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Thread: 3.2 DW Frost / Unholy DPS

  1. #1

    3.2 DW Frost / Unholy DPS

    8.12 edit: I've decided to keep my old 15/53/3 spec for to primary reasons. 1) The rotation is extremely simple and flexible to KM/Rime procs. 2) It's 4k single target DPS unbuffed which may not scale as good as some other options, but still quite ok. 3) It's the best AOE spec i can come up with so far which can kick in some nice numbers very fast (think Onyxia whelps here). 4) It's not dependant on specific gearsets so delivers a good performance pre T9 2set bonus. I will consider trying out once 3.3 hits the streets and i have T9 2set bonus.

    Added Link to my current gear.

    7.12 edit: I've replace some of the original info with findings from followup posts. I have excluded Glyph of Disease from experiments, since it seems to be a bad choice for now, and looks like it will be in 3.3 too. Also updated with unholy subtree test results.

    I was wondring if other DW DK's could contribute to a few clarifications on optimal spec and rotation/glyph setups.

    All of my tests has been done on Boss dummy (single target) for atleast 3 mins.

    Original setup: 15/53/3

    I run with Glyph of Obliterate, Glyph of Frost strike and Glyph of Howling Blast

    For all setups i use KM/Rime procs on Howling Blast whenever, and if HB is not up, i use the KM on FS. Everytime all runes are on CD and RP is low, i use HoW.

    Note: If HB is off CD, and my FF is 2-4 secs from running out, i will always replace a OB with HB. This ensures
    1) HB will hit for the full dmg.
    2) It will keep up FF for the next full set of runes.

    The general rotation i run with is:
    HB-OB-BS-BS-Dump
    OB/HB-OB-OB-Dump
    Note: I don't use PS in this rotation at all.
    Generally i hit 3.7-4.0k DPS with this.

    If someone is willing to try out my suggested setup, and post some dps numbers here and compare them to their current 2h or dw setup dps, it would be great.

    Lets get a good discussion up here for the Dual wielding DK's.

    Added 7.12:
    Testruns with 3/53/15 seems promising for single target. Working rotation is:
    PS-IT-BS-BS-Dump
    OB-OB-OB-Dump

    This setup also should scale better with buffs in raid situations than the original (15/53/3) for single target. My current tests on 3 lvl80 dummies still seems to producer 1k higher dps in the original spec compared to the 3/53/15 (unholy subtree).

    /Bloodyhelln
    Last edited by Bloodyhelln; 12-08-2009 at 01:02 AM. Reason: Updated with thoughts on my old spec

  2. #2
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    You may want to move this over to the DPS forum, here: Damage Per Second Discussion - TankSpot

    You'll more likely get the right attention.
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  3. #3
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    Moved.

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  4. #4
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    Aaaah DW DPS, how sometimes I don't understand thee.

    As it stands now, DW DPS is really odd in the fact that it's theoretically sound and should do more DPS but sometimes really leaves the head scratching.

    The first thing I'm going to say is that if you're hitting 3.1-4k DPS, you're about that time to go away from Blood and put more points towards Unholy. May I perhaps suggest the 3/51/17 build? 3 points in Subversion, full Necrosis, and two points in BCB. It won't be as strong as the 53/18 build but it not as far off from it as one would think (We're talking about maybe less than 100 dps difference.)

    Secondly, Icy Touch will probably be your best come 3.3 so you can give a lot of power to your IT damage tick. That will probably be the glyph to go for come the patch day.

    Pestilence has been one that I increasingly dislike more and more because I simply do not like the mechanics behind the glyph. It comes FAR too close to your timer and if you miss a shot in any case, your diseases fall off in your rotation. A constant measure of IT/PS in your rotation allows you to insure that you will never ever lose that problem, at the cost of one Obliterate per rotation. In my view, it's worth it because having to miss on one of your rotations, have your diseases fall off and messing your rotation completely is not worth it.

    Howling Blast can only really be used for one thing in particular and that's dropping PS and using a one disease rotation: HB, OB, BSx2, FS dump, followed by HB, OBx2, FS dump. You're always refreshing your disease with HB. This build essentially puts up the main disease so most of your damaging skills in Frost hit harder however you sacrifice damage from Obliterate. This works fine with lower level gear but soon becomes obsolete.

    The main thing I'm now noticing is that you're using a full rotation with a spec that won't have diseases up when you do so. You run out of disease time in the middle of your second rotation and as such, your damage is lowered for half of your second rotation.

    The diseases would fall off at 15 seconds after you applied it. The fact that you're applying it at the start means that about 15 seconds, or in the middle of your second rotation, you lose IT, which is your bread and butter of the Frost Spec which hurts your final Obliterate and all of your Frost Strike dump.

    The rotation for a 15/51/5 build would be IT, PS, BSx2, OB, FS dump, followed by IT, PS, OBx2, FS dump so you constantly have your diseases up.

    Your problem really lies there to be honest. You need at least two points in Epidemic to pull off any of the mentioned rotations.

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  5. #5
    Thx for the input. I noticed today after reading your answer about the rotation, that i actually replace some OB with HB every now and then.

    Usally i get a Rime Proc and every time it does, i get the HB off right away. In that way i usally always have a HB somewhere in the middle of the standard rotation, and if i don't have a Rime proc, i will replace a OB with HB ofc.

    There might be a point im missing somewhere, i've heard it before, but never really understood it when people say that i should move to unholy like your suggestion 3/51/17 or the full 0/53/18. Can you explain the reasoning behind that?

    Also if you have an optimal spec for those two, can you link those? when you linke them, i can go have a go at the dummy again and see if it's changing anything for me.

    Also what glyphs do you use?

    If you get the time to do so, could you try my suggested spec/rotation and glyph setup? and record dps for over 3 mins. Run the same setup with your prefered setup and record the dps for comparison. Im curious how much the difference in dps is for you.
    Last edited by Bloodyhelln; 12-07-2009 at 12:40 PM.

  6. #6
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    GoD was really good in 3.2 because you could get 4piece T9 (disease crit on both diseases) and you could disease roll (establish diseases when your AP was at its highest and then refresh with Pestilence).

    Starting with 3.3, you can't roll and 4piece T9 works only with Blood Plague.

    The idea behind going Unholy subtree is that you need Epidemic, and Ravenous Dead, Necrosis, and BCB all scale with gear. On the other hand, because RP dump is last priority on DW Frost, that the extra RP generation of Butchery is not that useful, and Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction don't scale with gear.

  7. #7
    Very nice additions to the thread there. Thanks Sterbefall.

  8. #8
    Just did a test with the following setup: 0/53/18

    PS-IT-BS-BS-OB-Dump
    OB-OB-OB-Dump

    With Sigil of Virulence, which seems like a better choice for this spec.

    I ran it two times and 1st time i hit 3.2k DPS and 2nd time i hit 3.5k DPS.

    I can't really figure out what im missing still. I would expect the dps to be closer to 4k, but it's not even close to it. With the old 15/53/3 i was often close to 4k. So if what Sterbefall's statement is to be verified, i should go with this spec for the next raid and see how it scales.

    The only thing i can think of is that im running with 15/15 expertise, but im also doing that with the old spec. I did however see a lot of parries now and then, which seemed to trash the rotation for a while til i got it evened out using a BT. My hit is 310 and my crit without HoW is 27,18%.

    I will try the 3/53/15 now and see how the results are.
    Last edited by Bloodyhelln; 12-07-2009 at 02:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Test results with 3/53/15.

    PS-IT-BS-BS-OB-Dump
    OB-OB-OB-Dump

    I was using Sigil of Awareness.

    1st test run gave me 3.6k DPS.
    2nd test run gave me 3.6k DPS.

  10. #10
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    If you're doing this on Dummies, they're not the best test of DPS. You gotta try it in a Raid setting to get the numbers. Dummies are only good for rotation checks and to make sure you know how to do it properly. Most of the stuff in raids increase your damage by a significant amount.

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  11. #11
    Yep, i realize that now and some specs will for sure be better suited for a single target sustained dps and some better for mixes of aoe and single target.

    As far as i can see right now, the 15/53/5 (original spec) is all round strong for both aoe and single target, but may not scale as well in a raid situation.

    The 0/53/18 seems inferiour to my current gear setup compared to the 3/53/15. I have still to test on 3 dummies though. But it seems atleast to be as good as 15/53/5, but may scale better.

    Problem for me with testing in raids is that it's hard to reproduce the excact same setup for two or more situations.

  12. #12
    I tried out 3/51/17 and it produced 3.1k DPS as best for me duing 3 test runs with 3 mins each.

  13. #13
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    So, here's my question about the rotation. I run 53/18 currently, and have been struggeling with the procs

    Mostly I'm trying to figure out when the best time to burn KM + Rime procs.

    I do the standard IT - PS - Obl - BS - BS - FS Dump - obl - obl - obl - fs dump - and then restart since diseases are dropping off.

    So, I will be part way through the rotation, and KM/Rime will pop up before I get to burn BS. Do I continue and burn BS/BS first, and then burn KM/rime during the FS dump phase, or should I burn he before bs/bs so that KM can come up during frost strikes for more crits...

  14. #14
    I am pretty sure that KM/Rime procs fall low in the priority.

    Consider this:
    1) See a KM/Rime proc that will mess up your rotation, leading you to have to reapply diseases and possibly loose 2 deathrunes.
    2) See a KM/Rime proc and keep up your rotation. Once you reach dump you start off by HB and then Dump. This may lead to too much RP, but that's a luxury problem.

    I would definetely go with 2)

  15. #15
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    Number 2 is the best option.

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  16. #16
    RAWR numbers:

    15/53/3
    1 Disease
    100% uptime
    20 sec
    Blood Presence
    4 FS
    2 HB
    4 OB
    2 BS
    HoW buffed DPS 4209
    Raid buff DPS 4677

    3/53/15
    2 Diseases
    100% uptime
    20 sec
    Blood Presence
    1 IT
    1 PS
    4 FS
    4 OB
    2 BS
    HoW buffed DPS 3978
    Raid buff DPS 4437

    Raidbuffs
    HoW
    Battle Shout
    Leader of the Pack
    Improved Icy Talons
    Drums of the Wild
    Drums of Forgotten Kings
    Heroic Presence
    Flask of Endless Rage
    Fish Feast

  17. #17
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    Weird that it ranks it that high. I would almost want to say it's a gear issue because most math indicate that 1 Disease tends to lose it's lustre when you start getting decent gear.

    Means nothing come this patch where you really wanna get IT, OB and FS anyway so HB glyph goes buh bye.

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  18. #18
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    Glyph of Icy Touch = 20% more frost fever damage. Huuuuuuuuuuge change.

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