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Thread: Are the T10 set bonuses worth it?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Well said Kojiyama. I look forward to your calculations. This was the kind of response and discussion I was really hoping for.

    Just 1 question, currently you say that the offset pieces give 3236.5 DTPS and the set without the cooldown is 3242.5 DTPS? It's only a 6 DTPS difference?
    Sorry, probably wasn't clear.

    Offset: 3236.5 DTPS
    T10: 3242.5 DTPS
    T10+Bloodrage: 3076.5 DTPS

    However, the other thing I'd note is that since the value is absorb and because it scales with health it will be interesting to see where it ends up.

    For instance, for farming old content it scales quite well with new gear--not only does it scale with your HP, but it scales with avoidance since obviously avoided hits will not consume the absorb. In relative terms, as your DTPS decreases the power of the set bonus increases.

    However, since the damage scaling of the heroic versions (or later bosses) is not well-known yet, it could be that the incoming melee DTPS scales up as such that the armor of the offset pieces can outweigh the absorb.

    It's really hard to say without knowing the actual nature of the harder fights yet. I'll try to run some more comprehensive numbers later tonight.
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  2. #22
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    No, you were clear, I was just surprised that the damage taken per second between the T10 without using blood rage and the offset was only 6 DTPS. I figured 3k armor would change it a bit more than that.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    No, you were clear, I was just surprised that the damage taken per second between the T10 without using blood rage and the offset was only 6 DTPS. I figured 3k armor would change it a bit more than that.
    Well, the full T10 set has a bit more avoidance.

    Personally, though, the thing is that you have more health with the offset piece and you take less damage from each swing. Although I may disagree with stacking Stamina at the expense of avoidance in many cases, if you have two sets which have nearly identical DTPS I would typically favor the one with more consistantly low top-end damage and Stamina, since that is just going to be the lowest chance of dying.

    The burst time factor of the off-set set is a fair bit better than the full T10 set due to this fact.
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  4. #24
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    Really quick, just on my whole point of having control:

    This is all assuming that there will be less spiky damage in Icecrown. If the damage is going to be similar to ToGC (the beasts or anub), then I would say EH would be better, and therefore having a flat reduction to all hits might be the way to go. However from what I have seen so far, the damage really has been more regulated. There have not been any huge, "I was at full now I'm dead, wtf!" type of moments. Right now, I feel that an additional survival cooldown is just more beneficial.

    Already I can see examples where I could use it. I missed my interrupt in the rotation on Deathwhisper? Pop it. Disarm is on cooldown, and Saurfang is getting kinda big? Pop it. Tank healer died when the boss was at 3%? Pop it.

    Will it suck to not have the most bad ass gear score for a few months? For some yes. Will shamans and hunters curse us for passing on plate and taking their tokens? Maybe. I think getting the tier pieces at this point needs to be viewed as an investment. Right now, you may not see the changes that the non set will give you. But once you get the tokens, and hit that bonus, I think the extra cool down could really help. Especially when we get down the line and start doing some hardmodes.

    I know doing the math on this stuff is important, and I do appreciate it. Don't bank on the math too much though. As long as the healers can keep you up without having to spam big heals on you, I feel that a defensive cooldown that you are in control of is much more valuable.
    Last edited by Torebore; 12-11-2009 at 05:38 AM.

  5. #25
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    I have to say that your conclusion seems a bit backwards to me, actually.

    If damage is more regulated, there is less need for the 'omgwtf pop cooldowns or get one-shot' moments. In that case, smoothing out and regulating the damage to make it easily healable seems like the better course of action.

    Good example, Marrowgar's Saber Lash. A cooldown isn't going to help you in most cases. The only time when it would matter is if your healers really really fell asleep/stopped healing you. You need consistant healing, so it seems best to try to minimize how much consistant healing you need by having high amounts of armor.

    Cooldowns were so important because of the burst. On Heroic Beasts you can eat 50-55k damage in one second without cooldowns. With those cases mostly removed, there is less of a need for them.

    Math is important because the game operates based on math. Averages aren't always right, of course, but much of this is being framed by having tanked for a long time as well. I don't like relying on cooldowns too much because when they aren't up for whatever reason, you die.
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  6. #26
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    A better analysis using full gear sets. I put together a total "optimal survival" (ish) set using early (first 2 wings max) known 25-N, 10-N, crafted, and badge items--as well as TotC items barring Anub-25H.

    I subbed out the 5 slots based on what was discussed previously.

    T10 264 Set
    Health: 52718
    Guaranteed Reduction: 76.80%
    Avoidance: 50.41% (+Block 68.01%)
    Total Mitigation: 91.44%
    Attacker Speed: 2.50s
    Damage Taken: 2999.5 DPS
    Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 16248
    Total Threat/sec: 9146.2
    Burst Time: 26.12

    Full Offset
    Health: 53278
    Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
    Avoidance: 47.71% (+Block 65.63%)
    Total Mitigation: 91.44%
    Damage Taken: 2998.9 DPS
    Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15420
    Total Threat/sec: 8889.0
    Burst Time: 26.53

    T10 Helm/Shoulders + Offset Chest/Gloves/Legs
    Health: 53008
    Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
    Avoidance: 48.11% (+Block 65.71%)
    Total Mitigation: 91.50%
    Damage Taken: 2975.6 DPS
    Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15424
    Total Threat/sec: 9087.0
    Burst Time: 26.79

    T10 Helm/Chest + Offset Gloves/Shoulders/Legs
    Health: 53138
    Guaranteed Reduction: 77.52%
    Avoidance: 49.43% (+Block 66.79%)
    Total Mitigation: 91.55%
    Damage Taken: 2959.1 DPS
    Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15746
    Total Threat/sec: 8746.6
    Burst Time: 27.57

    ...so, you can draw your own conclusions, really. Helm is the strongest piece compared to known options, so I'd always get that first. Additionally, until you are in a position to get the 4 264 tokens (which will probably take some time, realistically), the other off-set pieces (Waist, Gloves, Cloak) simply are a much better use of badges than the 3rd and 4th T10 pieces, regardless of your plan. Unless you are going to somehow prio tokens to Warriors (which I wouldn't recommend in this case) it will be a while before this is an issue at all.

    To illustrate this, let's consider a case where you bought the Helm, Shoulders, Chest and Gloves and used the Pillars of Might (because the Legs can be crafted, they wouldn't cost badges, in theory!) yet you only had 1 25-man token.

    264 Helm + 251 Chest/Gloves/Shoulders + Pillars of Might
    Health: 51948
    Guaranteed Reduction: 77.14%
    Avoidance: 48.96% (+Block 66.20%)
    Total Mitigation: 91.29%
    Damage Taken: 3050.1 DPS
    Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 16008
    Total Threat/sec: 8753.4
    Burst Time: 23.91

    ...as you can see, this set is not very great. You will be taking 600 more damage per swing, have 1.4k less health, have 10-15% worse burst time survival, and poor TPS compared to a full offset or a T10 264 Helm + Offset gear approach. This also requires spending 60 additional badges to get the shoulders instead of a 'free' off-set drop, which means you would also have to initially skip the Cloak or Waist, which are considerable upgrades over other available slots.

    To me, this is a poor approach for progression raiding.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 12-11-2009 at 06:22 AM.
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  7. #27
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    Can you redo the last calculation except with T10 Shoulder/Helm and badge chest?
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Can you redo the last calculation except with T10 Shoulder/Helm and badge chest?
    Added some additional stuff, and notes about progression/251 items.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torebore View Post
    Really quick, just on my whole point of having control:

    This is all assuming that there will be less spiky damage in Icecrown. If the damage is going to be similar to ToGC (the beasts or anub), then I would say EH would be better, and therefore having a flat reduction to all hits might be the way to go. However from what I have seen so far, the damage really has been more regulated. There have not been any huge, "I was at full now I'm dead, wtf!" type of moments. Right now, I feel that an additional survival cooldown is just more beneficial.

    Already I can see examples where I could use it. I missed my interrupt in the rotation on Deathwhisper? Pop it. Disarm is on cooldown, and Saurfang is getting kinda big? Pop it. Tank healer died when the boss was at 3%? Pop it.

    Will it suck to not have the most bad ass gear score for a few months? For some yes. Will shamans and hunters curse us for passing on plate and taking their tokens? Maybe. I think getting the tier pieces at this point needs to be viewed as an investment. Right now, you may not see the changes that the non set will give you. But once you get the tokens, and hit that bonus, I think the extra cool down could really help. Especially when we get down the line and start doing some hardmodes.

    I know doing the math on this stuff is important, and I do appreciate it. Don't bank on the math too much though. As long as the healers can keep you up without having to spam big heals on you, I feel that a defensive cooldown that you are in control of is much more valuable.
    The problem here is I'm not thinking about current content. As is already proven current content is pretty easy for well geared people. What I'm worried about is having the best edge per week that I go into progression content, and the best set I can get when we start hardmodes.

    Furthermore, I agree with Kajiyama again, that if damage is consistent you want more armor, and the avoidance differences are negligible at the moment. So more health + more armor = win in my book. Especially if it minimizes the need to even use an extra cooldown.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Added some additional stuff, and notes about progression/251 items.

    T10 Helm/Shoulders + Offset Chest/Gloves/Legs
    Health: 53008
    Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
    Avoidance: 48.11% (+Block 65.71%)
    Total Mitigation: 91.50%
    Damage Taken: 2975.6 DPS
    Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15424
    Total Threat/sec: 9087.0
    Burst Time: 26.79

    Imo this looks like the best situation overall to me. Only 4 more DT per Normal Hit, not that much more DTPS than the ideal DTPS set, slightly more mitigation than all offspec, slightly less health but generally good overall, tied for the highest overall reduction, and you get your nasty threat abilities.

    Edit: imo this means get what drops you can, get the offset frost gear first, then go pick up your 2PC T10 if it is needed.
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  11. #31
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    I feel like it would be less of an issue if there were actually 4 pieces that were good. Right now, the Gloves and Legs are both very bad pieces. The shoulders have no advantage over the off-set pieces.

    The chest and helm, especially when upgrades, are pretty nice even without the bonus armor on the chest.

    This is fairly similar to the TotC situation where the Gloves and Shoulders were the only clearly good pieces until the rare case of getting Anub-25H tokens. The helm offered no real advantage to the Helm of Wrath (or was worse) while the Legs and Chest were far inferior to offset pieces.

    For a 4-set to be worthwhile, at least 2-3 of the pieces need to be exceptionally strong. Right now, there is only a single piece which could fit that criteria--the Helm. The craptitude of the gloves and legs cause serious issues with gearing for the 4-set bonus. The fact that the set pieces have almost universally 1 less gem slot than offset pieces doesn't make things any easier.
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  12. #32
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    I personally think that the chest is pretty god awful too. The helm isn't even really that much better, it's just comparable.
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  13. #33
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    What do you mean with Offset-Legs?
    Legguards of Lost Hope or the crafted ones?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by delix View Post
    What do you mean with Offset-Legs?
    Legguards of Lost Hope or the crafted ones?
    I list both in the original post, but in these more recent ones we are talking about "Pillars of Might" the crafted ones.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I list both in the original post, but in these more recent ones we are talking about "Pillars of Might" the crafted ones.
    Yeah, I used Pillar of Might in all the calculations for offset. However, the other options are also pretty good and slighty better better (especially considering they are 'free' for badge competition purposes) than the T10 Legs as well. :P

    (It's also likely to be one of the first 277 items you can get, as it drops from Marrowgar--provided the heroic scaling is fairly similar to the difficulty in normal.)
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  16. #36
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    Kojiyama do you care if I add your post to my OP (and credit you obviously)
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Kojiyama do you care if I add your post to my OP (and credit you obviously)
    Nope, don't mind at all. Feel free.

    With normal grain of salt caveat that inputs will vary based on fights/parameters/damage, of course!
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  18. #38
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    What other gear is being used in the rawr theorycrafting to arrive at these numbers?
    Last edited by mistersix; 12-11-2009 at 03:17 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    What other gear is being used in the rawr theorycrafting to arrive at these numbers?
    Don't have the save on this computer, but going from my memory it was a pretty solid selection of the other generally available survival items from the first half of the instance + TotC. Badge cloak and belt, crafted boots, ICC-25 armor neck, ICC-10 armor bracers, ICC-10 trinket+Glyph of Indom, ICC-25 trash gun, Anub-10H weapon, Twins-10H ring+ICC-25 ring, and TotC-25H shield. Could be remembering 1-2 things wrong though, but you get the idea.

    There aren't actually that many tanking items available, so there aren't a ton of good options in each slot other than the primary set slots.
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  20. #40
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    Thanks!

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