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Thread: Pally threat? wheres the imba?

  1. #1
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    Pally threat? wheres the imba?

    I RL our guild's 2nd 10 man group and am a warrior tank. Reading up on the forum's i'm hearing alot of how pally threat is rather good, and how in generaly threat isn't something tanks need to worry about.

    what i'm slightly concerned about is that my DPS seem to be able to rip aggro off my pally co-tanks rather easily, and it not as if its any pally tank, its all of them, granted they're gear isn't Awesome, but then its not exactly behind the DPS either. And its not really an issue on the pull (since DPS dying on the pull is the DPS's fault). granted i have a hunter who takes extreme pleasure in riding my threat, but he has rather nice tools for controlling and understands that if he pulls something he tanks it, but i shouldn't have rogues or mages pulling threat half way through Jarraxxas. and it was very suprising when i stole aggro on dreadscale, i didn't have the rage to HS and nothing to dodge meant no revenge.

    they run a 0/53/18 spec, polisihing off cursade in ret and minimal points in SA and reckoning, hit capped. soft capped for expertise, runs glyphs of SoV, HoR, and AS.

    in short i have no idea why the threat isn't there, and am starting to believe warriors just put out fuckloads of threat. survivability doesn't seem to be an issue, should he chuck out a coulple of stam gems for str?

    or am i just too used to wow being easy, and is this constant threat "problem" just part of the game when your raids properly geared.

  2. #2
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    Gemming for STR won't do any good for what they are worth on gear.

    They should, use their Hand of Salvation cooldown to handle high threat people.
    Do they know what the 969 is? Their spec indicates such, but I can't tell from here they're doing it right.

    From my side, I've never had threat problems other than "Crazy arms warrior bladestorming 2 seconds into the pull" or "crazy warlock crit seventeen times in the last three nanoseconds.", and I don't gear for threat save the weapon enchant, it's all in the spec and rotation.

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    I'd agree with Synapse here - make sure they know what the "969" rotation is and are executing it properly. Paladin threat is very rotation dependent and it'll make far more of a difference than gemming Strength, wearing threat gear, putting in threat glyphs or anything else.

    If they both insist they're doing the rotation properly then maybe some combat log parses or their armories could help us identify the issue.

    Presumably your Hunters have MD up on the Paladin, Rogues are using Tricks on him, etc?



  4. #4
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    He seems to be maximizing his threat glyph-wise and is presumably talenting for threat. He's capped where he needs to be allowing for substantial threat increases...

    To mirror the last two posters, make sure Hand of Salvation is being used whenever available on those Warlocks that confuse Omen with Recount and make sure your raid is doing everything possible to further build that threat.

    Make sure the standard 969 rotation is being used as it's vital for Pally threat.

  5. #5
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    Is he running with Righteous Fury up? (When I forget to put it up is when I run into issues). 969 is vital, like the other posters have said.

    That being said, I've been having some issues, in some of the harder content, I just toss consecrate more. And tell the stupid warrior to hold back on his bladestorm. And remind the warlocks that being on top of OMEN = dead warlock.

    Threat management is as much a DPS issue as a tank issue, IMO. Occasionally, my boomkin will crit his pants....a Salv will solve the issue, at least until the next time he crits his pants.
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  6. #6
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    RF failure after a wipe is the only time I have issues. My gear is OK but not great but I can hold my own against better geared people, and it's all pugs (So I can't count on DPS behaving, such as MD/TotT, etc.)

    Just to clarify, is threat a problem on single target or multi-target? Glyphig AS isn't something I would pick, the benefits of glyph Divine Plea far outweigh it.

    Check if they are running out of mana, and their Divine Plea uptime. If DP is falling off and they are using consecrate heavily, they will soon go OOM. Using 969 ensure at HotR refresh well within the DP, and if you can refresh it 4-5 times, it will come off CD, which allows you to bridge DP between pulls/phases/etc. where you can't refresh it. Without mana, they may be falling behind on their 969, including consecrate. Incidentally, consecrate is a very mana hungry ability, it's something that should be dropped as needed. There are plenty of other things that can be subbed in, including AS as part of the rotation, Sacred Shield, various hands (taunt, salv, etc.),

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    RF failure after a wipe is the only time I have issues. My gear is OK but not great but I can hold my own against better geared people, and it's all pugs (So I can't count on DPS behaving, such as MD/TotT, etc.)

    Just to clarify, is threat a problem on single target or multi-target? Glyphig AS isn't something I would pick, the benefits of glyph Divine Plea far outweigh it.
    I agree w/ Insahnity. (I sound like a broken record, I know). RF after the wipe can be an issue, especially if a pally isn't running PP, which can be set to show that it is or isn't on. AS glyph increases single target threat, but loses the ability to grab two more mobs...I wouldn't use it. But that's my opinion. Personally, at the moment, I'm running RD, SoV, and DP. Of course, my spec showing up on the armory isn't right. I fixed it the other day. *sigh*
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  8. #8
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    There's many ways to look at this.

    Paladin's threat build-up is quite large and over a general area too, but to compensate their big emergency cooldowns are pretty much once offs which prevents them doing anything using Forbearance a lot or "extra lives" with Ardent Defender unless you want to hit the enrage timer or so.

    Warriors are the bread and butter of tanking. They have a median threat build-up, assortment of emergencies, and can AOE tank if needed. But there's a shortfall where they have no predominant "abilities" that would otherwise call them a special kind of tank. It really is a jack-of-all-trades kind of tank, in my opinion. AOE or boss tanking, there's no shortfall yet not dominating force either.

    Druid bear tanks have mass amount of health and can take mass amounts of punishment without need for Defence caps or much of the other stats. However their generation of threat lacks when it comes to AOE because all of that is generated in a frontal cone. Plus their threat build-up is scaled directly with their gear - going in a current raid with a lower-powered weapon spells disaster when having amplified damage battles (eg. Twins).

    Death Knights lose out with the generation of threat during the rune cooldown periods where everything is generated with white hits, dots and more of the same. Initial generation with Death and Decay is an invaluable thing for them but after that, they have to rely on instinctive rune-power to generate the rest. Not to mention their mitigation is stunted than the rest of the classes. To compensate, they have more emergency buttons with shorter cooldowns.

    So yeh, paladin threat is sought after yet there are reasons why raids can choose other tanks that just paladins.
    Healing is the source of life. Without it, you're left with death.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatabriOnEarthen View Post
    I agree w/ Insahnity. (I sound like a broken record, I know). RF after the wipe can be an issue, especially if a pally isn't running PP, which can be set to show that it is or isn't on.
    PP doesn't solve stupidity. I've forgotten it while running PP...

    I also forgot to mention, are they popping wings on the pull?

  10. #10
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    One other thing, make sure he is using the correct (max) rank for spell ie....conc and SotR. Also check to see if he is sealing corr/ven and not switching to get mana or heals during the fight.
    I really have never had a threat issue and I even have to be careful when our warrior starts the pull so I don't out threat him initally.

  11. #11
    However their generation of threat lacks when it comes to AOE because all of that is generated in a frontal cone.
    (nitpick)Swipe is a 360 attack now, yay(/nitpick)

  12. #12
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    Really? I thought it was frontal-ish because of the animation.
    Well in any case, the downsides of it still stands.
    Healing is the source of life. Without it, you're left with death.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    PP doesn't solve stupidity. I've forgotten it while running PP...

    I also forgot to mention, are they popping wings on the pull?
    I'd think we'd notice if they weren't putting RF back up; half the raid would be dead off the pull.


    Wings on the pull though...thats something they're gonna start doing.


    @Epsillion, keep in mind the various 'innate' damage reductions that each class has before slagging off DKs as having less mitigation, i've stolen the following from Satorri's Survival by the numbers thread;

    Total Dmg Rdx %'s:
    Warrior = 10% (Def Stance) + 3% (Raid) = 12.70%
    Paladin = 6% (Imp Righteous Fury) + 3% (Shield of the Templar) + 3% (Glyph of Divine Plea) + 3% (Raid) = 14.21%
    Death Knight = 8%* (Frost Pres, *10% for Frost) + 5% (Blade Barrier) + 3% (Raid) = 15.22% (17.07%)
    Druid = 12% (Protector of the Pack) + 3% (Raid) = 14.64%

    which does seem to put the DKs at a distinct adavantage. but they don't have shields and a shield is worth about +3~5% mitigation (according to GC at least) depending on class and gear and swing timers. warriors who arguably have the strongest block mechanics have the weakest passive Dmg Rdx, but over all it all seems kinda the same.

    also for your compariosn you're forgetting that prot warriors have shield slam which is one of the few(only) offensive dispels in the game, for everyone else dispelling is something they have to break rotations for, prot warriors forget about it as they do it anyway, sunder armours not exactly done by any other tank class, and of course spell reflect owns on some fights (mimiron for example?) and a virtual immunity to fears, traps and some other forms of CC, is pretty unique. as well as the insane mobility. they're pretty much the only desirable tank class for Faction champs.

    but this isn't a thread about comparing different classes. theres bajillions of them elsewhere. and it comes down to appleas and oranges in the end. No, what struck me was that you hear alot about how powerful pally threat is but i'm just not seeing it off my pallytanks, their threat seems weak compared to other tanks in the guild. i've peeled worms off of them while not even having the rage for HS... if this is the powerful pally threat then the community has failed to notice that DKs and warriors are even better. no i reckon something up with my pallies...

  14. #14
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    Would be nice if you can show what kind of gear they have and/or rotation "priority" they have. Reason I say priority and not rotation by itself is because there are people (not speaking for your tanks, directly) that just press some buttons but not others.

    Regarding the mitigation and threat thing, it's just based on speculation and not percentage/stats. Obviously there are people that exceptionally break the viewpoint.

    Utility is another factor to consider but a moot point because that wasn't what the discussion is about.

    Back on topic, yeh it does seem sussed if they've gemmed right and enchanted stuff yet don't play to the expectations of the gear.
    Healing is the source of life. Without it, you're left with death.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I'd think we'd notice if they weren't putting RF back up; half the raid would be dead off the pull.


    Wings on the pull though...thats something they're gonna start doing.
    How did you think *I* noticed that RF was down? I was fending off a 25 man raid full of very angry (and dead on the pull) DPS.

    As for Wings, it's a band-aid solution. You should not need it, it should be saved for DPS burn phases (or at the least Bloodlust/Heroism on first use and Hammer of Wrath range). Don't forget, wings results in forbearance, you just eliminated a pally survival CD for the next 2 minutes to help with initial threat, which I truly believe can be solved by other means.

    As I said before, I am regularly out geared by my DPS in PuGs and I still manage.

  16. #16
    This isn't a solution to your problem, more of a crutch, but don't forget as a warrior tank you can intervene to DPS to lower their threat by 10%. Its an ability you don't typically need during raids anyway(atleast not for its intended purpose) and its only got a 30 sec CD.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Don't forget, wings results in forbearance, you just eliminated a pally survival CD for the next 2 minutes to help with initial threat,
    Not true anymore,

    Avenging Wrath - Spell - World of Warcraft

    It causes a 30sec cooldown on DS now, it not longer causes or is stopped by Forbearance.
    Roll with the punches.

  18. #18
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    It's a half-forbearance =P

    Yet, no matter what is being said here, we REALLY have to see what they are doing.

  19. #19
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    Yeah and to add to that, i hate blowing Wings on the pull. If you are desparate for the threat you are better off getting your DPS to wait until you have a full stack of SoV and blowing wings then. Its a surprising amount of extra threat.
    Roll with the punches.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    PP doesn't solve stupidity. I've forgotten it while running PP...

    I also forgot to mention, are they popping wings on the pull?
    I ran a pug as a noob Prot Pally and got critiqued by an experienced tank for not using this, forgetting that, etc. I went out and got Power Auras which I configured to display static icons when utility cooldowns are ready, or odd things like Pumpkin Surprise can be used.

    For more important alerts I created in-my-face orbiting icons for moments like when Righteous Fury isn't on or Divine Plea is available again.

    Anything and everything that should be on or usable will either be at-a-glance or circling my toon begging to be attended to, all with their tool tips telling me what's what.

    I can't forget anything. It won't let me.

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