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Thread: Glyph of Indomitability V. Heart of Iron (Some actual math)

  1. #21
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    This back and forth discussion about Stam v. Armor theroy dose not preset any conclusions for the topic of this thread.

    Even if you used different base stats to do a compare on your own or included full raid buffs, the conclusion is still the same you are going to get more TDR and 1.01% dodge on use with the Glyph and more EH and Health with Heart of Iron.

    At this point I'm disregarding the dodge on use, since it is a "chance" and only 1% more.

    The real question:

    Is 0.54 TDR a lot or a little in the grand scheme of things?

    If the answer is yes it's a lot, then the Glyph may be worth using on physical fights.

    If the anser is no, then the Glyph losses hands down to Heart of Iron for any fight.
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 11-29-2009 at 02:43 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    Even if you used different base stats to do a compare on your own or included full raid buffs, the conclusion is still the same you are going to get more TDR and 1.01% dodge on use with the Glyph and more EH and Health with Heart of Iron.
    No, because the EH you get from the trinkets changes depending on your stats. More armor means the Heart of Iron provides more EH, while more health means the Glyph provides more EH. So if you have tons of health but not much armor, the Glyph will provide more EH. Obviously it will still lose in terms of actual health.

  3. #23
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    I will get some fully raid buffed stats tomorrow night in our togc 25 raid and post the numbers.

    I'm willing to bet that since buffs boost both armor and stam, it will end up being essentially the same. Sure the TDR and EH numbers may fluctuate a bit, but I highly doubt they are going to swing the + and - of each trinket around completely.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    The real question:

    Is 0.54 TDR a lot or a little in the grand scheme of things?
    In my opinion, not if the reduction in damage taken is less than the health you can gain.

    Lets say you take 2,000,000 damage in a fight. 0.54 TDR would mean that you would instead take 1,989,200 damage. That's only 10,800 more damage over the course of a 2,000,000 damage fight. That's like 1 holy light, over the course of taking 2 MILLION damage. I don't see this has being significant or a showing of easier healing at all.

    In fact, and what my point was originally, is that the leading cause of tank deaths is that they run out of hit points, meaning total damage reduced over the course of a fight means diddly anyways (especially when it's only 10,800 damage). That means they go from full to dead with little to no heals. There are 2 ways a warrior can prevent this (assuming every hit is guarenteed to connect, unavoidable damage, yadda yadda, bare with me here this isn't an avoidance debate right now). 1) they can have more hit points or 2) they can have more armor (slightly reducing the damage done).

    If you have an option between two items, and 1 item gives more HP than the other item reduces damage, then the obvious choice in my opinion is to take the item that gives you more HP since it means you are more likely to survive.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JokerFMJ View Post
    From what i'm getting it sounds like the two of you are saying the same thing but coming at it from different points of view.

    Agg is saying that having 75K HP will give healers more time to heal you so that you won't go down.

    Eza is saying that if you're armor is mitigating all of the damage your healers won't need to heal nearly as much.

    Both points are valid, but all of one and none of the other isn't a valid option as with no armor you'll get one/two shot and with all avoidance/armor and no health you're going to get RNG'd sooner than later.
    Basically, you just have to figure out of you have enough of both to survive a string of unavoided attacks. My point is that once you have enough of both, I feel armor is better because it requires less total healing throughput to keep a tank topped off.

    As for The Black Heart, I found that the up time to be too low to give up the on use provided by the Glyph of Indomitably
    Last edited by Ezanul; 11-30-2009 at 03:03 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezanul View Post
    Basically, you just have to figure out of you have enough of both to survive a string of unavoided attacks. My point is that once you have enough of both, I feel armor is better because it requires less total healing throughput to keep a tank topped off.

    As for The Black Heart, I found that the up time to be too low to give up the on use provided by the Glyph of Indomitably
    I would agree that in that situation armor would be better to smooth out heals once your past a point with HP for content. BUT, the math only shows a 0.54 TDR gain from the Glyph, which seems very small compared to the EH and raw Health of the Heart of Iron.

    In theory the overall views of stam and armor I agree with, but im comparing the amounts you get from these 2 trinkets to determine which is better.

    Still going to grab some buff numbers tonight to compare, but Im almost 100% that it will still show the same results, with the Glyph losing in every situation.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  7. #27
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    I think at your gear level you should be pretty safe with either. I use the glyph and have only 38.2k unbuffed HP and have no problems with heroic 25 beasts. If the EH is relatively the same, which in your case it is, the question comes down to personal preference. I use the glyph out of necessity since it is the best trinket I have, I don't have Heart of Iron or the Scarab. You should really ask your healers what they think and how the healing feels to them since from a survival standpoint you are sufficient.

  8. #28
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    To the OP: where exactly are you getting only +0.5% TDR from?

    The armor works out as a gain of about 4% less actual physical damage taken compared to without. For example, the trinket gives about 1.5% on your char sheet alone, so (rough figures but used to demonstrate):

    Without trinket = 65% Armor DR
    Total unavoided damage before armor = 1,000,000

    Actual damage taken after armor = (1 - 0.65) * 1,000,000 = 350,000

    With trinket = 66.5% Armor DR
    Total unavoided damage before armor = 1,000,000

    Actual damage taken after armor = (1 - 0.665) * 1,000,000 = 335,000

    TDR "gain" from having the trinket equipped compared to having stam:

    (3350000/350000) - 1 = 0.0429 = 4.29%


    Of course this is all academic, in terms of EHP there's very little to distinguish between them (0.3%) and the on-uses are very similar, so i'm pretty sure you will have equal success using either trinket.
    Last edited by Xianth; 12-02-2009 at 03:27 AM.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianth View Post
    To the OP: where exactly are you getting only +0.5% TDR from?
    I used my base tank gear with Heart of Iron. Ran the numbers through the EH calculator here on tankspot.

    Then with that same base gear I plugged in the extra armor from the Glyph, subtracted the health from the Heart and did the calculation.

    The calculations provided a EH number and a TDR number.

    0.54 TDR was the difference between the 2 calculations (after I had removed the bonus +12% to armor which I concluded in a later post that you do not get from trinkets) with the Glyph having more. 0.54 TDR more.

    I did not remember to grab numbers from my buffed stats last night. Ill try and remember to grab them tonight.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  10. #30
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    Xianth, can you please post screenshots and/or buffed stats/stat decreases and justify your math... I can't figure out what is wrong, but something is bothering me. I cannot for the life of me figure out why 1.5% damage reduction by armor (0.65 vs 0.665) would end up with roughly 4.5% reduced damage, that just doesn't make sense to me.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Xianth, can you please post screenshots and/or buffed stats/stat decreases and justify your math... I can't figure out what is wrong, but something is bothering me. I cannot for the life of me figure out why 1.5% damage reduction by armor (0.65 vs 0.665) would end up with roughly 4.5% reduced damage, that just doesn't make sense to me.
    Because for the effects you have to look at "remaining damage".
    With 65% damage reduction, 35% of damage will get through. (the original situation.)
    With 66.5% (65+1.5) damage reduction, 33.5% of damage will get through (the new situation)

    How does the new situation differ from the old: ease, you look at how much damage you now get and divide it by the damage you would get in the old situation.
    Which would mean divide 33.5% by 35%: 33.5/35=0.95714 which is 95.71%.
    So, in the new situation you get 95.71% damage compared to the old situation which is 4.29% less damage.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Because for the effects you have to look at "remaining damage".
    With 65% damage reduction, 35% of damage will get through. (the original situation.)
    With 66.5% (65+1.5) damage reduction, 33.5% of damage will get through (the new situation)

    How does the new situation differ from the old: ease, you look at how much damage you now get and divide it by the damage you would get in the old situation.
    Which would mean divide 33.5% by 35%: 33.5/35=0.95714 which is 95.71%.
    So, in the new situation you get 95.71% damage compared to the old situation which is 4.29% less damage.
    Yeh, gains should be calculated on the damage you actuallty take and not in the overall mitgation. It's just like avoidance works, if you go from 98% to 99% avoidance you will take half as many hits as you did before. Just realised I got those back to front so was calculating in the opposite direction, but the example still shows there's about 4% gain anyway

    For example (with rough example figures again), when you get hit for 33K in ToGC what you're not seeing is that you're actually getting hit for 100K with 66.6% armor reduction. So, when you get 1% more armor reduction you are reducing the overall damage by 1%, so 1000 damage. However, as this gain eats into the damage you take, it'll be a 32K hit instead of a 33K hit, which is rougly a 3% difference.
    Last edited by Xianth; 12-02-2009 at 03:29 AM.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    0.54 TDR was the difference between the 2 calculations (after I had removed the bonus +12% to armor which I concluded in a later post that you do not get from trinkets)
    Well something is certainly a miss, seeing as that number should at the very least be as much as the gain on the char sheet (roughly 1.5% at ToC gear levels).

    Also, i'm fairly sure that talents and the meta work on bonus armor on trinket and rings etc. If you check in game (unbuffed) just stick the glyph on and you should gain almost exactly 2k armor. I'm positive it's been dicussed on these forums somewhere too, but I have no idea where.

    I'll check tonight if i remember.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  14. #34
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    Ahhh I see, that makes sense now.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianth View Post
    Well something is certainly a miss, seeing as that number should at the very least be as much as the gain on the char sheet (roughly 1.5% at ToC gear levels).

    Also, i'm fairly sure that talents and the meta work on bonus armor on trinket and rings etc. If you check in game (unbuffed) just stick the glyph on and you should gain almost exactly 2k armor. I'm positive it's been dicussed on these forums somewhere too, but I have no idea where.

    I'll check tonight if i remember.
    I checked on: character planner . chardev seven

    It basically allows you to upload your armor profile and then swap items as if you had them and equipped them in game.

    It shows no multiplicative increase from talents or the meta, whereas it does show an increase on normal item slots such as Helm, Chest, ect..
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  16. #36
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    400 EH is ... nothing... So for this difference, Damage reduction is better than health.

    If you need more health that the amount necessary to be still alive after the maximum peak of damage you can take during a fight, it is just that your healers aren't ready for the fight.

    If they are, damage reduction is better than health.

  17. #37
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    This information in the following link pretty much set the last nail in the Glyph coffin for me, it even has numbers to go with the statements:

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...ve-health.html
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    This information in the following link pretty much set the last nail in the Glyph coffin for me, it even has numbers to go with the statements:

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...ve-health.html
    "Better" in that case only refers to which grants the most EH. The glyph still has one of the better clicky buffs, as well as the advantage of reducing damage instead of just soaking it. Note that it only compared it with the black heart and satrina's impeding scarab; the heart of iron falls somewhere in between (meaning it's not completely outlandish to see the glyph have more EH, especially for a warrior or DK).
    That satrina's will almost always provide more EH than the glyph is not much of a surprise.

  19. #39
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    Satrina's Impeding Scarab = 192 Stam
    Warrior (Scarab) = 2035 health
    Paladin (Scarab) = 2198 health
    Bear Druid (Scarab) = 2798 health
    DK w/ 3/3 Vot3W (Scarab) = 2096 health
    DK w/o Vot3W (Scarab) = 2035 health

    None of the classes have a modifier that will change the 1792 armor from the emblem trinket on the baseline (only CD buffs).

    In lieu of calculating the value for each class, I'll use 2100 as an average value as the tilt will be very small, even for bears. It will only be on the magnitude of a couple hundred effective health difference for all but bears, and ~1k for bears.

    The new math suggests:

    * If you have 42k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 19.2k armor.
    * If you have 45k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 21.8k armor.
    * If you have 48k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 24.3k armor.
    * If you have 27k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 51.1k.
    * If you have 29k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 53.5k.
    * If you have 31k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 55.8k.

    So, even without considering magic damage, against physical damage, the stamina trinket will give you more effective health than the armor trinket at most reasonable tank stat values.
    The Satrina's in that final comparison was the non-heroic one only 192 stam. Which is only 30 stam more than Heart of Iron. It also referenced the Glyph in that final comparison.

    I could be miss understanding the break down, but given my current gear it shows that Stamina would benefit more than armor (at least for me). So I completely agree with the 2 trinkets in this debate are situational, but it would seem the situation is more what gear you have to compliment the trinket and not the encounter itself.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    The Satrina's in that final comparison was the non-heroic one only 192 stam. Which is only 30 stam more than Heart of Iron. It also referenced the Glyph in that final comparison.

    I could be miss understanding the break down, but given my current gear it shows that Stamina would benefit more than armor (at least for me). So I completely agree with the 2 trinkets in this debate are situational, but it would seem the situation is more what gear you have to compliment the trinket and not the encounter itself.

    Mathematically better in terms of actual EH value, as opposed to this debate over more EH vs. more dmg reduction.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

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