Warrior Shield Enchant - Stam vs Plating

[Punchdrunk]

I was wondering if there was any consensus regarding the EH of enchanting 18 Stam vs Titanium Plating (81 Block Value) for a prot warrior. I am in a relatively new ICC10 group, working on Professor Putricide, and just got neverending winter from the gunship.

To date everything is stam when it can be (gems and enchants), but the 18 stam enchant seems so underwhelming. I am planning to put 18 stam on it, but wondering if there are valid arguments for the increased block value. I am reconsidering based on 3 reasons.

1. I feel like I have sufficient stam for the content we are in, though I admit that there is no such thing as too much.

2. Increased BV should increase my DPS, and a few of our DPS are undergeared.

3. Our OT is DK and for whatever reason he always puts out more threat than I do. This is not a major issue because we are both well ahead of the DPS, but in fights where I am supposed to be the MT, he will inevitably pull the boss off me unless he holds back. This of course isnt really an issue, but it requires him to watch his threat and me to feel insecure. I am putting out more DPS than he does and the healers say I am easier to heal...

Thanks

[Loganisis]

1. Sufficient stamina? Only when mine equals the LK
2. Any increase will be so trivial that would it matter? Really, isn't the answer "DPS, get off your lazy butt and earn some gold for crated gear..."?
3. Vig him. What's your rotation and compartive gear? Don't rely on a shield enchant.

Really - 1 is in jest. But points out the issue. You can never have too much. 18 stam = 248 HP (Kings/Sanc, ICC buff, warrior bonus). What's your damage reduction? Assuming 66%, that's roughly 750 extra damage you can take from physical sources before dying. Just 248 versus magic

18 stamina isn't trivial unless you've never been hit from an overkill <750ish.

You're basically trading 750 EHP against physical attacks for a roughly 20% (whats your block %, 20%ish?) chance to block between 81 (regular block) and ~350 (SB, SM, and crit block - forgetting anything?) incoming physical damage? Even if you were to block, the 18 stamina would give you 2x as much benefit (if I understand the math correctly) than the block enchant.


If you're concerned about threat - do you glyph devastate? That may be a better option if you're really concerned about threat.

[Mend]

1- Unless you are tanking naxx in 264 gear, that's never really an issue. Stamina scales so well with the ICC buff its much better than any other stat other than armour for physical fights.

2- If you put all the boss' you have already cleared on farm content, it wouldn't be an issue. Unless RNG really hates your dpsers.

3- Icy Touch is 30k Threat built into 1 ability and can usually be spammed 4-5 times after death runes, and this is usually the opener for any DK tank, so don't be surprised if he quickly surpasses you. What Loganisis said would be best to do, since it adds a 3% overall damage reduction to the DK.

Best of luck!

[Punchdrunk]

This is pretty much what I expected. There is no such thing as too much stamina, 18 stamina is clearly more EHP than the block would provide, the ICC buff makes this even better, and lock provides relatively trivial threat and DPS.

Thanks for the idea about vigilance, that would help even out our threat and help him regarding damage. I do glyph devastate already, but recently respecced to imp disc and glyphed shield wall/last stand for surviving festergut.

I had the mats waiting, so its going on tonight. Thanks!

[Martie]

Block provides zero EHP.

Regardless, block isn't useless, and I think the 110 or so block value you get is quite close in value to the 248 health.

You're basically trading 750 EHP against physical attacks for a roughly 20% (whats your block %, 20%ish?) chance to block between 81 (regular block) and ~350 (SB, SM, and crit block - forgetting anything?) incoming physical damage? Even if you were to block, the 18 stamina would give you 2x as much benefit (if I understand the math correctly) than the block enchant.

Well, that depends on how many hits you look at. For one blow, the stam is better. For multiple blows, it gets complicated.
Two blocks prevent roughly as much damage as the stamina gives you (EHP doesn't factor into this comparison). If you use shield block, one block does it. If you get a critical block, one block does it.
It's about the same for paladins and warriors too - paladins block more blows, warriors block more per blocked blow.

It's not an easy choice to make, but for me, the fact that their survival potential is about equal makes the plating come out on top - it gives me threat as well.

[Loganisis]

Block is post DR, it's the last calculation. So you're blocking an absolute amount of damage. 81 block value crits (60% with the talent) to 162, and if all glyphs/talents it's multiplied up to 2.3 times, correct? Making the final amount of total damage blocked range from 81 to 81*2*2.3 or ~368 total damage.

When comparing that to stamina and ICC DR, you're looking at being hit for the 368 that would have been blocked, but the stamina is worth ~750 EHP so the amount blocked is a little less than half the EHP the stamina provides against the same physical damage. So even when a block does happen, the small bonus block value of 81 doesn't really benefit the user that much, as the blocked amount of damage ranges from ~13% to ~45% of the EHP offered by the stamina enchant.

Again, I don't understand all the mechanics so if there is something wrong, let me know, but it would seem that over a million hits, assuming a 20% block and a 60% crit block you're looking at:

An "average" block of 298 damage blocked, based entirely on RNG, versus ~750 EHP on *every* swing. It seems like a no brainer, that the stamina/blockvalue trade off is well above 1 sta to 4.5 block value... far far above that.

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

[Martie]

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

You are missing the fact that block's damage comes out of post-everything damage. If you inflate the health into EHP, you should do the same for what you block. Call it EB or something.
(In other words, if you multiply the stamina gains to get EHP, do the same for blocks.)

[Airowird]

Also, block does not come post-everything. It comes before flat damage reductions/increases(see Anub adds).
So 298 / (1.1 * 1.03) = 263 (10% def stance + 3% sanc)
So it's 2.85 EHP per block value. And a million times more if you are on a magical encounter.

[Martie]

Also, block does not come post-everything. It comes before flat damage reductions/increases(see Anub adds).

Correct, I should have said almost everything.

So 298 / (1.1 * 1.03) = 263 (10% def stance + 3% sanc)
So it's 2.85 EHP per block value. And a million times more if you are on a magical encounter.

Huh?

[Airowird]

Sorry, I was thinking haste >_>

Actually redid the numbers and the 298 was wrong from the start though, as it assumes Shield Block while Loganisis does talk about block being RNG (which it never is while SB is up)

If you look at the numbers over a total fight duration:
Normal Block: 81 * 1,3 = 105,3
SB Block: 81 * 2,3 = 186,3

SB uptime is a max of 25%, so no SB for 75%
critical blocks happen 60% of the time, so this is equal to an average of 160% of a normal block.

Average over a fight is 1,6 * (75% * 105,3 + 25% * 186,3) = 210,6 per block pre-reduction.
This comes down to 183,85 less damage taken per block

Only if you use SB as mini-CD, you end up with:
SB blocks = 1,6 * 81 * 2,3 = 298,08 pre-red.
Total damage reduced per hit for SB is then 260 damage,
or roughly an additional ~1% off the hit (on top of the ~10-20% SB is already)

To compare: on a 26K hit, this would be equal to an average of 1345 armor every time Shield Block is up on a 30k armor. (336,25 if averaged out for EHP)
On average it is 1048 armor multiplied by your block fraction (= blocks / (blocks + hits) )
Statwise, you're looking at an equal to 144 or 116 (again, block fraction) stamina resp. (at 9,333 armor per sta)
For a warrior with 40% avoidance and 20% block, the block fraction would be 50%, so worth 58 stamina.

Wow, I think I just jizzed in my plate armor over this. Never actually bothered to do the math before, because block value is generally not a sought-after thing, but this might actually be worth it ...

[Martie]

Never actually bothered to do the math before, because block value is generally a bad thing, but this might actually be worth it ...

Block value isn't a bad thing. In the amounts you usually get, it's not worth the effort, and that's different to it being a bad thing. The plating gives a lot of block value, though.

Expect people to disagree with your assessment, by the way.

I think you forgot to factor in that not all blows get blocked, and I don't know about a warrior's actualy shield block uptime, so that could be different.

[Airowird]

You're right, block value itself is not bad, it's just less useful than everything else.
Also, unlike Paladins, our block chance increase is neither a proc nor has charges.

About block 'uptime':
I did forget the block fraction, fixing it now.
Considering you block around 50% of the time (at 40% avoidances & 20% block three quarter of the time and 40% avoidances & 60% block one quarter), you're looking at an equal of 524 armor, going up with your avoidance and down when the boss hits for more.

[Martie]

... going up with your avoidance and down when the boss hits for more.

Remember, it'll also go up with more armor, has amplified effects when considering other cooldowns, damage shields have some effect as well and it functions really interestingly with the few nonphysical melee attacks in the game.

Like I said before, it gets complicated.

[Desolous]

so many fights in icc have dangerous non-physical components that I'd always go for the stamina.

Threat can be solved with a tighter rotation, vig on the offtank, and tricks + misdirect from the dps.

[Loganisis]

So the end result is if you save SB as a mini CD the 81 block value is > the stamina, but if you don't then the stamina is > 81 block value?

And sorry for the math - Block is the least discussed tanking aspect on here and I was pulling from a couple of different sources and trying to figure it out as I went along.

[gacktt]

I'd rather have 250 max hp with full buffs than a chance to block 100/200 damage every now and then, if I were a paladin then maybe it would be better as paladins are more consistent in blocking.

[Jesauce]

Yeah, you have to think about the scaling factor. The extra block is a static buff, whereas the stamina scales from talents, raid buffs, and the ICC buff. So for ICC I'd wholeheartedly recommend the Stam enchant. Well, actually even for general tanking I'd recommend the stam enchant.

And I play a paladin, I really dgaf about block except when I'm doing heroic Anub.

[ststephen]

I would just add to the discussion that Blizz has dropped BR from all the top end gear and IMHO the lack of BR devalues BV except in very specific circumstances. If you get a shield specifically for trash/heroics its a decent threat/dps increase but I wouldn't use it until you have an EH shield with stam on it.

[Aggathon]

What warrior has 20% block in ICC? I have ~ 40% avoidance (miss/dodge/parry) and ~ 13% block (I guess it would be 16% if I spec'd 5/5 SS instead of 2/5). Based on this numbers you'd only block about 21% of the hits that connect. Shield Block's uptime also isn't 50% if you use it on cooldown, it's closer to 33% (up for 10 seconds every 30). Granted your math when it is up is correct (since it ceases to be RNG) but I think you're over valuing it some.

[Punchdrunk]

Quite an interesting thread. Thought I would give real numbers:

I am a moderately geared warrior, right at 5K GS, which is I think about standard for groups starting ICC. I have 28% Dodge, 20% Parry and 16% block. Not sure about miss (561 defense), or block value based on armory stats. But you have to remember that Chill of the Throne cuts that dodge down to 8%. Not sure if those numbers help.

I have gone with the stamina because stam always helps, even in magic fights. Plus for me threat is only an issue relative to the OT, which he and I can easily adapt to. Its not an issue relative to any of the DPS.