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Thread: Burnished Quel'Serrar

  1. #1
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    Burnished Quel'Serrar

    Burnished Quel'Serrar

    Anyone managed to snag this weapon and play with it? I have it, but I'm still not sure about using it over Titanguard or reg ToC Ardent Guard

    In comparison with the aforementioned weapons on the threat meters, it's pretty neck and neck with all 3. The weapon damage increase seems to make up for the lost STR from the Ardent Guard, and the lost hit/str from Titanguard.

    As far as the proc (around 3% avoidance, 1550 armor) seems to have about a 50% uptime. Basically, giving overall 1.5% avoidance, and 725 armor... The difference in stamina is neglegable (3 on AG, 4 on TG)

    Compared to Ardent Guard, which gives me about .60% avoidance and 448 armor, the QS seems to win out.

    Compared to Titanguard, I love the hit from Titanguard, but seeing that the TPS isn't any better, the hit isn't really making a difference, and it gives a LITTLE bit more avoidance than the Ardent Guard, but still not even 1%.

    I'm thinking even though the proc isn't up all the time, in the end, it gives more EH and avoidance than Titanguard or Ardent Guard. I feel lucky to have earned all 3 weapons, and I'm definitely a believer that ilvl isn't everything, but in this case, Blizz seems to have gotten the tanking weapon correct.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
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    You've got more luck then me. Sadly, I'm still using Last Laugh, and if Quel'Serrar drops in 25 man, I'm more then likely going to use it. Itemization usually is a little off in my own opinion, but I agree with you that the itemization on this weapon is pretty accurate, and damn good.

    And, with 50% uptime, sound's pretty good to me. ^.^
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    The QS is hawt. I use it regularly (still haven't managed a 245 AG). The proc has a very good uptime.

    Personally I do not care about the avoidance on the proc, it's the armor. Using clutch of fortification, legionnaires gorget, twin valks heroic ring, glyph of indom. and saronite plated legs gives me a ton of extra armor; factor in the the buff from QS and I'm looking at 31k armor.. so hawt.

    I would use a 245 AG before the BQS, but I would not roll on vs. another tank with a 232 or lower tanking weapon.

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    I've been struggling a lot as to whether or not I would use the heroic Ardent Defender over the BQS. And I've come to the conclusion that I would, because even though while the proc is active BQS is significantly better stat wise, when the proc isn't active it is significantly worse, I think the average ends up with AD winning. Other than AD I would probably take BQS over anything (well 'cept the weapon from H-Anub25 tribute chest, but I think AD might still be better than that).
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    I'm still waiting for Burnished Quel to drop for me, especially since our other tank for our Ony runs (a pally) doesn't want it... no luck, though, and I'm still using my annoying little Peacekeeper's chainsaw...

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    i got the (245) quel and the helm the same night (the first night the instance was available) and i have to admit out of the 4 weps i have it is my favorite i have titanguard argent whatever and the mace from 10 man thorium i LOVE its look and its proc i use it when i wanna have fun which is always my favorite wep
    I am actually older then your jesus i wish i could of known him....but i missed it. Godrick True Blood

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    Looking at ICC gear, I think I'll be using BQS until I get the 10 man ICC mace. +40 hit and higher weapon DPS = win.

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    Sorry about the wall o text
    Okay honestly this weapon just pisses me off so here's my thoughts on an imo PoS. 110 def rating = 0 thats ZERO EH and 0 guaranteed reduction and only 0.51 total reduction from a 1.62% gain across miss, dodge parry (not going to count block rating- only BV as BV is a pure mitigation stat when unhittable as I am). That's on my pali with 556 def. rating... Def ratings are subject to diminishing returns or you'd see everyone tanking with 700 plus def ratings, so unless if your tanking at a 450 def rating and using the proc to hit the cap...wtf are you thinking... that part is pointless.
    Not to mention Def rating is going to be removed from the game in it's entirity at a point in the near future and will be replaced with a mystery stat. The 1550 armor yeah that's nice on proc....1.48% dam reduct. with a whopping 74 stamina... hey there's this trinket, item level 200, that gives 126 stamina and 7056 armor with the same or better uptime.... has anyone not drawn the comparison..item level 200 trinket > BQS?
    Math wise for EH the only thing that makes this even remotely viable is the armor, and that's basing the assumption you'll even get to use the proc when is does happen. What does the proc really give you, 1.48% damage reduct for 10 seconds, so on a 30K hit it proc'd perfect and you took 444 less damage but in the long run did that really make any difference?
    Here's why I say that
    Fight takes 3 minutes you get hit every 2 seconds for 30k-
    armor reduction 444 *5 = 2220 damaged soaked per 10 second proc
    Added to it the avoidance from defense proc of 1.62% avoidance
    180 seconds = 90 hits@ 50% uptime = 45 hits proc'd - the other 45 you eat
    45*444 = 19980 armor soaked damage with
    45 hits @1.62 avoidance = .729 hits avoided = 21870 damage avoided
    19980 soaked plus 21870 avoided = 41850 avoided out of 2,700,000 damage or roughly 1.546% total damage mitigation overall on the whims of RNG proc.
    using Say Falrik's Wrist Chopper
    90 hits @1.53 avoidance = 1.377 hits avoided = 41310 damage avoided
    Plus 40 BV per hit *90 hits = 3600
    3600 blocked damage plus 41310 avoided damage = 44910 out of 2.7 mill damage or roughly 1.65% total damage mitigation overall guaranteed 100% of the time.
    Not to mention as a pally I get stam and spell power bonuses from the strength toss those perks aside though, for just the raw numbers an item level 232 axe is better than the PoS BQS. Hell with a good gem ILvL 219 peace keeper blade ends up with more stam and is damn near comparable Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft and at least it's guaranteed mitigation 100% of the time.
    Please see revamped vendor trash for what it is, a shard for an enchant on a weapon that is actually good, or 20 gold to help pay the repairs.

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    The uptime of sanctuary is about 80%. 1550 armor is about 5346 EHP at my levels (base I have 51637HPS fully raid buffed and 33956 Armor fully raid buffed when wearing 258Jug's and Glyph of Indom).

    5346 EHP is something like 160 stam (rough estimate, it may actually be more). For argument's sake lets say it's a 50% proc, meaning you average an armor equivalent of a 80 stam gain. That's now a weapon with 154 equivalent stam on it, on worst case scenarios.

    How is this bad?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    I'ma go ahead and post more, 444 damage absorbed from a 30k hit isn't accurate. Lets say it's 1.58% increased mitigation, and the original mitigation was 70% (+dstance +raid buffs, this is probably a lot higher though, just bare with me for argument's sake).

    at 70% reduction this means that a 30k hit would have been a 100,000 dmg hit unmittigated. Now change that to 71.5% and it's a 28500 dmg hit, which is actually 1500 dmg reduction. That is significant imo.

    Also, your overall damage absorbed is not only significantly off because of this, but you're also giving avoidance too much credit imo, this goes back to the old avoidance vs. EHP effects. Over time doesn't matter nearly as much as the parsel of time during which you might die, in which case you can't depend on avoidance.

    Now you also can't depend on sanctuary, and that is an issue, which is why I don't consider it BiS, I consider the 10M H-Anub weapon to be BiS, even though with sanctuary up BQS is better.


    Edit: I also don't think your comparison to trinkets is fair either. Titaguard is 232 and only has 78 stam whereas the 226 trinket from similar content has 162 stam and a nice dodge on use. Trinkets will always give better individual stats than weapons imo, it's just not how the game is designed, you might as well be complaining that bracers don't get as much health as BPs.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 12-18-2009 at 11:22 PM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    The uptime of sanctuary is about 80%. 1550 armor is about 5346 EHP at my levels (base I have 51637HPS fully raid buffed and 33956 Armor fully raid buffed when wearing 258Jug's and Glyph of Indom).

    5346 EHP is something like 160 stam (rough estimate, it may actually be more). For argument's sake lets say it's a 50% proc, meaning you average an armor equivalent of a 80 stam gain. That's now a weapon with 154 equivalent stam on it, on worst case scenarios.

    How is this bad?
    This is assuming your going to get hit (and from my understanding the proc time is vastly higher for warriors vs. pali's) during the proc time. You hit icehowl and he does stomp and you just lost your entire proc period stunned and running, returning BQS to a stat less sword. On a 2 second swing timer I've never been hit 5 times consecutively in a row unless stunned or afk, so on average of being hit maybe twice in a 10 second period 60% of your proc is wasted, unused and not benefiting you at all. Off tanking when the other tank has agro... wasted procs giving you nothing at all. Basically since it's an item that the proc relies on you physically taking damage from melee it's unreliable and really unfeasible to claim it actually has a beneficial stat when it procs.. When you factor in misses, dodges, parries, absorbs, shields, etc , realistically even with an 80 percent uptime your maybe only ever seeing useful applications of the proc 20-30% of that 80% time it's up and that's probably being generous. Where stats like strength, dodge, parry, block rating, expertise, hit, etc are always tuned in 100% of the time no matter what your doing and your always receiving their benefits. Not to mention the returns you receive from strength or agility etc from multipliers in your talent trees.
    I simply cant justify saying every once once in a while on a blue moon on Tuesdays when I drop the dog off to the groomer and the president farts and the exact same time a gnat landed on Gormok's ass, my sword procs when I actually take a hit and the 444 less damage I took really made a huge difference and actually say it was benificial in any way what so ever when my other weapon helps mitigate on every single attack.

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    WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU FOR OVER 9000, okay I'm going to break this into paragraphs and respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suicyco View Post
    This is assuming your going to get hit (and from my understanding the proc time is vastly higher for warriors vs. pali's)
    during the proc time.
    It's chance on melee hit, NOT chance to be hit that sanctuary procs


    You hit icehowl and he does stomp and you just lost your entire proc period stunned and running, returning BQS to a stat less sword.
    This makes no sense, can you please re-explain?


    On a 2 second swing timer I've never been hit 5 times consecutively in a row unless stunned or afk, so on average of being hit maybe twice in a 10 second period 60% of your proc is wasted, unused and not benefiting you at all.
    I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but if you continue this logic that's like saying your gear is completely worthless 60% of the time. Non-sequitor, doesn't make BQS a bad weapon.


    Off tanking when the other tank has agro... wasted procs giving you nothing at all.
    If you're not tanking then why does it matter at all?


    Basically since it's an item that the proc relies on you physically taking damage from melee it's unreliable and really unfeasible to claim it actually has a beneficial stat when it procs..
    Again, it's chance on hit, not to BE hit, therefore this is false in the first place, and secondly it does give a good deal of avoidance too from the defense portion of the proc making this argument null in the first place like... This argument is completely circular, it's like saying if you have avoidance than stats on your gear don't matter at all when you're not getting hit. I don't care about when I'm not getting hit, I care about when I will and DO get it, and re: all the armor discussion, armor is REALLY REALLY good, especially 1550 of it. As per my previous math, that can reduce a 30k hit by 1500 dmg, roughly. Blah blah armor rocks /broken record




    When you factor in misses, dodges, parries, absorbs, shields, etc , realistically even with an 80 percent uptime your maybe only ever seeing useful applications of the proc 20-30% of that 80% time it's up and that's probably being generous. Where stats like strength, dodge, parry, block rating, expertise, hit, etc are always tuned in 100% of the time no matter what your doing and your always receiving their benefits. Not to mention the returns you receive from strength or agility etc from multipliers in your talent trees.
    Are you seriously advocating that str and agi are more important tanking stats than armor?!!? 'cuz That's where this logic leads us.

    I simply cant justify saying every once once in a while on a blue moon on Tuesdays when I drop the dog off to the groomer and the president farts and the exact same time a gnat landed on Gormok's ass, my sword procs when I actually take a hit and the 444 less damage I took really made a huge difference and actually say it was benificial in any way what so ever when my other weapon helps mitigate on every single attack.
    80% uptime, it's way more than 444 less damage like... I'm sorry dude, no disrespect, but you are simply not correct here. I'm... having trouble even explaining how to answer you because the logic doesn't make sense.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I'ma go ahead and post more, 444 damage absorbed from a 30k hit isn't accurate. Lets say it's 1.58% increased mitigation, and the original mitigation was 70% (+dstance +raid buffs, this is probably a lot higher though, just bare with me for argument's sake).

    Even with those numbers the hard number is 1550 armor starting from a base line World Of Warcraft Armor Damage Reduction Calculator which nets 1.44 additional damage reduction so I may prove myself a little off here but I'll follow the numbers
    25K armor = 60.046% reduction = 75K hit * 60.046% = 29655K incoming
    26550 armor = 61.48% reduction= 75K hit *61.48% = 28890 incoming
    Difference of 765 points of damage..... my fault I was of by 300 points
    Extreme comparison 45000 armor = 73.01% reduction = 75K*73.01%= 20242.5 incoming
    extreme plus proc 46550 armor = 73.676% reduction = 75K*73.673 = 19745.5 incoming
    497 damage difference.

    The amount of armor is static no matter were you put the numbers into play so rather than taking a full 29655 hit @ 25K armor with proc @ 26550 you take a 28890 hit because the only time you will benefit from the proc is if you get hit. It's wasted on all other forms of mitigation aside from spill over from blocks where it's return is even smaller. With a difference of 765 damage that's roughly equiv to 77 stamina which is good, but I can think of so many more things you gain from regular hard stats on a sword/axe whatever that make the occasional extra 77 stam seem not that exciting.

    Edit: I also don't think your comparison to trinkets is fair either. Titaguard is 232 and only has 78 stam whereas the 226 trinket from similar content has 162 stam and a nice dodge on use. Trinkets will always give better individual stats than weapons imo, it's just not how the game is designed, you might as well be complaining that bracers don't get as much health as BPs.
    Chuckle I was comparing BQS to the black heart 126 stamina and 7K armor on proc which endears me greatly to it.
    Last edited by Suicyco; 12-19-2009 at 12:18 AM. Reason: increasing armor value

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suicyco View Post
    Chuckle I was comparing BQS to the black heart 126 stamina and 7K armor on proc which endears me greatly to it.
    I know, and I was giving a counter comparison as to why that's not a good comparison. Actually, the black heart's uptime is around 10-15%, because BQS's is so high, it might end up being better, but is at the very least competitive, and also... IT'S A TRINKET. You can't compare apples to oranges like that. Furthermore, your logic on the armor proc would go doubly for the black heart because the uptime is so low.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Oh and also, the uptime for sanctuary on palidans is actually higher b/c of SoV iirc.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis <- feel free to look around our logs, it looks like BQS has about a 47.7% uptime for me, so I was pretty accurate in my 50% estimation guesses.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    AK my edit got screwed up... ok so my wife gets on my ass about this all the time we're going to use you for our test subject

    You walk up to Wall o' Text Beast and hit it with BQS and it doesn't proc. Your Fully raid buffed with 33956 armor and 51K life. Wall o text hits you for 75K you dont dodge, parry block etc. so after armor mitigation of 67.119% you take 24,660.75 damage.
    You hit Wall o Text and BQS procs !!UBER WEAPON!! to the rescue! you now have 35506 armor mitigation and wall o Text hits you back for 75K again and again you fail to dodge parry or block your uber weapon cause you to only take 23908 damage YES!!! That was 752 damage that uber weapon ate. Or the equiv to 75 stamina.

    You've got BQS power now so your uber tank for the next 10 secs.. you doge wall o texts next attack while stabbin him in the nards, you parry his next one as you beat him in the head, he stumbles and misses cause you stabbed him in the eye, he hits you again.. but blessing of the ancient kings and sacred shield absorb the attack.... so in the whole proc period of 10 seconds it saved you from 752 damage.

    Ummm really? Seriously? Wow. yeah..... so even saying your getting hit full on 2 times per proc cycle it's only shaving off 1500 per cycle *6 cycles a minute assuming it's up 100% Thats 9K damage reduction theoretically over a minute. That's 1 flash of light. Over a 60 second period. My argument lies in the set guaranteed stats on most weapons out weigh the tiny benefit BQS sometimes can give you.

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    hit*[(1-%reduction armor)(1-%reduction dstance)(1-%reduction sanc)(1-%reduction priest buff)

    For the sake of argument, I'll assume that I use the weapon that has the next highest hit points that I would use, I would still use the 10M Heroic Anub arak weapon over BQS, so that doesn't really count. The next highest weapon that would give me the most stam is Sorthalis at 100stam with a 30 stam gem in it. That's 26 more STAM or (26x1.1x1.06x10=303 more hit points)

    Since I'm a full to dead kinda guy, we'll start the comparison here.

    75k hit then equals 19375.95 for without BSQ. I'd be at 32261 hit points
    BSQ procs (68.0961% reduction from armor while proc'd) I'd get hit for 18800.23 and be at 32837 hit points for a difference of 576 hit points, already almost twice as many hit points as the extra stam I'd get from sorthalis. I don't think I really need to go any farther to prove my point here.

    Even if only one of those 75k base hits is absorbed by sanctuary on my way down from full to dead, then I have more hit points, and am more healable (which btw, armor reduction calculates first, so armor actually INCREASES the effectiveness of shields and absorbs) than if I was using the next highest EHP option: which is sorthalis.

    If I'm min maxing, I'm taking this bet, because it is a good bet and total worth it. The armor proc wins, sir. If you don't want to take that bet that's your choice, and neither alternative is game breaking or anything, having good healers will save you more than the BQS proc will, but based on the math, it's probably better EHP than the other alternatives besides 10M H-Anub tanking weapon.

    Edit: though lets continue with this full to dead arguement, lets say I get hit with physical damage for the entirety of my hit points without heals. 51637/.258349 = 199873.3 unmittigated damage hit If I am able Lets say that BQS is up for half the time I'm getting hit so it averages out to 775 armor then I would only take 50882 damage instead of 51637, which is an extra 755 hit points, which is more than any other weapon gives me.

    Again, how is this bad?
    Last edited by Aggathon; 12-19-2009 at 02:32 AM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Caution that wall o text monster Aggathon was whoopin on came back

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis <- feel free to look around our logs, it looks like BQS has about a 47.7% uptime for me, so I was pretty accurate in my 50% estimation guesses.
    We'll say for arguements sake it was up 100%. Emalon did 339805 melee damage in that fight. So lets see with 100 % up time what the differences are.

    Melee 339233 92.0 % 17 11157.6 189680 14 10682.4
    149553 - 123393 23 6 14 58.1 %

    Okay so with 100% up time on BQS you dodged, missed, parried for 0 damage 58.1% of the time. So 58.1% of the time with 100% uptime Sanctuary did nothing as far as the armor buff goes. Ironically it gives full possibility that you never got the utilize the armor buff because statistically it's possible in the 44% it was up it was up during avoidance streaks being 100% ineffective as far as the armor goes. And this is were everyone will scream "IT WAS TEH DEF. BUFF THAT JACK HIS AVOIDANCE UBER HIGH which in return causes him to dodge bleh bleh bleh.... no no it didn't after diminishing returns he barely got .5% in any of his avoidance stats, no where near enough to say he even got 1 avoided hit due to the buff. .5% Avoidance will net you nothing, had it been say 200 dodge rating with the buff then yes I would consider that.

    BUT we are saying it was up 100% of the time so the remaining 41.9% of the time you received it's benefits fully .
    339233.... tsk tsk tsk.. you's has spikey damage like the Rocky Mountains....roll a pali we're unhittable pllllt (Yes I know we get "hit" just a cheap fun jab)

    So 339233 melee damage received through 31 hits = 10943 average damage a hit so working backwards assuming 100% uptime with your armor stats buffed to 35506 with BQS buff giving you 68.096% reduction
    10943 + 68.096% reduction = 34299.77 damage a hit unmitigated

    Where armor value of 33956 = 67.119% reduction so

    34299.77 + 0.997%= 34,641.33 <- The 0.997% is the actual physical difference between your starting armor mitigation and what is added to your armor mitigation when BQS buff is applied.

    34,641.33 X31 = 1073881.23 unmitigated melee damage pre buff
    34,299.77 X31 = 1063292.37 unmitigated melee damage post buff

    thats 10588.86 Damage soaked by QBS the entire raid melee assumming 100% uptime 10588.86/31 hits =

    100% uptime on BQS armor saved your life man 10588.86 damage soaked through BQS armor throughout the raid /31 hits = 341.576 damage per hit. That's why you keeled him ./flex BQS RAWR Assuming 100% uptime and armor applied to every hit.

    So in that fight it worked out to ah heck I'm generous.. 35 stamina... at 100% uptime.. I still say the fixed stats on almost any given weapon will equal if not squash that poorly tuned PoS. And for it to be a "HIGH" level top tier tanking drop it just sickens me. I like my wrist chopper, strength, block rating, def. rating, dodge rating, more stamina that that thing and at least I can look at my weapon and see that it's doing something for me stat wise all the time not just some of the time, god knows when or for what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    hit*[(1-%reduction armor)(1-%reduction dstance)(1-%reduction sanc)(1-%reduction priest buff)

    For the sake of argument, I'll assume that I use the weapon that has the next highest hit points that I would use, I would still use the 10M Heroic Anub arak weapon over BQS, so that doesn't really count. The next highest weapon that would give me the most stam is Sorthalis at 100stam with a 30 stam gem in it. That's 26 more STAM or (26x1.1x1.06x10=303 more hit points)

    75k hit then equals 19375.95 for without BSQ. I'd be at 32261 hit points
    BSQ procs (68.0961% reduction from armor while proc'd) I'd get hit for 18800.23 and be at 32837 hit points for a difference of 576 hit points, already almost twice as many hit points as the extra stam I'd get from sorthalis. I don't think I really need to go any farther to prove my point here.


    (Suicyco) :But you do need to go further: Your a blocking class, strength on that weapon is going to give you bv which in returns = less damage taken and again your assuming BQS is going to proc for you at the right time when you need it. A weapon with block rating is going to cause you to block even 1% more with an average bv of 3K your looking at 3000 hit points saved off of just 1 xtra block and dont say that 1 percent block is hypothetical cause your whole stance is on a hypothetical proc that may or may not happen when you need it. Please show me anywhere BQS can guarantee 100% it's going to do anything for you when you need it.


    Again, how is this bad?
    Because the stam king is living the avoidance dream... it'll be there when I need it...
    Last edited by Suicyco; 12-19-2009 at 03:37 AM.

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