
    It sorta kinda does. That said, Blizzard has also been saying the whole time that they want to look into WHO's actually running 10mans and 25mans (i.e. how much double-dipping are the 25man raid guilds doing). I suspect they finally found their answer (virtually all 25mans are double-dipping and there aren't that many 10man only guilds out there) and lowered the emblem count on 25man to accommodate that behavior AND to slow progression in yet another way (which seems likely given all the gates, limited attempts, etc.).

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    Just curious but was this conclusion from your original post done with Leggaurds of Lost Hope or Pillars of Might?

    Regardless you lose 3 dodge which is nothing and gain 132 parry = More Avoidance.

    More Stamina (Magic Fights) and More Armor (Physical Fights) = More overall survivability.

    By these numbers the off pieces win hands down over the tier in every situation, wtf batman? So your only real gain with the Tier is the set bonus's. Which the 2 piece though nice, more threat (which we don't really need) is hardly a reason to drop overall survivability and avoidance. The 4 pc needs could be useful in later fights, but remember blizzard is not going to design encounters (hard or normal) around having a set bonus.
    Pillars of might.

    Also remember you lose 77 defense, so it's actually a little less avoidance to go with the offset, I think is what Kojiyama was coming out with.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  13. #53
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    Don't have the save on this computer, but going from my memory it was a pretty solid selection of the other generally available survival items from the first half of the instance + TotC. Badge cloak and belt, crafted boots, ICC-25 armor neck, ICC-10 armor bracers, ICC-10 trinket+Glyph of Indom, ICC-25 trash gun, Anub-10H weapon, Twins-10H ring+ICC-25 ring, and TotC-25H shield. Could be remembering 1-2 things wrong though, but you get the idea.
    Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that ICC-10 tnkt + Glyph of Indom is better than the ICC-10 trnkt + Corroded Skeleton Key?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grymauch View Post
    Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that ICC-10 tnkt + Glyph of Indom is better than the ICC-10 trnkt + Corroded Skeleton Key?
    Well the Corroded Skeleton Key costs more badges, what we're doing here is a teir set analysis of watch frost emblem gear provides the best upgrades. I personally would probably use ICC10 + Jug's Vitality258.

    As far as stat upgrades go, if you have glyph of indom + level trinkets, corroded skeleton key is actually not that big of an upgrade in comparison, however this is a suppositioned on your current gear levels. If say you had really bad luck with trinkets and you're still using like the black heart and glyph of indom, but you have all like 258 gear, then yes, corroded skeleton key would probably be an upgrade...

    Come to think of it we may want to add that in our decision calculus. I just personally didn't since I have 2x Jug's Vit, Glyph of Indom and am trying for the ICC-10 trinket, so it never really crossed my mind.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Pillars of might.

    Also remember you lose 77 defense, so it's actually a little less avoidance to go with the offset, I think is what Kojiyama was coming out with.
    77 rating = 1.88% avoidance according to Calculator (that's before diminishing returns) so that may not be a lot.

    Unless you mean skill (which I doubt)
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  16. #56
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    Well the Corroded Skeleton Key costs more badges, what we're doing here is a teir set analysis of watch frost emblem gear provides the best upgrades. I personally would probably use ICC10 + Jug's Vitality258.
    I totally understand what you're saying, I guess I was coming at it from the perspective of a 'hardcore' 10m raider with neither JuggVit trnkt. Seems like there have been several other 10m raiders posting so maybe there should be a separate 10m-only version of this thread or perhaps there could be a 10m portion added to this thread.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grymauch View Post
    I totally understand what you're saying, I guess I was coming at it from the perspective of a 'hardcore' 10m raider with neither JuggVit trnkt. Seems like there have been several other 10m raiders posting so maybe there should be a separate 10m-only version of this thread or perhaps there could be a 10m portion added to this thread.
    Ya, this thread wasn't very 10 man focused to begin with, but seeing as how the tier gear and the badge gear cost the same number of emblems, but the frost gear gives you 264 ilevel gear and the tier base for 10 man is 251, I'd say that the badge gear hands down will give you the better options. Whether or not you get the trinket too or first or what order you get things in is entirely dependent upon your current gear levels.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  18. #58
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    Really great work guys, some interesting reading and some much needed planning out done on part of the tier set/offset items. Hi as well Jayde

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Well the Corroded Skeleton Key costs more badges, what we're doing here is a teir set analysis of watch frost emblem gear provides the best upgrades. I personally would probably use ICC10 + Jug's Vitality258.

    As far as stat upgrades go, if you have glyph of indom + level trinkets, corroded skeleton key is actually not that big of an upgrade in comparison, however this is a suppositioned on your current gear levels. If say you had really bad luck with trinkets and you're still using like the black heart and glyph of indom, but you have all like 258 gear, then yes, corroded skeleton key would probably be an upgrade...

    Come to think of it we may want to add that in our decision calculus. I just personally didn't since I have 2x Jug's Vit, Glyph of Indom and am trying for the ICC-10 trinket, so it never really crossed my mind.
    Well, it's not as if Glyph of Indom is hard to get now that Emblems of Triumph fall off trees and land in your lap for taking a few steps in Dalaran.

    Personally, I don't like the Skeleton Key at all. I think it's pretty overpriced for its value and given the many trinkets available I really wouldn't waste the Emblems on it personally. (I have the 258 Satrina's as well, but even if I didn't I'm not sure I would get the Skeleton Key.)

    The fact is that, on average, even The Black Heart has roughly the same EH as the Skeleton Key. Even the 245 Satrina's is probably on a similar level as the Skeleton Key, not to mention that there are other Stamina trinkets in ICC such as Sindragosa's Fang with the same Stamina as the Skeleton Key. There is also the Corpse Tongue Coin, which is quite an interesting trinket as well. And if you don't need the raw EH, I find that Glyph of Indom is better for increasing your overall survivability.

    Additionally, even if you do need raw EH, the upgrade from the 10-man T9 gloves to the Gauntlets of the Kraken, for instance, is almost double what you would get going from the Royal Seal of King Llane to the Skeleton Key.

    Given the limited resource of Emblems of Frost, I would personally just suck it up with an older trinket rather than drop a ton of badges on something of questionable value.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 12-16-2009 at 04:04 AM.
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  20. #60
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    Hmm... this has been good to look at. I was trying to figure out what to spend my badges on first, especially since December's not a great time for raiding for me, so I'm looking realistically at whatever I can get from dailies and maybe one or two bosses down. Good to know that saving for the tier pieces isn't terribly vital, especially since that extra armor on the offset pieces is pretty darn attractive!
    I'm thinking I'll go with my initial gut feeling now and upgrade my cloak first, to finally replace that blasted Shadow of the Ghoul from Naxx... the badge cloak is exactly the same, but better in every way.
    Thanks for looking into this, all!

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