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Thread: Glyph of Indomitability V. Heart of Iron (Some actual math)

  1. #1
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    Glyph of Indomitability V. Heart of Iron (Some actual math)

    Currently I run with Heart of Iron and Satrina's Impeding Scarb. I decided to crunch some numbers to see if Glyph of Indomitability would be an upgrade to my Heart of Iron.

    Using the tankspot EH calculator here I plugged in my un-buffed stats to create a base using my standard tank gear, Heart of Iron and Satrina's (non-heroic) and then changed the values to remove the HP from Heart of Iron and add the Armor from the Glyph, results are as follows:

    Base Stats (Standard Set w/ Satrina's and Heart)
    Health: 41256
    Armor: 27891
    Block Value: 1323
    Dodge: 26.50%
    Parry: 20.97%
    Miss: 6.56% (+5% to account for the base Miss rate most NPCs have.)
    Total Avoidance: 59.03%

    Results (Warrior)-
    EH: 126632.10
    TDR: 86.22

    Comparison (Standard Set w/ Satrina's and Glyph)
    *I have added the +10% armor from talents and +2% armor from meta modification to the base armor of the glyph into the final armor total.
    1792 Base +12% = 2007.04 total armor from Glyph.

    Health: 39539
    Armor: 29898.04
    All other stats remained the same.

    Resluts (Warrior)-
    EH: 127003.51
    TDR: 86.82

    Conclusions:
    Heart of Iron
    +1717 Health

    Glyph of Indomitability

    +371.41 EH (Effective Health)
    +0.60 TDR (Total Damage Reduction)
    +1.01% Dodge on Use *( At lvl 80 Heart of Iron provides 6.04% to dodge on use and the Glyph with 7.05%)

    It looks like the Glyph has a large edge on Heart of Iron for non-magic fights, but still feels lacking.

    At this point I wonder if The Black Heart has a larger advantage over the Glyph with its static base stam and steady armor proc of 7056.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 11-26-2009 at 08:57 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    My head still hurts....I just finished reading this~Maintankadin • View topic - "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH

    If you like math and numbers you will find your answer, if you don't, STAM is never bad. I too feel the Glyph is lacking.

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    I edited the original post to reflect the correct math (I originally did not figure in the armor bonus from talents and the meta) and welcome any additional opinions/comments on the findings.
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 11-26-2009 at 11:38 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    My philosophy on trinkets has always been on a per fight basis. Some fights reward bonus armor. Some are magic damage heavy, and reward stam stacking. Some reward avoidance. etc, etc. Too many players get it in their head that they tank in one set of *best* gear, and that's it. The truth is you move pieces around, especially trinkets, since those are easy to swap.

    So look at the fights, and decide. Here's what I do in ToGC with what I have available.
    Beasts - Juggernaut's, glyph of indom
    Jaraxxus - Juggernaut's, glyph of indom
    Faction Champs - I wear a block set that still maintains decent expertise and hit, so block trinkets.
    Valkyr - Juggernauts / heart of iron
    Anub'arak burrowers - specialized unhittable gear.

    For standard bosses I like the glyph, and like bonus armor, yet on 3 out of 5 fights in ToGC, I'm using something else. I haven't been on ptr enough to know what ICC bosses will be like.

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    As always i'd choose the glyph for any fight that was predominantly physical damage which is most of them. People just feel less safe because they don't see a bigger number on their char sheet, but you'd be taking 4% less damage with the glyph than you would if you had the heart of iron equipped.
    Xanth <Valkyria>

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    you should really re-do the math at raid buffed levels. It actually does change the outcome of the EH calculations.

    Also, I've run these calculations before and have gotten very different results. Being that it's 7:30am I can't really find many people to get me raid buffed stats, but here's my unbuffed stats:

    Heart of Iron:
    42216 HPs
    29146 Armor
    EHP:129091.32

    Glyph of Indominability:
    40496 HPs
    30838 Armor
    EHP:128678.90

    According to these stats taken from in-game (so talents and all that good stuff are taken into account), the heart of iron is about 412 MORE EHP than glyph of indom unbuffed. This is of course for warriors, the stam scaling is better for every other class, 'cept maybe frost DKs indom would be better, but I can't really speak much to that theorycraft.

    Also: as I suspected and according to those end game stats, trinket armor is not multiplied by talents. As I recall trinkets, jewelery, and enchants that give +armor are not modified by class bonuses. I think they changed this back in naxx because druids had such absurdly high amounts of armor. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this to be accurate.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 11-27-2009 at 05:52 AM.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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    Trinkets should always be selected on a Fight per fight basis.

    Glyph rocks for anything physical based, it's really an amazing trinket for NRB, even if it doesn't convey much benefit for the worms beyond the "on-use".

    The HoI vs. GoI debate is truly a stam vs. armor debate. Balancing of these two stats changes from encounter to encounter; really the trinkets, simply a microcosm of this over-arching gear balancing equation, need to be viewed in the same way.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
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    Armour is great against mainly melee bosses, but completely worthless in magic based fights. Hense I'd switch between the two based on requirements.

    Just wear Heart of Iron while looking for pugs. Because that's all they look at. Switch while in the instance if you prefer - no-one will notice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drae View Post
    Trinkets should always be selected on a Fight per fight basis.

    Glyph rocks for anything physical based, it's really an amazing trinket for NRB, even if it doesn't convey much benefit for the worms beyond the "on-use".

    The HoI vs. GoI debate is truly a stam vs. armor debate. Balancing of these two stats changes from encounter to encounter; really the trinkets, simply a microcosm of this over-arching gear balancing equation, need to be viewed in the same way.
    Trust me, I loves me some armor(I am engineering and refuse to switch to JC or anything else b/c I love the glove enchant), but if the EHP gap between the benefit from armor and the benefit from stam is that high, then armor doesn't actually add more benefit, unless it is damage that is unhealable, which NRB isn't(as long as you have the EHP to take it, which by using the armor trinket in this case you are giving yourself LESS EHP, thus making it more likely (though I will admit an extremely marginal chance) that you might die), and stam applies to all aspects and every phase of the fight.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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    I'm considering the Impale application damage reduction from armor, as well as head-butt.

    From what I understand the Impale application is mitigatable, but the dot is not.

    I stacked armor like crazy for NRB the past two-weeks, Saronite legs, all jewelery and trinkets with armor on them, QS for proc, etc. etc.(I'm still around 49k buffed hps) While I haven't compared logs yet, my healers commented it was easier to heal then normal on both gormok and icehowl. Which makes sense, I still have more then the minimum EH requirement, and now actually taking less damage then previously.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
    Drae

    http://www.zetbit.com/sig-1454507.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Trust me, I loves me some armor(I am engineering and refuse to switch to JC or anything else b/c I love the glove enchant), but if the EHP gap between the benefit from armor and the benefit from stam is that high, then armor doesn't actually add more benefit, unless it is damage that is unhealable, which NRB isn't(as long as you have the EHP to take it, which by using the armor trinket in this case you are giving yourself LESS EHP, thus making it more likely (though I will admit an extremely marginal chance) that you might die), and stam applies to all aspects and every phase of the fight.
    Raid buffs will lessen or reverse the gap since they buff stamina more than armor. Also, a gap of 400 EH is not really that huge; it sounds like a lot, but only because EH is an inflated number compared to regular health (400 health is way better than 400 EH).

    Besides that, armor has an added benefit compared to stamina: It reduces damage taken. Stamina only soaks the damage. This means armor, like avoidance, will reduce how often you run into trouble health-wise, as well as increase your ability to survive that trouble just like stamina does.
    So for a physical damage encounter, I'd often be willing to trade from stamina to armor at a small loss of EH, as long as it wouldn't take me uncomfortably close to the EH requirement of the fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Raid buffs will lessen or reverse the gap since they buff stamina more than armor. Also, a gap of 400 EH is not really that huge; it sounds like a lot, but only because EH is an inflated number compared to regular health (400 health is way better than 400 EH).

    Besides that, armor has an added benefit compared to stamina: It reduces damage taken. Stamina only soaks the damage. This means armor, like avoidance, will reduce how often you run into trouble health-wise, as well as increase your ability to survive that trouble just like stamina does.
    So for a physical damage encounter, I'd often be willing to trade from stamina to armor at a small loss of EH, as long as it wouldn't take me uncomfortably close to the EH requirement of the fight.
    Trust me, I am VERY well aware of the above stated facts. Furthermore, I've run the calculations while raid buffed too (like I said I just didn't have anyone around to give me buffs being that it was very early in the morning) and heart of iron STILL came out ahead.

    EHP is all about how much damage you can take from full to dead. It converts HP and Armor into a magical "EHP" number that is the converted hit points of damage we would be able to take if we had no armor (hence 120k EHP being far more thant he 40k hps we actually have). So yes, obviously 400 is an inflated number, but it is still higher. If you are talking about the ability to take damage without heals and still survive (since the leading cause of tank deaths is running out of hit points) then 400 EHP more is still more survivability, regardless of if it comes in the form of stam or armor. Yes, you may be easier to heal because it is absorbed damage rather than damage that you need to heal, however it is still less overall survivability.

    Does this all really matter? No, not really. Once you have enough EHP you can pretty much swing it as stam or armor and just be fine.

    In re-cap: Yes: armor basically means that you absorb damage instead of having to be healed, however you still end up having marginally lower overall survivability from the "full to dead" side of things if you have less "EHP"
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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    The trick to the armour trinket is that at times, it's effects can be multiplied. When you're looking at Gormok, the damage that's going to kill you is physical. But also, it's getting hit by a number of effects at once that's going to put you in danger.

    So while a stamina trinket may give you overall better EH for any single blow, the armour is going to reduce the damage of the melee swing and impale. Obviously, it doesn't help on the bleed tick, but reducing the damage of a melee and an instant attack at once is particularly helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavtor View Post
    The trick to the armour trinket is that at times, it's effects can be multiplied. When you're looking at Gormok, the damage that's going to kill you is physical. But also, it's getting hit by a number of effects at once that's going to put you in danger.

    So while a stamina trinket may give you overall better EH for any single blow, the armour is going to reduce the damage of the melee swing and impale. Obviously, it doesn't help on the bleed tick, but reducing the damage of a melee and an instant attack at once is particularly helpful.
    The problem is that the damage it reduces those attacks by is less than the hps gained by the heart of iron, that's what the EHP calculations are all about!
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Also: as I suspected and according to those end game stats, trinket armor is not multiplied by talents. As I recall trinkets, jewelery, and enchants that give +armor are not modified by class bonuses. I think they changed this back in naxx because druids had such absurdly high amounts of armor. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this to be accurate.
    If the base armor on the Glyph is not subject to altercation by the +12% (talents and meta) then it changes the results.

    Originally I had calculated the comparison without the +12% and put the Glyph at a mediocre:

    +0.54 TDR
    +1.01% to Dodge on Use

    That was the only gain it had on Heart of Iron which had:

    +215.5 EH
    +1717 Health

    So if the armor is not subject to change on the glyph, by these numbers it would appear that Heart of Iron would win in every application.

    That is unless 0.54 TDR carries more weight than the EH and Raw HP of the Heart. The on use is good, but is only 1.01% better than Heart.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    I would like some more opinions here if anyone cares to comment.

    I'm mostly interested in if 0.54 TDR (Total Damage Reduction) is a lot or a little.

    I'm also thinking that The Black Heart may have both these trinkets beat since it has Stam and Armor (in the form of a proc). Now had it been a lower proc I would have dismissed it, but 7K is a ton.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    In re-cap: Yes: armor basically means that you absorb damage instead of having to be healed, however you still end up having marginally lower overall survivability from the "full to dead" side of things if you have less "EHP"
    Yeah, but "full to dead" survivability is not the only thing that matters. It's the most important one, even by a very wide margin, but not the only one. If you have more avoidance for example, that does nothing whatsoever for your "full to death" survivability, but it does still help you survive. In the same way, the fact that armor mitigates damage instead of soaking it gives you a (small) side benefit compared to stamina. So eg. 4000 EH from armor > 4000 EH from stamina/health, as long as we are talking physical damage. In my opinion, 4000 EH's worth of armor could even be better in many cases than 4500 EH from stamina/health.

    I'll recap my post too: Armor = EH (usually applied) + side benefit, Stamina = EH (always applied) + nothing.

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    It might be better, but without heals you're still dead if you run out of EHP, regardless of if it is armor or stam. My entire point is that even if you take less damage, if you have less hit points than the decrease in damage intake, you are still going to die with no heals. Hence the "full to dead" argument.

    And you can't really convert avoidance into EHP because it's RNG based, so making that comparison is both pretty hard and well... /toc broken record.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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    If you have enough EHP to survive the burst damage then I think armor is better because it reduces required healing throughput.

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    From what i'm getting it sounds like the two of you are saying the same thing but coming at it from different points of view.

    Agg is saying that having 75K HP will give healers more time to heal you so that you won't go down.

    Eza is saying that if you're armor is mitigating all of the damage your healers won't need to heal nearly as much.

    Both points are valid, but all of one and none of the other isn't a valid option as with no armor you'll get one/two shot and with all avoidance/armor and no health you're going to get RNG'd sooner than later.

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