Prot Warrior having threat issues

[Trynthlas]

I am not a tank, I play balance druid as my main spec. So this question is for me to help out a warrior tank I raid with. He's been playing the role for 2+ years and is competent, but I'm not sure he's up to date with where some things may need to be for higher end content now.

Situation is that in raids we've had issues with one or more dps out-threating the tank even after a 1-2 second lead and we've also had problems with an OT pulling the boss off of him without taunting or trying to do so (ex: Pally tank finishes with sentries on Auriaya and then later aggros the boss off the Warrior). I have started to regularly assign a paladin to be ready to toss me Hand of Salvation to help with threat issues (no boomkin threat reduction ability, and talents don't seem to be enough).

Armory is here

Yes he's missing 1-2 gems and enchants, that's due to some new gear we got this past Tuesday in TotC 25...it was plate drops all night long. Not all of them are due to that, though, so it'd be helpful to know what should be stuck in there.

Solid tank, just needs to be caught up to current state of things I think.

Thanks in advance for help.

[Reichsadler]

Gear:
Looking at his gear he could use some more hit and expertise though even with his current hit and expertise he should not be having the threat issues you are referring to.
Talents:
his spec should not cause him to have threat gen issues of the degree you suggest though IMO he could do better shifting points around. Unless he is having survivability issues you might have him swap to a Deep Wounds spec.

I do not see gear or spec an issue though. Even as is he should be able to generate sufficient threat. my best guess would either be his rotation or his execution of his rotation.

A log of a fight (wws or World of Logs)would be more useful to determine what the issue might be IMO. He would benefit more if he came over himself and was able to go over the issue though rather than have a 3rd party do it.

[Domo]

I am not a tank, I play balance druid as my main spec. So this question is for me to help out a warrior tank I raid with. He's been playing the role for 2+ years and is competent, but I'm not sure he's up to date with where some things may need to be for higher end content now.

Situation is that in raids we've had issues with one or more dps out-threating the tank even after a 1-2 second lead and we've also had problems with an OT pulling the boss off of him without taunting or trying to do so (ex: Pally tank finishes with sentries on Auriaya and then later aggros the boss off the Warrior). I have started to regularly assign a paladin to be ready to toss me Hand of Salvation to help with threat issues (no boomkin threat reduction ability, and talents don't seem to be enough).

Armory is here

Yes he's missing 1-2 gems and enchants, that's due to some new gear we got this past Tuesday in TotC 25...it was plate drops all night long. Not all of them are due to that, though, so it'd be helpful to know what should be stuck in there.

Solid tank, just needs to be caught up to current state of things I think.

Thanks in advance for help.

His Glyphs are all wrong. In my opinion, he should have the following:

Glyph of Vigliance
Glyph of Blocking
Glyph of Shield Wall

All major glyphs.

I learned directly from TankSpot, if you are having threat issues, Glyph of Vigilance is the way to go. Plus have him cast vigilance on your highest dps.

[Smallwall]

Well some of it could be his spec. If he were to shave his points in protection and throw them into impale and deep wounds in the arms tree, and armored to the teeth and cruelty in the fury tree, his DPS would up and with it his threat. If you look at my spec it is the cookie cutter threat spec.

[Aggathon]

It is 100% his spec, hands down. He also needs to make sure he's getting his rotation down properly.

Spec/Glyphs:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

That setup will give him maximum threat generation. It has 5/5 shield specialization, 3/3 focused rage, and 3/3 imp HS, and 1 point in cruelty for a little extra crit as well. It also has the 5 best talent points for threat gen: impale and deep wounds. I do NOT include imp revenge in this spec or imp disciplines. The reason being is that devastate when glyphed is better threat than revenge, even spec'd. So instead since revenge is now the last priority and you really only hit it if you only have enough range for revenge and nothing else. I also took out imp disciplines because we're talking about max threat here. Therefore you can put the talents in shield spec to finish it out and then you have 1 point floating that you can put pretty much anywhere. I tossed it into cruelty but tbh it could go into revenge, or imp disciplines, or hell even puncture if you really wanted to.

HAVING SAID THAT. I do not think given the current state of warriors that sacrificing some survival and utility talents is necessary.

This is the spec/glyph setup that I most frequently use:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It has a nice mix between threat and survivability and is what I've used to tank everything in ulduar and ToGC with the exception of algalon where at first I put the points from focused rage into shield spec. I also use a completely different cleave spec for anub'arak adds, but that's neither here nor there.

With that setup you will still be revenging. You will use a priority rotation:
Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate, while keeping up heroic strike. I also use shockwave and conq blow on cooldown.

Does someone have the rotation picture? I was trying to find it but couldnt =/

[Unger]

I agree that his spec is really hurting him. Aggathon has given a pretty standard "deep wounds" spec that is pretty versatile. It will make a huge difference in your threat.

Not sure if you are aware, but you get good threat from damage shield so when you first initiate combat, pop shield block (especially with multiple adds).

Also, Heroic Strike and Cleave are not normal "special abilities". You can hit those to replace your next "white" attack (normal attack) with these abilities so you can effectively use 2 abilities at once (say a shield slam AND a heroic strike). You may already know this, but I thought I would point it out since most warriors who ahve threat issues dont use heroic strike (or cleave for multiple mobs) enough.

[Trynthlas]

I think the goal is to maintain utility and survivability and not just max threat I like the looks of the second spec you posted Aggathon, thanks.

For further look at stuff, here's link to WoL for XT, Kolo, Auriaya run we did tonight. (Also Ony25 and FL+3 but he didn't tank those...and also I didn't record them)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

[Aggathon]

If you want a survivability spec go with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[Gomarac]

I find that Rotation usually is the problem.. but Ive not had boss problems unless someone decides to blow a taunt or leaves their pet taunt up.

[Trynthlas]

If you want a survivability spec go with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

No no, I just meant we don't want to give up any survivability from the current spec if possible. He survives just fine unless something is already going wrong.

[Bulk]

I think the goal is to maintain utility and survivability and not just max threat I like the looks of the second spec you posted Aggathon, thanks.

For further look at stuff, here's link to WoL for XT, Kolo, Auriaya run we did tonight. (Also Ony25 and FL+3 but he didn't tank those...and also I didn't record them)
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't look like he used heoric strike at all in that parse. This is a massive problem - heroic strike is a MASSIVE threat and dps increase. He must must must use heroic strike as often as he possibly can - some tips are to bind it to his mouse wheel (up/down) so all he has to do is scroll to use it. Ideally for a warrior you should never see any "mele" hits in a parse, the most used ability should always be heroic strike (or cleave if tanking multiple ads)

[Aggathon]

^ What he said.

Although I will say I don't bind HS to mousewheel because I like to be able to regulate it depending on my rage levels/current threat. If I'm low on rage I'll stop hitting HS to make sure I have rage for shield slam, which is far more threat. So typically in my parses I do have melee hits, but HS is still my number 1 damage dealer, usually around 34%.

Also I have a really bad habit of constantly zooming in and out with my camera, so binding HS to the scroll wheel didn't work out too well.

[Xianth]

He should be fine without threat glyphs and a deep wounds spec. I use a defensive demo shout spec and defensive glyphs and I never have threat problems. He has a decent amount of hit and assuming he eats expertise food then his expertise is ok; if not, he really wants at least 26 expertise.

9 times out of 10 it'll be an execution issue:

- use vigilance wisely, on the highest threat DPS unless you really need quick taunt refreshes.

- Do you have any other prots in the raid? make sure they're not givign him vig when it's not needed cause it'll nerf his threat a lot.

- Heroic strike use is an art, make sure he doesn't macro it as he'll use up all his rage if he gets a few avoided hits. Likewise make sure he's using it at all. (Edit, just seen that he hasnt used it at all in the parse, so yeh, use it!)

[Xianth]

^ What he said.

Although I will say I don't bind HS to mousewheel because I like to be able to regulate it depending on my rage levels/current threat. If I'm low on rage I'll stop hitting HS to make sure I have rage for shield slam, which is far more threat. So typically in my parses I do have melee hits, but HS is still my number 1 damage dealer, usually around 34%.

Also I have a really bad habit of constantly zooming in and out with my camera, so binding HS to the scroll wheel didn't work out too well.

Same here, that and having PTT on my m3. I find it easy for me to get into a rhythm with it bound to a key so it's no problem

[Xianth]

Ideally for a warrior you should never see any "mele" hits in a parse,

That really depends on incoming damage, there's always some point where you need to back off the HS if you avoid several hits in a row as GCD abilities are a much better use of the rage.

[Aggathon]

That really depends on incoming damage, there's always some point where you need to back off the HS if you avoid several hits in a row as GCD abilities are a much better use of the rage.

Well yes, but he did condition the statement that it was "ideally" meaning ideal situations and he'd have the rage to keep HSing.

[Bulk]

Well yes, but he did condition the statement that it was "ideally" meaning ideal situations and he'd have the rage to keep HSing.

Indeed yes there are times when you shouldn't HS and just mele - when rage is lacking. I should have said

[Trynthlas]

I know there's a thread around here somewhere on warrior rotation and maximizing threat, but not sure which ones are updated/accurate for how things sit now. Anyone mind pointing me at it?

Thanks for the help so far, sounds like the main thing we're missing is Heroic Strike in the rotation (as much as possible/reasonable) and maybe some tweaks on the talents/glyphs.

[Trynthlas]

Here's a more specific question... What's more valuable point-wise for improving damage (and therefore threat): Armored to the Teeth or Impale? And, is Impale worth it without speccing into Deep Wounds?

[Aggathon]

ATtT gives me 794 AP unbuffed. I have 3916 HPs unbuffed. So about 1/5th of my total attack power is from that one talent alone. This AP buff is what makes devastate such an effective ability now. It is very important.

Impale: is also extremely important. Shield slam crits are pretty much the staple of warrior threat. If you are lucky enough to get a shield slam crit in your first 3 shield slams (which should be roughly a 20% chance from talents per hit, so about every 1/5 shield slams will crit) then you're pretty much savvy on threat. I once got a shield slam crit on my second shield slam (so shield block was up) on Hodir with the storm power buff. It crit for about 30k and I was good for threat for the rest of the fight, lol. But I digress. If you get impale, you should get deep wounds, because not only now did your crit do 20% increased damage, but you get even more damage from it from deep wounds.

These talents are all necessary for a warrior tank imo.